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Boxing Efficiancy


#1

So I am sure that there have been multiple threads such as this one but I could not find any with the exact information I wanted. So anyways I am taking a hiatus from my bb pursuits because I was just unrelenting in my lifting I pushed it even when my body begged me to slow down. End result was a fucked up rotator and a constantly aching lower back among other things.

I figured I have to stay active why not learn to box and try to get into "fight" shape. I joined a local boxing gym that just opened up and the place is awesome. It has a couple former pros one being two time wbo middle weight champ William Joppy and a few less known active pros.

But I am getting frustrated because going from lifting 5 times a week bb split to this were I dont really know how to train has left me confused. I don't know how much weightlifting to incorporate. My coach said to stop pumping iron completely and just focuse on pullups/chinups push ups and dips ect. I also don't know what type of conditioning workouts to implement. They have boxing cardio classes which are surprisingly great if you give it 100 %, several of which are instructed by joppy. But the music they play is too gay for me(wocka flocka) and the soccer mom to guy ratio is just too high. If anyone wouldn't mind showing what their boxing training looks like I would appreciate it a lot. I am trying to train with the intent of actually stepping in the ring eventually.


#2

There's lots of threads on this.

There's lots of argument on this too, with for 'traditional' guys on the one side arguing boxing/fighting is almost all skill, and basically skill-work + road work (running/jogging) is all you need.

Then there's guys on the other end of the spectrum (over more where I am) who think lifting/S&C is very important and the idea that jogging + skill work is "all you need" is an obsolete way of looking at things.

Many of us on both ends of the theoretical spectrum advocate a 5,3,1 program either as a four day or two day split, as progress in developing strength continues with a relatively low volume of lifting.

I do a four day 5,3,1 split and am not too tired/burned out to do 2-4 hours of skill-work/conditioning six days a week on top of it.


#3

OK man, let me tell you this - if you're gonna get in the ring - SERIOUSLY - fuck that weightlifting bullshit. You need to learn how to box first, and you're going to be using muscles you didn't know you had and wearing yourself out like you never thought you would.

Your technique is most important. Every waking moment, you should be processing what your trainer is teaching you, and shadowboxing, shadowboxing, shadowboxing. This is what's going to make you develop a flow, a style, and a rhythm, which, if you're white, probably doesn't come naturally to you.

Your technique is also where all of your power is going to come from. It's got nothing to do with weight room strength or squat numbers or any of that other shit - it's from your technique (as well as other things like range and timing, which you will learn about later from your trainer.)

But your technique, unfortunately, won't do shit for you if you're too tired to use it. This is where your roadwork is gonna come in. Run ever morning, without fail. Start slow, but get your miles in. Most trainers shoot for 20 or 25 minutes of running, some do it in different ways or have different methods. My coach says to run around the track, and at the curve, start sprinting, and at the straightaway, jog. But like I said, different guys do it differently. B

This is important though - don't let any cocksucker tell you that running won't do anything for your boxing. If you don't run, you WILL SUCK in the ring. This is guaranteed.

As far as pushups, pullups, and dips, you gotta understand what the trainer is looking for, which is extremely high levels of endurance. Even an ammy fight, going 3 two minute rounds, will sap every bit of strength from you and make you struggle to keep your hands up by the end. High rep pushups and dips are going to give you more endurance in those muscles that will tire out first, namely the deltoids.

I suggest doing a lot of bandwork for your rear delts also, because those will tire out fast but are often overlooked by boxers.

If you don't dig the cardio classes, don't worry about it. You put in 12 or 14 rounds every day, and run, and you'll be gettin plenty of cardio.

Lastly, SHADOWBOX. Do it when you wake up, before you go to sleep, at lunch, in the bathroom, EVERYWHERE, all the time. Do at least three to five rounds a day totally independent of your workout, going light and easy but concentrating on rhythm and stringing punches together. This will pay off.

As for lifting, it's last, absolutely last, on the list. If you really want to keep it up, I suggest a shortened version of 5/3/1 that has you lift once, maybe twice a week, and doesn't incorporate many assistance exercises. If you do too much volume and get up in the ring, YOU WILL FEEL IT.

I lift twice a week still, but that's only because I'm not competitive and I still love to lift and stay thick. If I was competing - and that idea has crossed my mind - I would drop it to one day and just do a couple big lifts.

Here is my log: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/blog_sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_log/log_o_the_irish

You are now a fighter. You must now think like a fighter, and you must now train like a figher. Listen to William Joppy - he's been in the ring with the best of this generation, and he beat Roberto Duran (even though Duran was like 90). Whatever he tells you to do, you do it.

I know this was long and rambling but if you got any questions I'll see if I can help you out.


#4

"This is important though - don't let any cocksucker tell you that running won't do anything for your boxing. If you don't run, you WILL SUCK in the ring. This is guaranteed." (LOL post is gone, it made too much sense)

This is about the only worthwhile bit of information you're going to find in any of this guys posts, re-read it again and again, because its about the one thing this guy has ever said that has made sense.

That being said, run every-day, I would say try to build up past a jog and to include sprint intervals at least twice a week in your running program, running is great, but for a boxer, you want to train your anaerobic capacity/recovery/endurance, which isn't going to happen unless you SPRINT at least some of the time.

You really want to build up your roadwork until you are doing it daily, consistently, and like clock-work. Until you can run and run and run some more. 3-6 miles daily is a good goal.

In all seriousness though if your coach is worried about you lifting weights there's a lot of strength training/explosive training you can do that will build or maintain lean muscle mass, while working rotational trunk strength, anaerobic capacity, etc.

Tire flips, sledge hammering, medicine ball tosses, weighted sprints, sled work, etc.


#5

I will hit the weights 3 times a week. the look of power by leistner. Day 2 is not a really hard weight lifting day it's just cleaning up what you missed on day1. (day1 and day3 are fairly hard)

I run 3-6 miles every morning.(two times a week sprint intervals) after that I stretch and go back to sleep. Every-day I try to get an hour or two of sledge hammer work with a vest. Shadow box every day, work the mantis mitts and weaving/dodging at least 4 times a week.

hit the heavy bag at least 4 times a week, depending on your ability to recover from smashing on the thing or what else you're doing.

A weight lifting routine can be important to weather blows, for endurance, for strength, to up your weight but really it's not going to add much to your punching ability that other things like PUNCHING or sledge hammering might. Skill is going to be what powers your punch to insane levels.

dempsey probably wasn't deadlifting, bench-pressing or squatting much, but he was a really conditioned guy who knew how to link his body and use it with explosive speed, the result was a devestating striker for any age.

No matter what you want powerful muscles in the legs, back and abs though. You can get them from punching, ab work, road work and etc. There's a place for weights and weight training but it's all about how you move your body. You want to be really really conditioned more or less, if a weight-lifting routine helps get you there, don't drop it just because your coach tells you.

Look at what your coach tells you with some suspicion, if your coach is telling you to jog 10 miles a day, opposed to run a fast 3-6 with some sprint intervals, you do have to question some of that stuff, your coach isn't going to be in the ring taking shots for you or handing them out.

That's not to say to ignore a coach, but c'mon, everyone needs to think for themselves at some point.


#6

Coach who has done his homework in the ring obviously knows less than the guy who has been to the classes for a few weeks. If this is your logic I can absolutely see why you should demolish every living creature on this planet, after all you have never listened to anyone with more experience and you have proven yourself battling endless rounds against some of the hardest logs on the planet with some of the bluntest mauls ever made. No words can ever describe how much I admire you in all of your greatness oh mighty IronClaws, P4P 1 woodmauler in the universe!


#7

Ironclaws has got to be the best troll we have had here in a long long time.


#8

I never said ignore your coach, I said think for yourself. Esp since what may work well for one man might not work well for another. Maybe as an individual your body responds better to 6 miles at speed than 10 miles jogging, maybe 10 miles jogging is a stupid idea since boxing is largely an anaerobic sport. just think for yourself. Or telling you not to have sex with a wife or etc. Not that these practices are common, anyway.

Obviously anything coming from someone making a living on training boxers should be deeply considered. Also, almost all of my training is based on what certain trainers have told certain boxers over the years, I don't pretend to master-mind my own training routines. My strength training routine is one designed by a strength training MASTER, my other training has all been the advice of coaches to boxers. The wood splitting was encourged by a lot in shavers camp for example.

again and again and again and again you morons make fun of splitting wood as a GREAT conditioning tool for boxers, well it is, and most of you would do POORLY in a boxing match against ANYONE who knew the fundamentals of boxing and split wood on a daily basis at 200+pounds of conditioned body-weight.

You guys all talk like you could knock out people like George Chuvalo, haha.


#9

Any bodybuilding doesn't have a whole lot of use when it comes to boxing though, haha. muscle-mass for the point of mass without any concern for speed, cardio, strength and anaerobic training, endurance and skill will just make you some huge lumbering target to get beaten down. watch some of the foot-ball players who turn into boxers (they even HAVE great athletic abilities) but they look like clumsy monsters throwing girly punches. Open PALM sometimes. slapping at their opponents.

Can't find the match, but whatever.

despite the size of the guy, his athletic conditioning, it wouldn't have been a happy day for this guy to have fought a real boxer in his weight class. It would have been a beat-down.


#10

Wow a lot more of a response then I anticipated. I don't know why maybe its because I am so new but I feel retarded when I shadowbox. It feels as if I am not doing it right. To be honest though I have a fear of smallness having worked so hard to put on all the muscle and strength I have. I am between 180-190 now at 5'9 but If I were to step into the ring competitively it would def be super welter weight or even just welterweight. So I am gonna definitely lose some size.

Also my rear delts are freaking on fire after only a few rounds of shadowboxing. I've never felt anything in my shoulders like this.

As far as conditioning goes I made it two rounds sparring before I felt like throwing up. So I got a long way to go. I plan on running two miles a day to start of which is what my coach suggested.


#11

you gotta get used to that shadow-boxing, you kind of do feel stupid at first, but you want those recruitment patterns down as much as possible, and when you start really hitting the heavy-bag, it's going to matter because there is a cool-down time when you want your knuckles to heal if you are really giving the heavy-bag a good heavy session.

The shoulders will improve with work, shadow-box a lot more, speed-bag, shadow-box with weighted gloves or weights, a sledge hammer workout routine gives you shoulder endurance.

try out a sledge hammer workout and then do a heavy bag routine or shadow boxing session, this will increase shoulder endurance FAST. But you need to just practice punching, big muscles won't necessarily help.

For example, when you use a 12 pound sledge hammer you will gain some muscle and tendon size and very quick all of sudden that STOPS and you start gaining endurance strength, (if you change the workout, get a bigger hammer, you can get more hypertrophy) but eventually it will just give you more endurance to hammer.

Punch a lot, punch a lot when you are already exhausted and y ou will eventually build up that endurance. boxing for more than 10 minutes, like sledge-hammering for more than 10 minutes isn't just about "maximal strength" but conditioning of your entire body. But with all that size and strength you have as good of starting point as any! good luck!


#12

joutmez,

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.

I am hoping that your "fucked rotator cuff", "aching lower back", and "other things" are all very minor/sub-clinical. It is fine if you are more "burnt out" from bodybuilding than "busted up". If not, I think you are inviting problems.

If you have honest to goodness rotator cuff issues (impingement, tears, whatever) and "low back issues (disc injury, vertebral endplate injury, chronic facet issues, etc.) then those issues should be evaluated and addressed first. I do not think that starting an activity where you will perform thousands of fast, jarring, shoulder motions will be easier on your shoulder than bodybuilding. I am also fairly certain that if you have serious low back issues all the twisting, pivoting, and stress of boxing is going to be anything but easy.

Please take this shit seriously. You will do yourself no favors by ignoring injuries. .

PROVIDED THE ABOVE IS A NON-ISSUE

FightinIrish did a great job of framing the problem and setting priorities.

I would add that you should make "pre-hab"/injury prevention a big part of your non-boxing and non-roadwork training. There are already some great threads on it.

Here is one that FightinIrish started:
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_boxing_fighting_mma_combat/531_7?id=4242435&pageNo=0

Here is KMC's thread on mobility. This should be required reading. It is that good.
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_senior/mobility_for_old_farts?id=3112351&pageNo=0

Read these two links. Remember, when fighting we want the injuries to happen to the other guy. Coming in hurt already is doing his job for him. Fuck that.

Regards,

Robert A


#13

I know people say don't feed the trolls, but fuck it, I'm bored. Its funny how many people actually think they are so very special. I know thats what your mother probably told you, but the fact is that you probably aren't that special after all. What your are doing is you are making a rule out of an exception.

I know there are many good alternatives to doing the good old road work, but who the fuck are you to judge which conditioning method works out best for you in the ring when you don't even train in a gym with other people? Being able to split your heavy bag by beating it for 12 hard rounds is only going to take you so far, but the fact is that the heavy bag won't hit you back, it won't push you around and it will just be there and take all the beating.

Being able to beat the shit out of heavy bag won't prove your greatness as a fighter. Do you really think that very NFL player you refered to wouldn't crack open your heavy bag faster than you did? Well, you just posted the video that shows how it worked out for him.

I think people should be highly encouraged to think with their own brains, especially these days when internet and and rest of the media is so full of shit that you will have hard time picking up the small bits that actually contain some usefull info. But when it comes to training, how the fuck does it prove you smart if you take some woodchoppers advice over a man who has fought and bled in the ring and experienced a lot about training through trial and error, possibly for many decades.

I just don't see it, and if you stepped out of your self centered zone of narcissism and took your head out of your ass I think you would see it too: you just don't make any sense at all. When the guy has trained and competed professionally for over 10 years and coached for almost as long, I just don't see how any internet professor can match the level of proficiency that those coaches have.

True, most of the people who make it to the top are very gifted physically, and they might have some unorthodox methods that have worked for them but might not work for you, but road work probably isn't one of them. You have no bussiness what so ever questioning what those people have to teach until you have put those things in to practise and stepped out there in the ring at least a couple of times. If you still are feeling like you are doing everything your coach has told you and your lack of athleticism is why you are coming up short you can make the argument that he just doesn't have what you need and his coaching isn't working out for you. Until you do that, you have no bussiness to think you are that much more special than everyone else.

Please read that through a couple of times. You will probably find a bunch of spelling mistakes, but somewhere in there is also a message that is repeated a whole bunch of times. Just incase you missed it, here it is again: You are not that special, and until you compete you can't give people advice about how to train like a competitive fighter like you had some experience and knowledge, because simply put, you just don't know a shit. I am by no means a pro, but when ever I get to class, I sure as fuck will pay attention to what my MT coach has to say. Man has fought over 150 times in Thailand ever since he was 7, has won one of the most appriciated belts in all of Thailand and sure as fuck knows more about MT than I ever will simply because if all the experience he has. Not all the weightlifting, woodsplitting and spritting will ever get me near to where he is with all his padwork and road work.

And now for all of you sane people reading this thread (IronClaws, you may stop reading now):
Joutmez, do you shadowbox in front of a mirror? Should help with feeling retarded and give you a good idea of with how good of a technique you are throwing you punches with. Nevermind Ironcunt, but hitting heavy bag is also a good idea to get your punches feeling right, really getting that drive from your legs and ass. Just my 2 cents.


#14

Wow I am surprised by the serious replies I am getting thanks for the concern. I had an mri of my shoulder done and it showed what my ortho said was a significant amount of tedonitis and bursitis for a 22 yo. He did not mention any impingement and prescribed PT which of course bailed on when the pain went away. I do have shit external rotation in my shoulders though which I posted about and many have speculated that it is due to my tight thoracic spine and I do a fair amount of foam rolling and other stretches to try to alleviate that problem alas it hardly seems to be making a difference. I had an x ray of my back and everything appeared fine I had good curvature so for sure its no herniated disc. It suggested I get an mri because he said the pain could be due to tiny fractures in the bone that comes out of the vertabrae I think they are called transverse process idk though. To be honest it seems my shoulder feels better with all the shadow boxing and work that my delts is getting from it. Its like its strengthening it in ways it was never worked before. I do have lower back stiffness a little sometimes but that goes away after warming up. I think I just went to heavy to quickly and pushed myself a little to hard bbing and I feel confidant had I continued this way 6 months to a year from now I would have had a serious injury. I mean some days I was borderline crippled from the pain I was in. Thanks for the links and the words of advice.


#15

I'll mention a few things that you can look into
they are already in the mobility thread-

but you can google the links on youtube

Eric Cressey no money drill

smitty diesel crew shoulder warmup

or just google yltp shoulders

throwers ten- some small stretches and things you can do to help shoulder health and mobility

face pulls, band work and scap pushups too.


#16

I'll mention a few things that you can look into
they are already in the mobility thread-

but you can google the links on youtube

Eric Cressey no money drill

smitty diesel crew shoulder warmup

or just google yltp shoulders

throwers ten- some small stretches and things you can do to help shoulder health and mobility

face pulls, band work and scap pushups too.


#17

OP, when you read this dude's posts, keep in your mind that he has no idea how to box and has never fought or sparred or anything.

He put up videos of him trying to punch a while ago and they were pretty funny, as well as antithetical to any real boxer's idea of what "technique" is.

Basically, this Miss Nancy is our resident troll who just talks out his ass, so please, please, PLEASE don't take anything he says seriously and then go and apply it to your own training. For your sake.


#18

IF HIS COACH IS WILLIAM FUCKING JOPPY, HE SHOULD NOT IGNORE HIS COACH.

How dare some fuckfaced canadian cockjuggling retard who's never laced the fucking gloves up in his damn life come onto THIS board and tell an aspiring fighter that he should "look on what your coach tells you with suspicion."

Seriously, you're a total fucking moron and for the most part I appreciate it, but don't you dare fuck with this guy's thinking if he's really wanting to step into the ring.

This is out of your league canuck. Go chop some wood and shut the fuck up.


#19

You should feel retarded when you shadowbox. That's how everyone feels when they first start doing it. And honestly, it's going to be a while until you look NOT retarded while doing it. But every second you spend doing it gets you closer and closer to what you want, which is absolutely perfectly technique.

I can't tell you how many dividends constant shadowboxing bears. Keep at it, just do it and do it and do it, and the more you do, the better you'll be and the less retarded you'll look. haha.

As for being scared of losing size - I totally understand that. But this is the matter of mindset I was talking on. Don't be afraid of losing size, be afraid of getting up in the ring and taking a fucking beating. I don't know if you've ever been beat up before, but it hurts and it sucks. And it'll suck even more if it happens on a stage in front of people.

Keep in mind that the weight classes for amateur fighters are not the same as pro. You won't have to drain down to 147, because there is no 147 in USA boxing - welterweight will be at 152 and middle will be at 165.

At 5'9, if you can get down to 141, you'll likely have something of a height advantage. At 152, you'll be closer to guys your own size, which could change the way you fight and will definitely change your fight plan.

Just things to keep in mind.

That'll happen. Like I said, they're terribly overlooked.

Foam rolling before and after bag workouts combined with bandwork helped me remedy this. Along with just grinding it out, of course.

Good place to start. Get it in, and watch how much your ringwork improves. Promise.


#20

oh fuck.... ironclaws didn't just dismiss Joppy did he? fuck me ..... some serious drugs where you are ironclaws.
Nothing much to add except to confirm what Irish said and to reiterate, FUCKING LISTEN TO YOUR COACH if you don't want to get busted up.

I'd much rather be a skinny little runt who can open up whoop ass cans than be a heavy guy who looks the part but can't do shit. Alas, I am doomed with mesomorph genetics where I sniff a weight rack and the kilos pack on.

Don't worry about losing muscle, the new found mobility, springiness and ability to smoke fools should they mess with you will give you a better confidence than strutting around with a pair of 18 inch arms.