Box Squat Height for Athletes

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
21

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]arramzy wrote:
Whenever I read threads like this I always laugh. There are a million great exercises out there including all these variations of box squat heights and width and trap bar deadlits etc etc etc… But frankly, for anyone (especially someone who I am guessing is a bit of a beginner in the weight room) I think the answer should be simple - squat. While all the others are great moves to be incorporated into training, nothing is better than squating.

Did you ever watch power unlimited? hahaha best line ever
“leave your pssy at home, strap on your cck and bend those knees”

I should note that I am in no way trashing the use of box squats as primary motions like in westside training, but especially for this guy who is asking as an ‘athlete’, he is probably not worried about using hardcore gear, but just needs a solid foundation, so basic motions should be learned first.[/quote]

If just squatting made your squat better, why not just go compete every single weekend? Your weights will just go up forever until you have the world record.[/quote]

All I was saying is that for someone who clearly isn’t trying to be a powerlifter, but just wants to use the powerlifting exercises to improve himself in sports, I think basic motions, like the squat, are the best. That being said, you can’t max squat every week. I lift IPF and squat 3 times a week and have put on about 200 pounds on my squat in the past year (from just below 400 to about 600, at 83kg bodyweight). Frankly, if you follow most of the great lifters in NON HIGHLY GEARED powerlifting, they just plain squat… A lot… Back to this thread, as an ‘athlete’, I doubt he even uses knee wraps… Sooooo probably just squatting will work the best. But again, using other exercises have their place for sure… If you train for double ply monolift squatting, then I would agree that box squats, GM etc are indeed the MAJORITY of your training. But hey, there are guys that squat 4x bodyweight in single ply so what they do must work also.

22

[quote]arramzy wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]arramzy wrote:
Whenever I read threads like this I always laugh. There are a million great exercises out there including all these variations of box squat heights and width and trap bar deadlits etc etc etc… But frankly, for anyone (especially someone who I am guessing is a bit of a beginner in the weight room) I think the answer should be simple - squat. While all the others are great moves to be incorporated into training, nothing is better than squating.

Did you ever watch power unlimited? hahaha best line ever
“leave your pssy at home, strap on your cck and bend those knees”

I should note that I am in no way trashing the use of box squats as primary motions like in westside training, but especially for this guy who is asking as an ‘athlete’, he is probably not worried about using hardcore gear, but just needs a solid foundation, so basic motions should be learned first.[/quote]

If just squatting made your squat better, why not just go compete every single weekend? Your weights will just go up forever until you have the world record.[/quote]

All I was saying is that for someone who clearly isn’t trying to be a powerlifter, but just wants to use the powerlifting exercises to improve himself in sports, I think basic motions, like the squat, are the best. That being said, you can’t max squat every week. I lift IPF and squat 3 times a week and have put on about 200 pounds on my squat in the past year (from just below 400 to about 600, at 83kg bodyweight). Frankly, if you follow most of the great lifters in NON HIGHLY GEARED powerlifting, they just plain squat… A lot… Back to this thread, as an ‘athlete’, I doubt he even uses knee wraps… Sooooo probably just squatting will work the best. But again, using other exercises have their place for sure… If you train for double ply monolift squatting, then I would agree that box squats, GM etc are indeed the MAJORITY of your training. But hey, there are guys that squat 4x bodyweight in single ply so what they do must work also.[/quote]

Especially if someone isn’t trying to be a powerlifter and compete, they should be using primarily box squats. The stress on the knees is lower, the recovery time is faster, the learning curve is shorter, and all of the lagging posterior chain muscles that get hurt all the time in athletes get stronger. Bigger squats does not mean a better athlete. There is about zero correlation in being a good squatter and being a good athlete. For explosive sports, like the one the OP competes in, basically everything done in the gym will be GPP. His goal is to be a stronger more powerful athlete. That comes with practicing the movements required to execute the sporting skills as efficinetly as possible. Again, everything he does in the weight room will help develop motor potential but will do very little to help him display his technical ability when it comes time to compete.

Athletes need to be athletic. Not just good at squatting. It’s impossible to tell him what is best for him if you have never seen him in real life. Blanket statements about methods you don’t understand for powerlifting will not help answer the question the OP had about physical development for his sport.

23

[quote]niksamaras wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I think the issue here, is you are getting biased opinions from people who have done either or…as in exclusively free squats OR only box squats for an extended period of time. Of course performance will slowly suffer if your training is so one-dimensional. They are a tool designed to be used in conjunction with traditional squats.

Another exercise which will have nice carryover to your vertical is trap bar deadlifts with the high handles. I can’t think of a lift that mimics the jumping motion more. [/quote]

Well, I’ll put my vert against anyone’s on this site and I’ve used the trap bar maybe 5 times ever. I’d say hang cleans mimic jumping way better.[/quote]

Hang cleans mimic hang cleans. If you are trying to improve your jumping anything you do that is NOT jumping is just GPP.[/quote]

But aren’t hand cleans and power cleans and power snatches snatches generally, a kind of jump?
Just asking, I am trying to understand fully what you are saying.[/quote]

No they are not. They are olympic movements. For improving a jump, whether it be vertical, broad, triple, whatever, everything you do in the weightroom, with weights, is just going to be GPP. It is almost impossible to mimic the speed and technical skill required for a max jump without actually jumping. Will they help develop power? Maybe, I’ve personally never seen JUST olympic lifts do anything but make the olympic lifts better.

24

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]arramzy wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]arramzy wrote:
Whenever I read threads like this I always laugh. There are a million great exercises out there including all these variations of box squat heights and width and trap bar deadlits etc etc etc… But frankly, for anyone (especially someone who I am guessing is a bit of a beginner in the weight room) I think the answer should be simple - squat. While all the others are great moves to be incorporated into training, nothing is better than squating.

Did you ever watch power unlimited? hahaha best line ever
“leave your pssy at home, strap on your cck and bend those knees”

I should note that I am in no way trashing the use of box squats as primary motions like in westside training, but especially for this guy who is asking as an ‘athlete’, he is probably not worried about using hardcore gear, but just needs a solid foundation, so basic motions should be learned first.[/quote]

If just squatting made your squat better, why not just go compete every single weekend? Your weights will just go up forever until you have the world record.[/quote]

All I was saying is that for someone who clearly isn’t trying to be a powerlifter, but just wants to use the powerlifting exercises to improve himself in sports, I think basic motions, like the squat, are the best. That being said, you can’t max squat every week. I lift IPF and squat 3 times a week and have put on about 200 pounds on my squat in the past year (from just below 400 to about 600, at 83kg bodyweight). Frankly, if you follow most of the great lifters in NON HIGHLY GEARED powerlifting, they just plain squat… A lot… Back to this thread, as an ‘athlete’, I doubt he even uses knee wraps… Sooooo probably just squatting will work the best. But again, using other exercises have their place for sure… If you train for double ply monolift squatting, then I would agree that box squats, GM etc are indeed the MAJORITY of your training. But hey, there are guys that squat 4x bodyweight in single ply so what they do must work also.[/quote]

Especially if someone isn’t trying to be a powerlifter and compete, they should be using primarily box squats. The stress on the knees is lower, the recovery time is faster, the learning curve is shorter, and all of the lagging posterior chain muscles that get hurt all the time in athletes get stronger. Bigger squats does not mean a better athlete. There is about zero correlation in being a good squatter and being a good athlete. For explosive sports, like the one the OP competes in, basically everything done in the gym will be GPP. His goal is to be a stronger more powerful athlete. That comes with practicing the movements required to execute the sporting skills as efficinetly as possible. Again, everything he does in the weight room will help develop motor potential but will do very little to help him display his technical ability when it comes time to compete.

Athletes need to be athletic. Not just good at squatting. It’s impossible to tell him what is best for him if you have never seen him in real life. Blanket statements about methods you don’t understand for powerlifting will not help answer the question the OP had about physical development for his sport.[/quote]

I am really not trying to argue… But there is in fact a very strong relationship between how much you can squat and how high you can jump and how fast you can sprint…

Br J Sports Med2004;38:285-288
J of Applied Sport Science Research 1992, 6, 1, 36-41.

There are many more papers you can find that show this. So again, yes, squatting more will more than likely help someone who wants to throw something far.

25

PS I was in no way making blanket statements and in fact have read the westside book of methods so am familiar with that style of training and the mechanics of box squatting. Please don’t speak to me like I am an idiot when in fact you are being extremely close minded. I merely wanted to put my input into what I felt would be a potential approach somone might take to improving athletic performance in the weight room.

26

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]niksamaras wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I think the issue here, is you are getting biased opinions from people who have done either or…as in exclusively free squats OR only box squats for an extended period of time. Of course performance will slowly suffer if your training is so one-dimensional. They are a tool designed to be used in conjunction with traditional squats.

Another exercise which will have nice carryover to your vertical is trap bar deadlifts with the high handles. I can’t think of a lift that mimics the jumping motion more. [/quote]

Well, I’ll put my vert against anyone’s on this site and I’ve used the trap bar maybe 5 times ever. I’d say hang cleans mimic jumping way better.[/quote]

Hang cleans mimic hang cleans. If you are trying to improve your jumping anything you do that is NOT jumping is just GPP.[/quote]

But aren’t hand cleans and power cleans and power snatches snatches generally, a kind of jump?
Just asking, I am trying to understand fully what you are saying.[/quote]

No they are not. They are olympic movements. For improving a jump, whether it be vertical, broad, triple, whatever, everything you do in the weightroom, with weights, is just going to be GPP. It is almost impossible to mimic the speed and technical skill required for a max jump without actually jumping. Will they help develop power? Maybe, I’ve personally never seen JUST olympic lifts do anything but make the olympic lifts better.

[/quote]

Storm, you’re a smart guy and know more about training than I probably ever will, but I gotta disagree. I’ve done dedicated jumping maybe 10 times my entire life. All I’d do was play ball and lift. I added a legit 3" to my standing vert in like 6 weeks doing nothing but cleans, squats and hamstring curls twice a week and playing ball at most once a week. I’ve always been naturally “explosive”, so maybe what worked for me won’t work for everyone, but it DEFINITELY worked.

27

[quote]arramzy wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]arramzy wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]arramzy wrote:
Whenever I read threads like this I always laugh. There are a million great exercises out there including all these variations of box squat heights and width and trap bar deadlits etc etc etc… But frankly, for anyone (especially someone who I am guessing is a bit of a beginner in the weight room) I think the answer should be simple - squat. While all the others are great moves to be incorporated into training, nothing is better than squating.

Did you ever watch power unlimited? hahaha best line ever
“leave your pssy at home, strap on your cck and bend those knees”

I should note that I am in no way trashing the use of box squats as primary motions like in westside training, but especially for this guy who is asking as an ‘athlete’, he is probably not worried about using hardcore gear, but just needs a solid foundation, so basic motions should be learned first.[/quote]

If just squatting made your squat better, why not just go compete every single weekend? Your weights will just go up forever until you have the world record.[/quote]

All I was saying is that for someone who clearly isn’t trying to be a powerlifter, but just wants to use the powerlifting exercises to improve himself in sports, I think basic motions, like the squat, are the best. That being said, you can’t max squat every week. I lift IPF and squat 3 times a week and have put on about 200 pounds on my squat in the past year (from just below 400 to about 600, at 83kg bodyweight). Frankly, if you follow most of the great lifters in NON HIGHLY GEARED powerlifting, they just plain squat… A lot… Back to this thread, as an ‘athlete’, I doubt he even uses knee wraps… Sooooo probably just squatting will work the best. But again, using other exercises have their place for sure… If you train for double ply monolift squatting, then I would agree that box squats, GM etc are indeed the MAJORITY of your training. But hey, there are guys that squat 4x bodyweight in single ply so what they do must work also.[/quote]

Especially if someone isn’t trying to be a powerlifter and compete, they should be using primarily box squats. The stress on the knees is lower, the recovery time is faster, the learning curve is shorter, and all of the lagging posterior chain muscles that get hurt all the time in athletes get stronger. Bigger squats does not mean a better athlete. There is about zero correlation in being a good squatter and being a good athlete. For explosive sports, like the one the OP competes in, basically everything done in the gym will be GPP. His goal is to be a stronger more powerful athlete. That comes with practicing the movements required to execute the sporting skills as efficinetly as possible. Again, everything he does in the weight room will help develop motor potential but will do very little to help him display his technical ability when it comes time to compete.

Athletes need to be athletic. Not just good at squatting. It’s impossible to tell him what is best for him if you have never seen him in real life. Blanket statements about methods you don’t understand for powerlifting will not help answer the question the OP had about physical development for his sport.[/quote]

I am really not trying to argue… But there is in fact a very strong relationship between how much you can squat and how high you can jump and how fast you can sprint…

Br J Sports Med2004;38:285-288
J of Applied Sport Science Research 1992, 6, 1, 36-41.

There are many more papers you can find that show this. So again, yes, squatting more will more than likely help someone who wants to throw something far.[/quote]

You totally missed the point of what I was saying. Squatting will most definitely help develop motor potential (strength, size, power, etc.) and there are thousands of studies to show this. The problem is just being able to jump higher and sprint faster do not independently make someone a better athlete. The only way these skills will help athletic performance is if the athlete can display these skills with technical perfection on the field.

Think about D1 football players. I bet they can all sprint pretty fast and jump pretty high but, only 1% actually make it to professional football. In the 99% that get left behind, there are some bigger squats and higher jumps than the 1% that gets to move up.

All things being equal, higher motor potential will transfer to higher athletic performance. When the hell is everything else equal in the real world? Also, if just being strong, fast, and powerful made an athlete better at their sport, then why do they ever practice the game? Why wouldn’t they just lift, sprint, and jump?

I have read the Book of Methods too. It’s the most confusing jumbled mess and I’m pretty sure reading it straight through will give you a brain tumor. I read a cookbook once. That doesn’t mean I am a chef now.

28

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]niksamaras wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I think the issue here, is you are getting biased opinions from people who have done either or…as in exclusively free squats OR only box squats for an extended period of time. Of course performance will slowly suffer if your training is so one-dimensional. They are a tool designed to be used in conjunction with traditional squats.

Another exercise which will have nice carryover to your vertical is trap bar deadlifts with the high handles. I can’t think of a lift that mimics the jumping motion more. [/quote]

Well, I’ll put my vert against anyone’s on this site and I’ve used the trap bar maybe 5 times ever. I’d say hang cleans mimic jumping way better.[/quote]

Hang cleans mimic hang cleans. If you are trying to improve your jumping anything you do that is NOT jumping is just GPP.[/quote]

But aren’t hand cleans and power cleans and power snatches snatches generally, a kind of jump?
Just asking, I am trying to understand fully what you are saying.[/quote]

No they are not. They are olympic movements. For improving a jump, whether it be vertical, broad, triple, whatever, everything you do in the weightroom, with weights, is just going to be GPP. It is almost impossible to mimic the speed and technical skill required for a max jump without actually jumping. Will they help develop power? Maybe, I’ve personally never seen JUST olympic lifts do anything but make the olympic lifts better.

[/quote]

I agree everything in the gym is gpp for whatever sport your doing. But how can you say that cleans aren’t going to improve your vert and the only thing that will is actual jumps? I lean toward that line of thought myself ie. squat more to improve squat etc. But if this is true why do GM or any of the other various lifts for powerlifting? Get what im saying? Im not trying to argue I respect your opinion probably more than anyone elses on this site, it just made me go hmmm?

29

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]niksamaras wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I think the issue here, is you are getting biased opinions from people who have done either or…as in exclusively free squats OR only box squats for an extended period of time. Of course performance will slowly suffer if your training is so one-dimensional. They are a tool designed to be used in conjunction with traditional squats.

Another exercise which will have nice carryover to your vertical is trap bar deadlifts with the high handles. I can’t think of a lift that mimics the jumping motion more. [/quote]

Well, I’ll put my vert against anyone’s on this site and I’ve used the trap bar maybe 5 times ever. I’d say hang cleans mimic jumping way better.[/quote]

Hang cleans mimic hang cleans. If you are trying to improve your jumping anything you do that is NOT jumping is just GPP.[/quote]

But aren’t hand cleans and power cleans and power snatches snatches generally, a kind of jump?
Just asking, I am trying to understand fully what you are saying.[/quote]

No they are not. They are olympic movements. For improving a jump, whether it be vertical, broad, triple, whatever, everything you do in the weightroom, with weights, is just going to be GPP. It is almost impossible to mimic the speed and technical skill required for a max jump without actually jumping. Will they help develop power? Maybe, I’ve personally never seen JUST olympic lifts do anything but make the olympic lifts better.

[/quote]

Storm, you’re a smart guy and know more about training than I probably ever will, but I gotta disagree. I’ve done dedicated jumping maybe 10 times my entire life. All I’d do was play ball and lift. I added a legit 3" to my standing vert in like 6 weeks doing nothing but cleans, squats and hamstring curls twice a week and playing ball at most once a week. I’ve always been naturally “explosive”, so maybe what worked for me won’t work for everyone, but it DEFINITELY worked.
[/quote]

You increased your GPP. It’s the same as in powerlifting. More GPP equals the potential to display your motor potential in a competition if your technique is sound. Like you said you are naturally explosive. Making an explosive athlete stronger will make a more well-rounded athlete IF and only if you are a good athlete to begin with. I say athlete in the sense that you already had some technical skills developed. Also, you can’t say you weren’t jumping at all in your training if you were actually playing basketball and training during the same training period.

Anyway, your vert went up and that is an improvement. Was that improvement optimal or the most you could have gotten out of your training? Other than what you mentioned above, I have no idea how you train, how you eat, how much you sleep, or any other of the 10 million little factors that contribute to improved performance but, from the sounds of it, you only cracked the surface of your actual potential.

Also, going with the original topic of this thread, does that improved vert directly translate to more points per game, rebounds per game, and wins for your team? Really think about it. It makes training for sports a whole lot more complex than most people think.

30

[quote]Malaka79 wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]niksamaras wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I think the issue here, is you are getting biased opinions from people who have done either or…as in exclusively free squats OR only box squats for an extended period of time. Of course performance will slowly suffer if your training is so one-dimensional. They are a tool designed to be used in conjunction with traditional squats.

Another exercise which will have nice carryover to your vertical is trap bar deadlifts with the high handles. I can’t think of a lift that mimics the jumping motion more. [/quote]

Well, I’ll put my vert against anyone’s on this site and I’ve used the trap bar maybe 5 times ever. I’d say hang cleans mimic jumping way better.[/quote]

Hang cleans mimic hang cleans. If you are trying to improve your jumping anything you do that is NOT jumping is just GPP.[/quote]

But aren’t hand cleans and power cleans and power snatches snatches generally, a kind of jump?
Just asking, I am trying to understand fully what you are saying.[/quote]

No they are not. They are olympic movements. For improving a jump, whether it be vertical, broad, triple, whatever, everything you do in the weightroom, with weights, is just going to be GPP. It is almost impossible to mimic the speed and technical skill required for a max jump without actually jumping. Will they help develop power? Maybe, I’ve personally never seen JUST olympic lifts do anything but make the olympic lifts better.

[/quote]

I agree everything in the gym is gpp for whatever sport your doing. But how can you say that cleans aren’t going to improve your vert and the only thing that will is actual jumps? I lean toward that line of thought myself ie. squat more to improve squat etc. But if this is true why do GM or any of the other various lifts for powerlifting? Get what im saying? Im not trying to argue I respect your opinion probably more than anyone elses on this site, it just made me go hmmm?[/quote]

I do get what you are saying and this is where things get complicated for most people. Yes, squatting increses your squat to a point. Anytime you do squat and it does not mimic the setting of the competition (working on technical skill) then you are just increasing GPP/motor potential. An exmaple of this kind of training would be any of the, literally, hundreds of programs you can find online, i.e. 5x5, 3x3, 5/3/1, The Delorne System, etc, etc. These are all designed to increase motor potential for powerliting. The only time you actually work on technical skill for powerlifting is when sets are done in the same amount of time as it takes to perform a 1rm or when sets are done with the amount of force required to perform a 1rm because that is what the competition is: a 1 rep max. Not who can do 80% the best. See what I am saying now?

Same goes for cleans and all olympic movements. As soon as the amount of time it takes to perform the clean becomes longer than the time it takes to perform a max jump, then you are just working on motor potential. Which, when increased, CAN help whatever you are training for but, especially for sports, it will not be optimal.

I am not just pulling shit out of my ass, I have actually trained a shit load of athletes and seen first hand what actually translates to the field and what JUST translates to bigger lifts.

31

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]niksamaras wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I think the issue here, is you are getting biased opinions from people who have done either or…as in exclusively free squats OR only box squats for an extended period of time. Of course performance will slowly suffer if your training is so one-dimensional. They are a tool designed to be used in conjunction with traditional squats.

Another exercise which will have nice carryover to your vertical is trap bar deadlifts with the high handles. I can’t think of a lift that mimics the jumping motion more. [/quote]

Well, I’ll put my vert against anyone’s on this site and I’ve used the trap bar maybe 5 times ever. I’d say hang cleans mimic jumping way better.[/quote]

Hang cleans mimic hang cleans. If you are trying to improve your jumping anything you do that is NOT jumping is just GPP.[/quote]

But aren’t hand cleans and power cleans and power snatches snatches generally, a kind of jump?
Just asking, I am trying to understand fully what you are saying.[/quote]

No they are not. They are olympic movements. For improving a jump, whether it be vertical, broad, triple, whatever, everything you do in the weightroom, with weights, is just going to be GPP. It is almost impossible to mimic the speed and technical skill required for a max jump without actually jumping. Will they help develop power? Maybe, I’ve personally never seen JUST olympic lifts do anything but make the olympic lifts better.

[/quote]

Storm, you’re a smart guy and know more about training than I probably ever will, but I gotta disagree. I’ve done dedicated jumping maybe 10 times my entire life. All I’d do was play ball and lift. I added a legit 3" to my standing vert in like 6 weeks doing nothing but cleans, squats and hamstring curls twice a week and playing ball at most once a week. I’ve always been naturally “explosive”, so maybe what worked for me won’t work for everyone, but it DEFINITELY worked.
[/quote]

You increased your GPP. It’s the same as in powerlifting. More GPP equals the potential to display your motor potential in a competition if your technique is sound. Like you said you are naturally explosive. Making an explosive athlete stronger will make a more well-rounded athlete IF and only if you are a good athlete to begin with. I say athlete in the sense that you already had some technical skills developed. Also, you can’t say you weren’t jumping at all in your training if you were actually playing basketball and training during the same training period.

Anyway, your vert went up and that is an improvement. Was that improvement optimal or the most you could have gotten out of your training? Other than what you mentioned above, I have no idea how you train, how you eat, how much you sleep, or any other of the 10 million little factors that contribute to improved performance but, from the sounds of it, you only cracked the surface of your actual potential.

Also, going with the original topic of this thread, does that improved vert directly translate to more points per game, rebounds per game, and wins for your team? Really think about it. It makes training for sports a whole lot more complex than most people think.

[/quote]

I see what you’re saying, but it DID work. And, I didn’t say I didn’t jump, said I didn’t do any dedicated jumping. My jumping was through the course of playing or practicing dunks.

And, with all due respect we’re not discussing whether squatting and cleaning makes one a better ball player, or even a better athlete (by your definition). We’re discussing if they improve your vertical. And I believe they do, or at least can independent of other variables.

32

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]Malaka79 wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]niksamaras wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I think the issue here, is you are getting biased opinions from people who have done either or…as in exclusively free squats OR only box squats for an extended period of time. Of course performance will slowly suffer if your training is so one-dimensional. They are a tool designed to be used in conjunction with traditional squats.

Another exercise which will have nice carryover to your vertical is trap bar deadlifts with the high handles. I can’t think of a lift that mimics the jumping motion more. [/quote]

Well, I’ll put my vert against anyone’s on this site and I’ve used the trap bar maybe 5 times ever. I’d say hang cleans mimic jumping way better.[/quote]

Hang cleans mimic hang cleans. If you are trying to improve your jumping anything you do that is NOT jumping is just GPP.[/quote]

But aren’t hand cleans and power cleans and power snatches snatches generally, a kind of jump?
Just asking, I am trying to understand fully what you are saying.[/quote]

No they are not. They are olympic movements. For improving a jump, whether it be vertical, broad, triple, whatever, everything you do in the weightroom, with weights, is just going to be GPP. It is almost impossible to mimic the speed and technical skill required for a max jump without actually jumping. Will they help develop power? Maybe, I’ve personally never seen JUST olympic lifts do anything but make the olympic lifts better.

[/quote]

I agree everything in the gym is gpp for whatever sport your doing. But how can you say that cleans aren’t going to improve your vert and the only thing that will is actual jumps? I lean toward that line of thought myself ie. squat more to improve squat etc. But if this is true why do GM or any of the other various lifts for powerlifting? Get what im saying? Im not trying to argue I respect your opinion probably more than anyone elses on this site, it just made me go hmmm?[/quote]

I do get what you are saying and this is where things get complicated for most people. Yes, squatting increses your squat to a point. Anytime you do squat and it does not mimic the setting of the competition (working on technical skill) then you are just increasing GPP/motor potential. An exmaple of this kind of training would be any of the, literally, hundreds of programs you can find online, i.e. 5x5, 3x3, 5/3/1, The Delorne System, etc, etc. These are all designed to increase motor potential for powerliting. The only time you actually work on technical skill for powerlifting is when sets are done in the same amount of time as it takes to perform a 1rm or when sets are done with the amount of force required to perform a 1rm because that is what the competition is: a 1 rep max. Not who can do 80% the best. See what I am saying now?

Same goes for cleans and all olympic movements. As soon as the amount of time it takes to perform the clean becomes longer than the time it takes to perform a max jump, then you are just working on motor potential. Which, when increased, CAN help whatever you are training for but, especially for sports, it will not be optimal.

I am not just pulling shit out of my ass, I have actually trained a shit load of athletes and seen first hand what actually translates to the field and what JUST translates to bigger lifts.[/quote]

I actualy train athletes as well, im very simplistic in there training, and I appreciate the responce and the way you explained everything makes things very clear about the powerlifting. Thanks for letting me pick your brain!