T Nation

Boxing Efficiancy

[quote]humble wrote:

I’d much rather be a skinny little runt who can open up whoop ass cans than be a heavy guy who looks the part but can’t do shit. Alas, I am doomed with mesomorph genetics where I sniff a weight rack and the kilos pack on.

Don’t worry about losing muscle, the new found mobility, springiness and ability to smoke fools should they mess with you will give you a better confidence than strutting around with a pair of 18 inch arms.[/quote]

LOL, you know, I was going to say this, but being on a bodybuilding site I didn’t want to come off as “anti-weightlifting.”

But this is really so true. If you can box, and you can fight, and you really start KNOWING that you can fight, that need to be huge that you feel kind of fades and your self-confidence skyrockets. You don’t look at big guys in a bar and get intimidated, or guys that break your balls if they’re bigger than you.

“Ah pussy, you can only squat 225, blah blah blah.”

“Yea…true… you wanna get in the ring?”

Amazingly enough, they shy away from this pretty quickly hahaha.

There’s a reason that the best fighters have that attitude that they can’t be beaten, no matter how small they are.

Haha I wish my coach was Joppy but I don’t wanna even ask what his prices are. my coach is another highly experience guy who I believe has had a few pro fights and is a great guy.

I ran my first two miles today in like 19 minutes I wasn’t pushing it really but it wasn’t too easy. What sucks is my shins were hurting and I feel like its shins splints which fucking sucks. I refuse to not train so they better heal because tomorrow I am running another two miles and cutting time off

Fighting Irish man your dead on with the size and strength becoming irrelevant to a degree. I came into this gym kinda cocky thinking I was bad ass cause I could dl 500 lbs squat almost 400 and bang out weighted dips with 135 lbs in plates. Now I am stiff as fuck I wish I could time travel but whatever just another challenge trying to loosen up.

So all those people who say weightlifting doesn’t make you stiff yeah thats bullshit and I did mobility work every day and still ended up stiff. You don’t really realize how stiff you are until you try to perform a task that requires more athleticism then pure strength.

On the rotator cuff issue…

Ease into it and see how your body responds. These things are very individual and what may cripple the next man may work wonders for you. That said, if it DOES start acting up DO NOT push through it. A fucking fuck load of boxers have shoulder issues; it’s a very shoulder-intensive sport. If you’re not built for it, don’t do it.

I disagree with irish that anything more than a infrequent 5/3/1 routine will be too much. That said, a typical BB’ing split and volume in general is commonly far too much.

I moved up from light middle, to LHW using a 4 day split that focused on explosive strength, and I didn’t find it draining at all. Keep in mind however, I’m not sure what age you are, but at 20 years old, I’m probably very young in comparison and I don’t have too many issues with recovery, and during this time, I fought VERY infrequently compared to most amateurs which probably helped considerably.

I didn’t do much roadwork during this period (because I am a lazy fuck and I hate jogging with a passion) but I did do lots of sprinting, and i still did long periods of rope work. I really should do more roadwork, because my endurance has always been a “could be a lot better” factor.

To be honest, what burnt me out the most was the sadistic and stupid training programs that some of our assistant coaches (who weren’t boxers, but football trainers iirc) put us through. The endless circuits of punching air with dumbbells and doing other awkward, extreme rep stuff with light weights might have built mental toughness, but it got to a point where I had to say “enough is enough, we’re not spending enough time on sparring and pad work”.

I hate punching with dumbbells, fucking hate it.

OP. Irish gave you some good tips. I can add/emphasize a few things.

FWIW, I started boxing again after not fighting (boxing) in 8 years. It feels great to get back in and do a serious workout and hit pads.

Cardio is king dude. KING. I wouldnt emphasize weights for a while, your strength will stay with you for the most part with minimal maintenance. It helps, but its not a concern for you at all. Your concern is getting in shape and learning TECHNIQUE.

Newbs love to hit the bag, and frankly, most people I see doing bagwork fucking dont do it right.

what helped my skills alot, was shadowboxing ALL THE TIME. I am not talking about a few rds here and there. I would do up to an hour of rds of shadowboxing. Mix it up, pretend youre Ali one rd, jab-cross and sticking and moving, then Frazier, bobbing and weaving, working inside the next. Its a good low impact way to train your cardio too.

OP, feel free to listen to what these people say about me, but take into consideration that Irish is a man with anear crippled shoulder from a poorly thought out training regime, he ruined his shoulder to the point that he has admitted on this site that he doesn’t plan to participate in future competition because of it, that he cant throw a real punch without it coming out of place. A guy who for my knowledge has never posted a picture of himself, probably due to physical deformity.

The guy is half a cripple and you should take that into consideration before taking anything he says too seriously. Listen to Irish if you want a fucked up bum shoulder that ruins your chances of ever fighting professionally but if you want to be pro at mouthing off like an internet tough-guy warrior, take notes on the shit he constantly says.

Why is it that 90% of people on this site have profile pictures of themselves, but the tough guy warriors in the combat section who will STOMP 210pound men because they are so SKILLED/PRO LIKE ALI have nothing but blanks.

because it’s a bunch of fucking pencil necks coming to a strength-training website to talk shit to strong/conditioned people, because a few hours of skill training make them feel tough. it’s pathetic.

It’s mind-blowing but this is the ONLY section of this forum where you will hear that physical conditioning/strength training is “only so important”.

You have all given great advice and I am thankful for. Irish seems like someone who really knows his stuff and so do the rest of you. No need to take offense over all this. Your input is definitely not conventional I’ve never hurt of hitting tires with sledge hammers for boxing but I cant say it doesnt work cause I’ve never tried it. Its good to hear all opinions and ideas .

You should try it out, buy a 8-12 pound hammer, do a few workouts with that, be safe, and I bet you’ll love it. Most people probably would love it. Besides being a killer workout in every way, it’s very specific to boxing, and also very fun.

“I ran my first two miles today in like 19 minutes I wasn’t pushing it really but it wasn’t too easy. What sucks is my shins were hurting and I feel like its shins splints which fucking sucks. I refuse to not train so they better heal because tomorrow I am running another two miles and cutting time off”

You need to develop a running program because man, that is not an athletic running speed. That is probably shin splints, which will slow you down for awhile but take hope man, they eventually go away. When I first started running I had to deal with those for months, but the legs will ADAPT. I know FIT (super fit) people who gave up on running due to shin splints, like they were the worst thing in the world, fight through them.

Take a look at leg development because imbalances in hip, quad, hamstring and calf muscle can help create or aggrivate those shin splints. You want hamstrings developed in relation to quads, quads/hip development. A strength training program developed to improve running.

Anyway run a lot, get an ironman triathlon watch, time a certain amount 3-6 miles, and try to improve daily. You will eventually get great speed and endurance. Just remember to run hard and fast. Do sprint intervals some days, find a 20pound vest for running, run with weight, do sprints with weight, just try to do a lot of running, uphill sprints, etc.

running is something that requires just as much dedication as a strength training or body-building program, it’s something you progressively train with a ROUTINE, like clock-work. Approach running like you approached body-building and you will be a success.

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
OP, feel free to listen to what these people say about me, but take into consideration that Irish is a man with anear crippled shoulder from a poorly thought out training regime, he ruined his shoulder to the point that he has admitted on this site that he doesn’t plan to participate in future competition because of it, that he cant throw a real punch without it coming out of place. A guy who for my knowledge has never posted a picture of himself, probably due to physical deformity.

The guy is half a cripple and you should take that into consideration before taking anything he says too seriously. Listen to Irish if you want a fucked up bum shoulder that ruins your chances of ever fighting professionally but if you want to be pro at mouthing off like an internet tough-guy warrior, take notes on the shit he constantly says.

Why is it that 90% of people on this site have profile pictures of themselves, but the tough guy warriors in the combat section who will STOMP 210pound men because they are so SKILLED/PRO LIKE ALI have nothing but blanks.

because it’s a bunch of fucking pencil necks coming to a strength-training website to talk shit to strong/conditioned people, because a few hours of skill training make them feel tough. it’s pathetic.

It’s mind-blowing but this is the ONLY section of this forum where you will hear that physical conditioning/strength training is “only so important”.[/quote]

LOL I am officially a cripple huh?

Ridiculous.

Just as an FYI to the original poster - my shoulder was destroyed from high school football and totally blew out sparring once. It’s separated MANY times since then but it’s more of a result of just poor genetics in that joint.

It has very little to do with the training regime I was on or not on. Generally when shit like that happens to you at 17-19 like it did with me, it doesn’t matter what you were doing… it was gonna happen anyway.

Ironcunt, post that video of you punching again so the OP can see what NOT to do.

Actually nevermind, I’ll find it myself.

What a dong.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]IronClaws wrote:

Look at what your coach tells you with some suspicion, if your coach is telling you to jog 10 miles a day, opposed to run a fast 3-6 with some sprint intervals, you do have to question some of that stuff, your coach isn’t going to be in the ring taking shots for you or handing them out.

That’s not to say to ignore a coach, but c’mon, everyone needs to think for themselves at some point. [/quote]

IF HIS COACH IS WILLIAM FUCKING JOPPY, HE SHOULD NOT IGNORE HIS COACH.

[/quote]

lolz
/end thread

davo i completely agree with proper exercise selection 4 days a week in the gym while training is easily attainable. and similar to you when i burnt out was when my less skilled coaches would have these ridiculous body weight and medicine ball circuits that would just ware me down further.

i rectified this by refusing to do any none skill related work excluding running and cardiovascular drills

and a mentor of mine tought me a divine hatred of punching with dumbbells aswell the only way im willing to entertain this at all is if im using a 16 ounce short metal bar in my fist anything more seems risky and destructive on the joints with no real benefit also seems to be a favorite of high school kids standing in front of the mirror at the gym

irish i still dont understand your seething hatred for weights or the idea that you can only do one at a time.

OP, I’d agree with Irish and the rest of the guys telling you to stick to skill training, with one or two days a week for core lifts, if you think you must.

Weights are the new big thing in combat sports, and everyone is keen to jump on that band wagon. I do believe that once you get extremely skilled, a weight program a few times a week will make a small difference. But there’s a hell of a lot to learn to reach that point, and honestly, until you’re really good, your time is best spent improving your skill. However big and strong you are, it counts for shit if someone half your size has the skills to pop you in the face and not get hit back. IronClaws gives it the chat about people on a strength site shitting on people bigger than them, but we are talking boxing here, specifically boxing, rather than bar brawling or streetfighting or MMA. For Boxing, skill is king, with stamina coming a close second. Learn to hit and not get hit back, learn about angles, learn to love having your opponent throw punches at you, because that is when they are most open for you to slip, get them off-balance, and land shots of your own. Muscles wont help you with any of that. Sparring, shadowboxing, partner drills and pads will. It’s a cliche, and it doesnt sound like it’ll sit comfortably with Ironclaws, but you learn to fight by fighting, not by lifting weights.

[quote]westdale warrior wrote:
irish i still dont understand your seething hatred for weights or the idea that you can only do one at a time.[/quote]

I am not attempting to, or qualified to, speak for FightinIrish but I think he is more of the opinion that many of the good things offered by serious weight training are of limited utility for non heavy-weight boxers.

Getting big and strong is a plus. If I have a choice between being bigger and stronger, or smaller and weaker than someone who wants to hurt me I am picking stronger. The issue is many boxers are trying to be lean so they come in tall for their weightclass. If you are trying for wiry than the ability to build slabs of muscle is not that big a sell.

Being stronger is great, but the rules (and especially the enforcement of the rules) in boxing has been moving towards negating the strength that weight training builds.A punch should be happening significantly faster than even “explosive” movements. A punch would be considered to be “nonweighted” or “minimally weighted”(guaze/tape/glove) compared to even “light” weighted movements. The resistance in the motion is completely different as well.

The “explosive”/fast lifts such as power cleans you are still straining against a weight that is significant enough that you can feel the damn resistance as you move it. That doesn’t happen with a punch. I am comfortable with the literature/studies on this subject and there is considerable evidence that the carry over from weighted to non weighted movements gets pretty minimal, pretty quick into training. If you want me to go into why I feel this way I can.

What about throwing a weighted implement? Good question. Throwing a weighted object and throwing a punch are completely bass akwards from each other. The object offers the greatest resistance initially, when you just have to start it moving. At its highest speed you release it and let your body follow through and decelerate over a fairly high amplitude/space. The greatest “resistance” of your punch happens when you slam your fist into the other guys body. It is about creating momentum, and not pissing it away by yielding in the resulting collision. You want his tissue to yield and fail. Add the different mechanics of throwing versus punching and we have moved chuckin’ stuff into the give it a shot and reap whatever benefits you can but hardly a “must” catagory.

Loaded movements will have a ton more carryover into “fighting” if you are trying to move a higher external load. So grappling arts, or even striking arts where clinching is a big part of it can get more benefit. Boxing is no longer an art where working in the clinch is a huge part. I think the 60’s were about the end of being able to clinch, thumb, and hit while clinched/holding without the ref and the instant replay getting in your way. FightinIrish, Duffy, and LondonBoxer if he shows can weigh in on the timeline. Regardless, the days of you being able to overhook me and work your head into my face while chopping punches into my kidneys/ribs are all but gone. Clinches are stopped, broken up, and restarted at a distance forcing the in-fighter/clincher to work his way back inside. Without the clinching more and more fighters find it beneficial to be taller for their weight class instead of coming in as a shorter/more muscled fighter in the next highest weight class.

I am also going to put out there that FighinIrish has a full time career and has been known to take side work for extra money so working 60 hours a week and then training is a different scenario than taking 18 credit hours in undergrad or even having one 40 hour a week job.

Regards,

Robert A

well put and i was kinda being a shit disturber when i put that in at the end of my comment he and myself have debated its utility before. but i like the reasoning you gave with the current state of the sport. and as you and london boxer both said we are talking boxing and purely boxing were “skill is king”

still seems like a shame so much effort goes into removing strength from fighting (my whack at the bees nest)

[quote]westdale warrior wrote:
well put and i was kinda being a shit disturber when i put that in at the end of my comment he and myself have debated its utility before. but i like the reasoning you gave with the current state of the sport. and as you and london boxer both said we are talking boxing and purely boxing were “skill is king”

still seems like a shame so much effort goes into removing strength from fighting (my whack at the bees nest)[/quote]

Robert said it far more eloquently than I could, with far less swearing.

Simply put, it’s a waste of time. Some guys here want to spend four or five days in the weightroom, but if you ask them what exactly it is helping as far as boxing, they can’t answer you.

Is it helping in endurance? Hell no.

Making weight? Nope.

Skills or technique? None.

Explosiveness? Find me someone who can even measure that.

Hand speed? Sorry.

Power? Maybe a tiny bit. Maybe. But then the hardest punchers are often not very big - Rocky Marciano was 189 lbs., Dempsey was maybe 187, Tommy Hearns was a skinny ass welterweight… I have always, always said that punchers are born. Not made.

There’s such a diminishing return for lifting that hits so quick with boxing, and to spend four or five hours a week on it when you’re looking to step into the ring is, in my opinion, obscene. You’re better off doing things that are going to give you skill in the ring - like Londonboxer said, skillwork, technique work, and endurance.

You show me a guy who can squat 500 lbs., and I’ll show you a guy who is gonna get so fucking tired by the fourth round he won’t be able to breath.

And if you’re working a full-time job, like all but the very best boxers MUST, you really think you’re gonna have the time and the energy to do roadwork in the morning, skillwork after work, and then lift at night? All the while doing some manual labor (which is most likely) job during the day?

You’re crazy.

Again, hang out with boxers. See what they really do. The best ones are the ones who eat, sleep, and breath boxing. Weights is such a minor part of the equation it’s incredible.

And like Robert said - the rules do not benefit the strong. They benefit the boxer.

is that you in your avatar ironclaws?

Robert A, has, as usual, been far more charming and insightful than I was able to be. I think in future I’ll just wait for him to post and put x2 underneath.

He made a valuable point that I don’t believe anyone else had, when he said that gone are the days of clinch work being a skill in itself. Guys like Dempsey swore by wrestling as a major part of a boxing conditioning routine. And guys like Dempsey were beasts. But they fought with smaller gloves and different rule sets, which meant strength could be more usefully applied.

As much as anything, with modern gloves, it is very difficult to get enough purchase to effectively apply strength. Also, in a boxing match, trying to grapple and use your strength is tiring. If I am leaning on an opponent in close, I want him to try and push me off, because it wastes his energy and does nothing to mine.

Fighting smart, which is, in my opinion, the best way to win consistently, involves very little strength, and a whole lot of skill, stamina and tactics.