T Nation

Book: The God Delusion

Great new book im reading called “The God Delusion”. I encourage you all to check it out.

[quote]T-Nick wrote:
Great new book im reading called “The God Delusion”. I encourage you all to check it out.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0593055489[/quote]

You, my friend, are just BEGGING for trouble.

It seems to me that you Lord God has merely created man to watch him suffer. This business of Satan, the Garden of Eden and free will is merely a facade. God merely wanted an excuse to harass, persecute, torment and oppress mankind.

If an all-powerful and all-knowing being creates everything, and allows his creations to react in a certain way, he actually intended them to act in that way and is solely responsible for the results.

What is the purpose of something like this? Atheists will read it to have their belief (or lack thereof) reinforced; theists (however few) will read this with closed minds and have their convictions strengthened every time they scoff at an argument.

I hate the whole idea of arguing about God. Any atheist who wastes his time arguing is too dogmatic about it; these are people who believe there is no god rather than disbelieve the existence of a god. Then there are the theists (notably Christians in this country) who veritably commit themselves to irrationality, they themselves admitting that their faith is blind. No one is ever swayed or made to question their opinions through the argument of others.

“Many a long dispute among divines may be thus abridged: It is so; It is not so. It is so; it is not so.”
– Benjamin Franklin: Poor Richard’s Almanack, 1743

“The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.”
– Benjamin Franklin: Poor Richard’s Almanack, 1758

Also check out The End of Faith and Letters to a Christian Nation, both by Sam Harris.

Excellent books full of good arguments.

[quote]ssn0 wrote:
It seems to me that you Lord God has merely created man to watch him suffer. This business of Satan, the Garden of Eden and free will is merely a facade. God merely wanted an excuse to harass, persecute, torment and oppress mankind.

If an all-powerful and all-knowing being creates everything, and allows his creations to react in a certain way, he actually intended them to act in that way and is solely responsible for the results.[/quote]

Not that i’m religious, but if there is an omniscient and omnipotent God, then isn’t bound by confines of our human logic. Whatever he does is dictates is right whether it makes sense to us or not.

[quote]T-Nick wrote:
Great new book im reading called “The God Delusion”. I encourage you all to check it out.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0593055489[/quote]

Does the book address the belief (delusion) that 95% of women like skinny boys? If so, then I’m so on that book!

Peter: “I want to thank God. I want to thank the Lord God because It is really not up to me, it is up to him and I want to thank the devil too because you know that is why God is there. He is minding the fence to make sure that guy never comes back. You know if it weren’t for the devil God would have probably gone insane blowing his brains out from boredom. Everybody likes to feel useful. Make-a da world go 'round. Back to you Tom.”

(Family Guy…for some reason this popped into my head the second I saw the thread)

Anyway, good luck with this one, I sense a heated, 53-page thread ensuing. Hope you’re ready for it.

Im sorry but how is believing in God any stranger then evolution? You believe there is no God but your willing to believe that BY CHANCE these micro organsims decided to get together to make us? now im not saying evolution is wrong for all i know it could be the answer to how not why. what i mean by this is that God could have willed it to be that way which is perfectly reasonable.

p.s. Im a christian with a open mind about how we were created.

[quote]huslinbriks wrote:
ssn0 wrote:
It seems to me that you Lord God has merely created man to watch him suffer. This business of Satan, the Garden of Eden and free will is merely a facade. God merely wanted an excuse to harass, persecute, torment and oppress mankind.

If an all-powerful and all-knowing being creates everything, and allows his creations to react in a certain way, he actually intended them to act in that way and is solely responsible for the results.

Not that i’m religious, but if there is an omniscient and omnipotent God, then isn’t bound by confines of our human logic. Whatever he does is dictates is right whether it makes sense to us or not.[/quote]

Your argument is absurd, you’re merely playing with words. “Right” must have a meaning outside of what God does, otherwise it is meaningless to call his actions “right.”

To say that God operates outside of human reasoning is not really an explanation at all. And what sense does it make to say his actions are “right”, if we can’t judge him by human reason?

[quote]John S. wrote:
Im sorry but how is believing in God any stranger then evolution? You believe there is no God but your willing to believe that BY CHANCE these micro organsims decided to get together to make us? now im not saying evolution is wrong for all i know it could be the answer to how not why. what i mean by this is that God could have willed it to be that way which is perfectly reasonable.

p.s. Im a christian with a open mind about how we were created.[/quote]

And for all you know nothing is real and we all live in the Matrix! Bum Bum Bum!

There is direct evidence that evolution happened, it’s not some theory that scientists invented arbitrarily. As of yet, I have not seen any plausible evidence that God exists.

Yes it’s true, we can’t prove God doesn’t exist. But there are innumberable theories we can’t disprove, like the one I mentioned above. Why believe in any particular one?

[quote]cap’nsalty wrote:
huslinbriks wrote:
ssn0 wrote:
It seems to me that you Lord God has merely created man to watch him suffer. This business of Satan, the Garden of Eden and free will is merely a facade. God merely wanted an excuse to harass, persecute, torment and oppress mankind.

If an all-powerful and all-knowing being creates everything, and allows his creations to react in a certain way, he actually intended them to act in that way and is solely responsible for the results.

Not that i’m religious, but if there is an omniscient and omnipotent God, then isn’t bound by confines of our human logic. Whatever he does is dictates is right whether it makes sense to us or not.

Your argument is absurd, you’re merely playing with words. “Right” must have a meaning outside of what God does, otherwise it is meaningless to call his actions “right.”

To say that God operates outside of human reasoning is not really an explanation at all. And what sense does it make to say his actions are “right”, if we can’t judge him by human reason? [/quote]

hmmm, I would say if there is a creator God who is omnipresent and omniscient, then he is the creator of both reason and logic. so attempting to judge his actions you are using the logic and the morality he instilled in you.

since the idea and scope of an all powerful God who always has been and always will be is beyond our finite minds, I believe many events that happen in our lives will be beyond our understanding.

also, judging God would mean that your morality is superior to that of your creator. how could that ever be possible?

Im not asking you to disprove God but theres many holes in evolution. Im not saying its wrong but choosing this and basicly reverting to a 5th grade mentality of If you dont agree with me your stupid is kind of pointless(yes i know you never said we were stupid this is a general thing).

You’re saying that you’ve never disagreed with something your mom or dad did or said? Because, regardless of religious beliefs, they created you.

As to the random chance you mentioned, evolution is not random by any stretch of the imagination. Yes, the mutation of genes may be random. But the selection of those genes for reproduction is decidedly NOT random. Natural selection is the non-random selection of randomly mutated traits.

There’s nothing random about a set of data which was created randomly, but I only include the prime numbers.

-Gendou

Yes they did create me im not saying i just poped up randomly. Evolution has so many holes in it tho its to early to judge. Now a good argument for God is that everything science can produce must result in a begining, Lets take the big bang for example.

it started when a white light imploded and created everything. fine sounds reasonable but where did that light come from?(now before you take this as me trying to change the subject its just a example). Now I know God is real through personal experiances in my life, hopefully you can experance it too.

Alright, everything must have a beginning. Let’s go with that.

How did God begin?

My point is there is no begining. Time is irrelevant, There can not be a biggining its impossable. Science can not solve this because its beyond are understanding, As God states there is no beggining.

Show Me God, By Fred Heeren takes the opposite role.

I used to have severe doubts reguarding an all powerful being and the like, however through science and deep thought(Spike induced ;)) I decided that believing in God was my better path.
There are people that choose to view their faith in an irrational manner, but some people began atheist and needed rationality to be shown a different view.
The pendulum swings both ways.

[quote]John S. wrote:
My point is there is no begining. Time is irrelevant, There can not be a biggining its impossable. Science can not solve this because its beyond are understanding, As God states there is no beggining.[/quote]

Time is irrelevant, but you’re missing the mark.

Time only exists within the universe. It’s just a dimension. You can’t say “before the universe” anymore than you can say “outside the universe”. Think of a balloon filled with water. Anything on the inside of the balloon is wet, but you wouldn’t call the balloon itself wet. Yeah, that’s the best I can come with at the moment; human language isn’t built to explain this!

There’s a great quote from South Park that comes to mind:

Let us not forget the great Richard Dawkins who finally freed the world of religion long ago. Dawkins knew that logic and reason were the way of the future. But it wasn’t until he met his beautiful wife that he learned using logic and reason isn’t enough. You have to be a dick to everyone who doesn’t think like you.