Book of Job - Why?

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

[quote]orion wrote:
Professor X wrote:
orion wrote:

And yet it is bound in so many ways, and all those ethical dilemmas take place in a moral area that we are actually able to conceive.

So we can only make moral decisions on a certain playingfield, what if this playing field is rigged?

How is “free will” bound?

I am playing with the idea that free will , when it comes to sinning and such, is only possible within certain limits, more or less our moral universe.

Our moral universe, the moral problems we had to deal with if we were say, intelligent ants, would be entirely different.

Related to that:

There are only so many basic moral dilemmas facing human beings and quite often our instincts contradict each other.

F.E. Most of us probably would want a serious relationship AND fuck every semi-legal college girl that is even slightly attractive.

I think that those urges co-exist for evolutionary reasons but if I believed a God had given them to me just to test my free will, I would feel that he is tilting the playing field to make it more likely people fuck up.

So lets say, assuming that there is a God, Jehova style, I think that the tiny letters on the back of the contract, the fine print, his code of commerce, does not exactly work in my favor, even if free will is technically not touched by that.

[/quote]

That doesn’t explain how free will is bound. It just shows you are mad because temptation exists. You are mad that there is a negative aspect that goes along with the positive in our reality. Again, how would we even know or enjoy pleasure if we had no concept of pain? In our reality, both of those things exist…good and bad.

It may rain today…which sucks because I rode my motorcycle. But why does it suck? So, a sunny day is better? So I’m happy when the sun shines? How would I know to even be happy for the sun shining for some reason if I never experienced the rain?

You wrote that you feel the playing field is tilted so that you are more likely to fuck up. Humans screw up daily. Perfection isn’t even needed to make it into heaven. Your true self…your heart, is the issue. It doesn’t matter if you screwed up big time and cheated on your wife. If you are honestly sorry for it and vow to never do it again…that is more desired. You will have to pay for the moral consequences here, but God forgives.

22

[quote]Professor X wrote:
… It doesn’t matter if you screwed up big time and cheated on your wife. …[/quote]

My wife would disagree.

23

[quote]Professor X wrote:
It may rain today…which sucks because I rode my motorcycle. But why does it suck? So, a sunny day is better? So I’m happy when the sun shines? How would I know to even be happy for the sun shining for some reason if I never experienced the rain?[/quote]

That is actually one of the most profound and thought-provoking things I’ve read in a long time. Seriously.

For example, it does explain why, in my experience, every single person I’ve found myself admiring has one thing I eventually found in common: they’ve all gone through their fair bit of suffering, learnt from it and became much better people from it.

Not all people who suffer become better, but I guess we do need to suffer in order to learn how to be better human beings. We need to not have something in order to appreciate it when we do, and understand how others feel when they don’t have it either. That’s just the way it is. It’s not fair, you may resent it, but life is not fair and resentment is possibly one of the most useless emotions there is.

24

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Professor X wrote:
… It doesn’t matter if you screwed up big time and cheated on your wife. …

My wife would disagree.[/quote]

She might be the reason you hit heaven early.

25

[quote]hspder wrote:
Professor X wrote:
It may rain today…which sucks because I rode my motorcycle. But why does it suck? So, a sunny day is better? So I’m happy when the sun shines? How would I know to even be happy for the sun shining for some reason if I never experienced the rain?

That is actually one of the most profound and thought-provoking things I’ve read in a long time. Seriously.

For example, it does explain why, in my experience, every single person I’ve found myself admiring has one thing I eventually found in common: they’ve all gone through their fair bit of suffering, learnt from it and became much better people from it.

Not all people who suffer become better, but I guess we do need to suffer in order to learn how to be better human beings. We need to not have something in order to appreciate it when we do, and understand how others feel when they don’t have it either. That’s just the way it is. It’s not fair, you may resent it, but life is not fair and resentment is possibly one of the most useless emotions there is.
[/quote]

This is the reason to fuck fat chicks, because you will appreaciate hot chicks all the more.

26

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

This is the reason to fuck fat chicks, because you will appreaciate hot chicks all the more.[/quote]

Glen Quagmire: Don’t look at me like that. Fat chicks need love too… but they got to pay.

27

[quote]hspder wrote:
Professor X wrote:
It may rain today…which sucks because I rode my motorcycle. But why does it suck? So, a sunny day is better? So I’m happy when the sun shines? How would I know to even be happy for the sun shining for some reason if I never experienced the rain?

That is actually one of the most profound and thought-provoking things I’ve read in a long time. Seriously.

For example, it does explain why, in my experience, every single person I’ve found myself admiring has one thing I eventually found in common: they’ve all gone through their fair bit of suffering, learnt from it and became much better people from it.

Not all people who suffer become better, but I guess we do need to suffer in order to learn how to be better human beings. We need to not have something in order to appreciate it when we do, and understand how others feel when they don’t have it either. That’s just the way it is. It’s not fair, you may resent it, but life is not fair and resentment is possibly one of the most useless emotions there is.
[/quote]

Isn’t that the truth. If there is one thing that is almost universally true about mankind, it’s that perpetual ease in life produces worthless individuals. Something about our nature seems to require that we experience pain and difficulty in order for us to grow as human beings–just look at the Paris Hiltons of the world. I guess that’s why the “problem of pain” never really struck me as a much of a problem…

28

[quote]Professor X wrote:

That doesn’t explain how free will is bound. It just shows you are mad because temptation exists. You are mad that there is a negative aspect that goes along with the positive in our reality. Again, how would we even know or enjoy pleasure if we had no concept of pain? In our reality, both of those things exist…good and bad.

It may rain today…which sucks because I rode my motorcycle. But why does it suck? So, a sunny day is better? So I’m happy when the sun shines? How would I know to even be happy for the sun shining for some reason if I never experienced the rain?

You wrote that you feel the playing field is tilted so that you are more likely to fuck up. Humans screw up daily. Perfection isn’t even needed to make it into heaven. Your true self…your heart, is the issue. It doesn’t matter if you screwed up big time and cheated on your wife. If you are honestly sorry for it and vow to never do it again…that is more desired. You will have to pay for the moral consequences here, but God forgives.[/quote]

I am not mad at anything, I thing those instincts are part of our genetic programming, i.e. being human.

I only get slightly irritated if someone tells me that being human means being evil; original sin, even wanting means sinning, etc…

I get the “there is no bad without good, no light without shadow part”.

But why would a God make me WANT to do things that according to Himself are bad?

I could also be instinctively repulsed by them, as I am by the smell of rotten meat or by the sight of diseases that might be contagious.

Why does he give me instincts that protect me from food poisoning but not from endangering my eternal soul?

Ultimately He is responsible for what “tempts” me and what not.

29

[quote]orion wrote:

I am not mad at anything, I thing those instincts are part of our genetic programming, i.e. being human.

I only get slightly irritated if someone tells me that being human means being evil; original sin, even wanting means sinning, etc…

I get the “there is no bad without good, no light without shadow part”.

But why would a God make me WANT to do things that according to Himself are bad?

I could also be instinctively repulsed by them, as I am by the smell of rotten meat or by the sight of diseases that might be contagious.

Why does he give me instincts that protect me from food poisoning but not from endangering my eternal soul?

Ultimately He is responsible for what “tempts” me and what not.
[/quote]

How much, in all honesty, are you wanting to do all of these things you consider bad? We talk about self control in terms of bodybuilding all day long…but somehow, when it comes to screwing some chick that isn’t your wife, all is lost?

30

[quote]orion wrote:
I am not mad at anything, I thing those instincts are part of our genetic programming, i.e. being human.

I only get slightly irritated if someone tells me that being human means being evil; original sin, even wanting means sinning, etc…

I get the “there is no bad without good, no light without shadow part”.

But why would a God make me WANT to do things that according to Himself are bad? [/quote]

I don’t think He makes us want to do anything. Everything that can be considered sin, stems, to some degree, from a natural and healthy impulse. Take sex for instance: I think everyone would agree that sex within the confines of mariage is ok; however, sex outside of marriage is sin in God’s eyes. Or food: It is natural to get hungry and eat, it becomes a problem when eating takes over one’s life. Some people have a problem controlling the impulse to eat; some, the impulse to have sex. We all have trouble controlling something and that’s the whole point about Christianinty (at least as I see it): We are all sinners and are all in need of help–all we have to do is ask for it. God, so far as he wishes and we are receptive, will then begin to make us WANT to do right. But he won’t make us change if we don’t want to change.

[quote]I could also be instinctively repulsed by them, as I am by the smell of rotten meat or by the sight of diseases that might be contagious.

Why does he give me instincts that protect me from food poisoning but not from endangering my eternal soul?[/quote]

I think an argument could be made that He did, but, in any case, the issue had to be left vague enough so that there could legitimate choice. If sinning were a diffificult as killing one’s self, choice wouldn’t be nearly as “free.”

31

[quote]Professor X wrote:
orion wrote:

I am not mad at anything, I thing those instincts are part of our genetic programming, i.e. being human.

I only get slightly irritated if someone tells me that being human means being evil; original sin, even wanting means sinning, etc…

I get the “there is no bad without good, no light without shadow part”.

But why would a God make me WANT to do things that according to Himself are bad?

I could also be instinctively repulsed by them, as I am by the smell of rotten meat or by the sight of diseases that might be contagious.

Why does he give me instincts that protect me from food poisoning but not from endangering my eternal soul?

Ultimately He is responsible for what “tempts” me and what not.

How much, in all honesty, are you wanting to do all of these things you consider bad? We talk about self control in terms of bodybuilding all day long…but somehow, when it comes to screwing some chick that isn’t your wife, all is lost?[/quote]

Frankly, yes…

I am not married, but I get the feeling that this might get in the way…

32

Somehow, people miss my question:

There are things that are obviously, physically bad for me, i.e. could kill me, like snakes and spiders and illnesses and rotten food and God has given me instincts to keep me away from them.

That was very nice of Him.

There are other things that are even worse for me because they might kill my immortal soul and yet he does not only not give me instincts who push me away, he gives me instinct that make me want them…

I am not sure if that was very nice of Him.

Or to put it another way, he might not have made temptation, BUT, by ceating me , he decided what would “tempt” me…

Or if I could be tempted at all…

If he hates sin so much, why not create me slightly differently, I would not even want to sin, though I still could (no free will problem there, ha!) and no floods or plagues or destroying whole cities…

THAT would have been intelligent design…

Software sucks…(only if you believe the sin part, if not, it is quite ok…)

33

I am like Job, being tested. Ninevah was actually northern Iraq in Job’s time. Allah is testing my loyalty to him and I will be faithful. Then I will be rewarded. I will get my country back, and after we win the civil suit against America, I will own California too. I have big plans for San Francisco. They think they know how to have a parade. HA! We will have the Mother of All Parades! Wait until we roll 3 divisions of Republican Guards across that red bridge, whatever its called, it will be Saddams Mutherfuggin Bridge in about 2 years. Insh Allah.

ALLAH AKBAR!

34

[quote]Minotaur wrote:
It just seems as though God put Job through all these problems simply to prove to Satan that Job’s love would hold fast. And that doesn’t seem like a loving thing to do.

Can anyone explain this?[/quote]

Are you not aware that the Christian deity is vengeful and murderous, almost without parallel?

Find a better religion.

35

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
Minotaur wrote:
It just seems as though God put Job through all these problems simply to prove to Satan that Job’s love would hold fast. And that doesn’t seem like a loving thing to do.

Can anyone explain this?

Are you not aware that the Christian deity is vengeful and murderous, almost without parallel?

Find a better religion.

[/quote]

A little angry there?

36

Say what? I’ll just answer your question without further speculation on my part: Nope, not angry whatsoever.

37

[quote]Minotaur wrote:
It seems to me that Job’s suffering was the result of, essentially, a bet between God and Satan. In the beginning of the Book, God and Satan have a conversation which I interpret as basically:
Satan: I bet Job will curse you if he sufffers enough.

God: I bet he won’t. Go 'head. Make him suffer, just don’t kill him. He’ll still love me.

Satan: Fine. You’re on.

It just seems as though God put Job through all these problems simply to prove to Satan that Job’s love would hold fast. And that doesn’t seem like a loving thing to do.[/quote]

Well first of all this was a no-win bet for Satan.

Remember that God is all-knowing! So he KNEW that Job would still love Him. So it’s not even a real bet because God can see the future (i.e. all-knowing means nothing can suprise Him).

Now here’s my question on this:
Since God is all knowing, He knows what you are going to do with your life. That means he knows whether you’re going to Heaven or Hell.

That means you technically don’t have free will from His perspective (from your perspective, you do, but not from His).

So why would God allow someone to be born when He knows that the person is going to Hell? Because by letting that person be born, isn’t God simply condemning that person to Hell?

38

[quote]remyc88 wrote:

So why would God allow someone to be born when He knows that the person is going to Hell? Because by letting that person be born, isn’t God simply condemning that person to Hell?[/quote]

It depends on what you mean when you say God knows the future. If God resides outside space-time, he doesnt see the future, there is no future in the way you and I use the term. Past, present, and future are all, simultaneously, experienced by God. In othere words, form his perspective, from the moment he created space-time (if that’s what you believe) you, and everyone else, already exist, haven’t yet been born, and have already died. He doesn’t make decisions for you, nor does he see what decisions you will make, he has simply already watched you make them…as you make them. It’s a complicated notion to grasp but how else would a being living outside space and time relate to events happening inside space and time?

Check out the book Hyperspace by Michio Kaku. It has nothing to do with Christianinty but it will give you some insight into how a theoretical higher dimensional being might relate to those of a lower dimension. Interesting stuff…

39

[quote]remyc88 wrote:
Now here’s my question on this:
Since God is all knowing, He knows what you are going to do with your life. That means he knows whether you’re going to Heaven or Hell.

That means you technically don’t have free will from His perspective (from your perspective, you do, but not from His).

So why would God allow someone to be born when He knows that the person is going to Hell? Because by letting that person be born, isn’t God simply condemning that person to Hell?[/quote]

We have all been allowed to choose. And we have all chosen sin and disobedience to God. (Unless you can say that you have perfectly kept God’s 10 commandments all your life). The Bible says that no one is good and that no one seeks after God. People were asking the same question you just did back in Paul’s day and he addressed this in the book of Romans.

Romans 9: 6-22

"But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

40

remyc88,

As I sit here praying on how to answer your question,it is hard to truly answer to your specifics.Hope this helps somewhat.

As followers of Christ,we have only one source of guidance,the bible.We also have secondary sources written by man with his views as long as these writings do not conflict with the bible.

Isaiah 55:8-9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,neither are your ways my ways saith the Lord.For as the heavens are higher than the earth,so are my ways higher than your ways,and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

Gods thoughts,plans,intensions,and ways are not only different from ours,they are infinitely higher.

Ezekiel 33:11 “…As I live saith the Lord God,I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked,but that the wicked turn from his ways and live.Turn ye,turn ye from your evil ways,for why will you die.”

God is gracious,who delights not in judgement of sin but in spritual restoration of those who accept his grace.God wants everyone to turn to him for salvation so that they will not die in their sins.

Jonah 3:8-10 “…let them turn every one from their evil ways,and from the violence that is their hands.Who can tell if God will turn away from his fierce anger,that we perish not.And God saw their works,that they turned from their evil ways and God repented of the evil that he had said that he would do unto them,and he did it not.”

Gods primary desire is to have mercy,not to execute his threatened punishment,The Lord is a God who is moved with compassion for sinners who sincerely repent.

I Timothy 2:3-4 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”

The bible reveals two aspects of the will of God for humankind with regard to salvation.Gods perfect will which says that he desires everyone to be saved.And his permissive will which acknowledges that he permits many to refuse to come to Christ and receive his salvation.

II Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack conserning his promise,as some men count slackness but is longsuffering to usward,not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”

This truth does not mean that all will be saved.For if a person rejects Gods grace and salvation,then they are lost.Some will perish but that is not his desire.He patiently provides time and opportunity through the preaching of the Gospel and even the truths being sent over these religious posts.

How can God be sovereign and man be free at the same time.In the scriptures certian truths emerge.God knows all things,the future as well as the past.God is not willing that any should perish.God has granted to man free moral agency,the right to make choices.Our choices determine our eternal destiny.The full meaning of these truths will not be fully understood until we meet with the perfect Teacher,Jesus christ himself.

Revelation 3:20-22 "Behold I stand at the door and knock,If any man hear my voice,and open the door,I will come into him,and sup with him,and he with me.To him that overcometh will grant to sit with me in my throne,even as I also overcame,and am set down with my Father in his throne.He that hath an ear,let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

MARANATHA