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Box Squat to Free Squat Carryover?


#1

For the guys out there that have used a box, what sort of carryover have you seen to your normal squat? Max to max like...

The box I've been using is slighty below parrallel so it should be a decent enough indicator right? (this is the height http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=ig72D150_qU )

I did 190kg raw off the slightly below parrallel box today, just a belt. So I'm tryna get a sense of where my actual squat should be (assuming I was to spend a few weeks training it to become fully comfortable with it again).

Thanks guys!


#2

Before my last raw meet (about 10 days before) I did a 460 box squat on a box right below parallel. At the meet I did 470 and had another 10KG in me atleast. So with a good peak I can squat 30+Lbs what I can box squat.


#3

i am boxing to a box about 1in below parallel normally. i have about a 20lb difference b/w the 2…


#4

For me in single ply, my free squat is usually about 100lbs over, closer to 150 in pimp gear.


#5

I hit a fast, painless 771 free squat PR recently. I did a grinding, slow PR box squat of 672 a month or so ago. Both were in full gear (suit, briefs, wraps). So- in my case- the difference is 100+ lbs. I think that guys that use a real wide satnce might have a smaller differnce. I squat fairly close-stance for unlimited-gear-wearin’, monolift-usin’ APF lifter and rely on bouncing my gut against my quads to rebound out of the hole. A wide stance, upright squatter will usually have a free squat that looks more like a box squat.


#6

I don’t use anything other than a belt when I train or compete, so I don’t know about going from belted box squat to geared competition squat…but I squat to a 14" box, and my box squat it usually around 40lbs lower than my competition stance squat. I use the same stance for both movements, which is toes touching the inside of the power rack.


#7

The trick to getting a good carryover is to mimmick your free squat as close as possible. The major difference being that you can sit back more in a box squat. If your main goal is squat carryover, use the same bar placement and foot stance that you would during a free squat. Also, make sure when you come up your first movement is back so that you don’t rock off of the box.

I frequently use a narrow stance when I box squat, as I find that it gives me a great carryover to my deadlift. I also hold the pause for a split second longer than you would if you were just looking to help your squat.

EDIT: Is that you in the video? You are rocking on the box quite a bit, look how much you rock back when you first touch the box, and then how much you come forward when you come off of the box. I know when the weights get heavy it is very difficult to not rock at all, but this rocking movement will hurt your carryover. You are building momentum out of the hole that you wouldn’t have in a free squat.


#8

[quote]Pinto wrote:
I hit a fast, painless 771 free squat PR recently. I did a grinding, slow PR box squat of 672 a month or so ago. Both were in full gear (suit, briefs, wraps). So- in my case- the difference is 100+ lbs. I think that guys that use a real wide satnce might have a smaller differnce. I squat fairly close-stance for unlimited-gear-wearin’, monolift-usin’ APF lifter and rely on bouncing my gut against my quads to rebound out of the hole. A wide stance, upright squatter will usually have a free squat that looks more like a box squat.[/quote]

I so misread that. I thought you said you only did 100lb more with gear on than your raw box max!! I damn near closed my laptop and went off to cry cos it would somehow have meant my geared squat was 10kg DOWN!! (just to clarify, I’ve done 245kg in single ply gear, and 190kg off a box @ comp height raw)

Are you saying that medium wide stance guys who squat upright will normally squat the same “free” as with a box? Since this was my first time ever doing box squats I’ve no idea what the correlation for the two is for me. I can normally do 70+kg more in gear for a single than I can raw for a set of 5, but the gap is widening with extra upper back and core work, if that’s ANY help, tho I sense it’s not!!

The goal for my next training had been 260kg in July, but if things contiune to go as well as they’re going now, 272.5kg for 600lbs might be a better idea!


#9

[quote]tedro wrote:
The trick to getting a good carryover is to mimmick your free squat as close as possible. The major difference being that you can sit back more in a box squat. If your main goal is squat carryover, use the same bar placement and foot stance that you would during a free squat. Also, make sure when you come up your first movement is back so that you don’t rock off of the box.

I frequently use a narrow stance when I box squat, as I find that it gives me a great carryover to my deadlift. I also hold the pause for a split second longer than you would if you were just looking to help your squat.

EDIT: Is that you in the video? You are rocking on the box quite a bit, look how much you rock back when you first touch the box, and then how much you come forward when you come off of the box. I know when the weights get heavy it is very difficult to not rock at all, but this rocking movement will hurt your carryover. You are building momentum out of the hole that you wouldn’t have in a free squat.[/quote]

Aye, that’s me in the vid, it was only my 3rd week doing the squats tho so I was still working on getting them right. I have vids from yesterday that I’ll try and get up later on.

My stance is a little bit inside my sumo stance, but a little bit outside my squat stance. I figured it was about the best compromise I could find!!


#10

Tedro, rip me apart http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=WlchVFhbaxM


#11

[quote]Hanley wrote:

Are you saying that medium wide stance guys who squat upright will normally squat the same “free” as with a box? Since this was my first time ever doing box squats I’ve no idea what the correlation for the two is for me. I can normally do 70+kg more in gear for a single than I can raw for a set of 5, but the gap is widening with extra upper back and core work, if that’s ANY help, tho I sense it’s not!!

The goal for my next training had been 260kg in July, but if things contiune to go as well as they’re going now, 272.5kg for 600lbs might be a better idea![/quote]

I would surprised if many experienced lifters squat the same free vs. box. It’s just that when I used to use a wide stance (feet almost out to the mono base), my box squat max was much closer to my free squat max. I have seen this in other folks as well.


#12

Hanley, on the box squats, you are still getting some rock off the box. The last one was the best as far as not rocking, but you plopped down on the box a little too much.

You’re doing a good job of reaching back for the box, but be sure to settle on it gently, and not drop down hard on the last couple of inches. The trick is to relax the hip flexors on the box without relaxing everything else.

For the first few months, I didn’t get that, and I’d relax just about everything, which means you have to sit upright or you’ll get folded over on the box. When you reach the box, relax the hip flexors, but don’t change your body position. If you stay in that position, you will not have a chance to rock forward.

Just drive keep your elbows down, and your chest up and drive off the box for all your worth. It’s very easy to get into the habit of trying to break a PR by adding a little more rock each time, but resist the temptation.


#13

[quote]Hanley wrote:
Tedro, rip me apart http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=WlchVFhbaxM [/quote]

First, you are not pausing at all. One of the major benefits of the box squat is that it kills your momentum and diminishes the stretch reflex, teaching you to explode out of the hole. You don’t need to pause for long, but just a split second goes a long ways.

Second, it looks like you are initiating the movement by bending your knees. Your hips should be the first thing to move on the descent. This will help you sit back further, and force you to use more of your glutes and hamstrings. You will also be less likely to rock backwards upon hitting the box. At first I thought this may just be due to fatigue, but then I watched some of your free squat videos and noticed that you tend to bend your hips and knees at the same time.

Third, you are still rocking quite a bit. On your way back up, your first movement is forward. The goal of a squat is to move the weight up, and to do this you need to force the bar back. You don’t rock forward in your free squat, so why would you rock forward off of the box? You are putting yourself into a different groove by doing this, and this could lead to falling forward in your free squat. It also diminishes the carryover since the movement is slightly different.

Part of the reason you rock forward is simply because you are lifting at or near your max weights. It is very unlikely that you will be able to completely get rid of the forward rocking motion. Make sure, however, when the weights are lighter that you don’t rock at all. As the weights get heavier, make sure to push back against the bar as you initiate the concentric portion of the lift. Again, you probably won’t be able to eliminate the forward rocking, but you should be able to reduce it quite a bit.

To sum up: Sit back, pause, and force that bar back. Then read Dave Tate’s article:


#14

[quote]tedro wrote:
Hanley wrote:
Tedro, rip me apart http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=WlchVFhbaxM

First, you are not pausing at all. One of the major benefits of the box squat is that it kills your momentum and diminishes the stretch reflex, teaching you to explode out of the hole. You don’t need to pause for long, but just a split second goes a long ways.

Second, it looks like you are initiating the movement by bending your knees. Your hips should be the first thing to move on the descent. This will help you sit back further, and force you to use more of your glutes and hamstrings. You will also be less likely to rock backwards upon hitting the box. At first I thought this may just be due to fatigue, but then I watched some of your free squat videos and noticed that you tend to bend your hips and knees at the same time.

Third, you are still rocking quite a bit. On your way back up, your first movement is forward. The goal of a squat is to move the weight up, and to do this you need to force the bar back. You don’t rock forward in your free squat, so why would you rock forward off of the box? You are putting yourself into a different groove by doing this, and this could lead to falling forward in your free squat. It also diminishes the carryover since the movement is slightly different.

Part of the reason you rock forward is simply because you are lifting at or near your max weights. It is very unlikely that you will be able to completely get rid of the forward rocking motion. Make sure, however, when the weights are lighter that you don’t rock at all. As the weights get heavier, make sure to push back against the bar as you initiate the concentric portion of the lift. Again, you probably won’t be able to eliminate the forward rocking, but you should be able to reduce it quite a bit.

To sum up: Sit back, pause, and force that bar back. Then read Dave Tate’s article:


[/quote]

Wow. I didn’t mean literally tear me apart :stuck_out_tongue:

  1. I thought I was pausing for long enough… Maybe not! I was looking at this vid of Chuck V (and alos his XXX vid) and he doesn’t seem to pause for that long either? http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=VsuVbQNkfxU

  2. I don’t know how much value there is to sitting wayyyyy back as a raw/single ply lifter. There just isn’t as much support there to sit back into as the multi ply guys have. Also, it’s been my exp. that with a relatively close/medium stance, sitting back too much creates either too much foward lean, or a bar that’s gonna pull you backwards arse over tit because your COG is fucked up!! Hence the hip/knee break at the same time. I was trying to keep the box squat form at least similar to how I’d do it in gear or raw like…

  3. On moving the bar back, if you look at where it is relative to my feet when I’m on the box, it’s exactly over or a little bit behind them, surely trying to move the bar back would result in me falling backwards?? Maybe it’s a result of me ending up in a bad position on the box, perhaps with more of a forward lean when I touch down this problem would be alleviated?

I’m not touching box squats other than on DE day for the next 5 or 6 weeks so hopefully it’ll give me a chance to play around and try to implement your suggetions. Nice one!


#15

[quote]Modi wrote:
Hanley, on the box squats, you are still getting some rock off the box. The last one was the best as far as not rocking, but you plopped down on the box a little too much.[/quote]

Yeah, I was getting tired towards the end, it was a bit sloppy to say the least!!

[quote]

Just drive keep your elbows down, and your chest up and drive off the box for all your worth. It’s very easy to get into the habit of trying to break a PR by adding a little more rock each time, but resist the temptation.[/quote]

Don’t I know it!! That’s why I tend to video alot of my training. It lets me know when I’m starting to cheat myself some PRs!!!

Thanks again bro.


#16

[quote]Hanley wrote:

  1. I thought I was pausing for long enough… Maybe not! I was looking at this vid of Chuck V (and alos his XXX vid) and he doesn’t seem to pause for that long either? http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=VsuVbQNkfxU
    [/quote]

Let me clarify. You are sitting on the box long enough, it is just that you never actually stop moving because of the rocking motion.

To each his own. In your case you may be right, but there is also the possibility that you will never tap into the full potential of your posterior chain if you don’t sit back more. I think if you learn to break with your hips first in your raw squat those numbers will likely go up, after you learn the movement of course.

Yes, yes, and yes. By sitting back more, you will be forced to bend more at the hips and have more forward lean. You will then use your hips more and your quads less to lift the weight. It will still probably feel like you are going to fall backwards, and may take some time to get used to, but leaning to far backwards is a much better problem to have than leaning to far forwards.

As for your bar placement relative to your feet, I disagree. It looks to me like the weight is venturing dangerously close to being right over your toes, but this is hard to tell with the angle.

[quote]
I’m not touching box squats other than on DE day for the next 5 or 6 weeks so hopefully it’ll give me a chance to play around and try to implement your suggetions. Nice one![/quote]

I think that’s a good idea. Some of these things won’t feel right for a while, but if you give them a chance they are likely to help you out quite a bit. My squat has undergone plenty of changes over the last few years, but over time they were all for the better. The biggest problem I had was a tendency to hold the bar high on my neck, and I was stubborn about it for a while, but eventually I bit the bullet and made the change.


#17

I think the rock is fine. Does it give you some momentum off the box? Yes. Are your rocking box squats making you stronger? If so, then maybe rocking off the box ain’t so bad.

Personally, I don’t like to rock off the box because I squat with a lot of lean and, with heavy weights (or worse, with heavy band tension), a rock off the box gets me out of my groove. When I come off the box with a rock with a heavy bar, I am in an ugly, rock-bottom good morning postition that I am unlikely to get out of. So I tend to touch and go. I prefer not to pause on the box. I feel like I lose tightness, come out of groove, and miss weights that way.


#18

My low box squat (11") was about 20-30 lbs less than my raw best regular squat.

From your video I do think you need to push your hips back more and keep your shins vertical. Personally I don’t think you rocked too much, as I recall (I could be wrong) Louie and Dave atually recommended rocking on the box to intentionally break the stretch reflex. Also after doing a search of Elite Fitness people box squatting on youtube I saw one of Big Mike rocking a whole bunch (much more than you) and Louie rocking a little bit. I used to rock some when I did them, so I don’t think you need to be motionless on the box, that is my opinion. Definitely don’t plop on the box as that can hurt your lower back.

Just FYI I found that high box (18+ inches) squats felt absolutely great and then I always hurt my lower back a day or two after maxing on them.


#19

[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
From your video I do think you need to push your hips back more and keep your shins vertical. Personally I don’t think you rocked too much, as I recall (I could be wrong) Louie and Dave atually recommended rocking on the box to intentionally break the stretch reflex. Also after doing a search of Elite Fitness people box squatting on youtube I saw one of Big Mike rocking a whole bunch (much more than you) and Louie rocking a little bit. I used to rock some when I did them, so I don’t think you need to be motionless on the box, that is my opinion. Definitely don’t plop on the box as that can hurt your lower back.
[/quote]

I don’t think anybody at Westside or Elitefts advocates rocking, yes it is nearly impossible to completely eliminate, but it should be minimized. By rocking you maintain and even build momentum. One of the biggest benefits of teh box squat is the complete separation between the concentric and eccentric phase, which teaches you to explode out of the hole.

I know there are some methods that teach you to rock off of the box. Bigger, faster, stronger, a common high school training program teaches a high box squat with a forward rocking motion. I am not a big fan of theirs.


#20

“Druoive”

I had the same problem with not sitting back far enough into the squat, too much forward lean. when i started box squatting with bigger numbers i found myself in a semi good-morning position, which is wrong and dangerous.

Sitting back does’nt feel “right” but i can move more weight doing it.