I’ll be back to discuss.
This is my personal experience, can’t speak for anyone else.
I’m a longtime lurker by the way. Just decided to go ahead and invest fully in the forums.
I started lifting specifically for bodybuilding about 2 years ago. I played college baseball before that.
The gym I was working at was owned by a former natural bber who had won a couple state shows back in the 90s. I told him I was interested in bodybuilding and he told me as a natty you have to lift hard and heavy when you first start out, and hit everything twice a week.
I started at about 5’11 180.
What I found was hard n’ heavy worked very well for me, low volume, higher frequency, but I had trouble buidling certain parts of my body, specifically my hammies and lats.
That’s when I turned to pre-exhausting, and higher reps like @brickhead talks about, working on mind muscle connection, that sort of thing.
I ended up working up to 215 lbs in this manner. Undulating my rep schemes and pre-exhausting/hitting 2x/wk muscles that wouldnt grow.
Fast forward to present day, I started prepping for a local NPC show 14 weeks ago. My coach is an IFBB Physique pro, local guy, he talks about doing reps of 15-20, along the lines of mind-muscle connection. I still left heavy ocassionally but I found that reps in the 8-15 range are a lot easier to complete when you’re depleted. I’ve been doing a ‘bro split’ during the prep. I don’t think I’ve loss much muscle throughout this prep as well. I will post pics after the show this weekend.
I say this to say – as has been reiterated – different things work for different people, but, both schemes seemed to work for me. Optimal is a hard thing to pin down in general. Find what is optimal for you.
I see we are both RDs. 
UHM, you are enhanced. Whether you want to admit it or not. The fact that it is prescribed TRT does not change that. At your given doses you are well above what the average male is at, ESPECIALLY at your age. Not to mention the fact the where most of as experience dips do to work, family, stress and life in general you do not. You are not natural…sorry.
Yes sir! 
. I saw how you felt about the Clinical setting. I can’t agree with you more lol. But it’s consistent lol.
No, shots fired, it is facts. This has been discussed in other threads and respected posters like flipcollar (who uses) agreed.
That Schoenfield study is very specific about what is covered, no one knows how hard the people in that study trained or so on.
That CT has come to state that 4-8 repetitions is the best for natural bodybuilding is good, means he caught up to me on that one! As for myself, I am not a fan of his, he wrote an article talking about how he got deathly bored if he continued on the same program for more than 6 weeks. So while I can take pieces of advice from him, like about how to grip for safety on deadlifts, I would never take advice for him on systemic training.
I have not posted an update on the program that I adapted to since I stopped dieting, but I train roughly 1-on 1-off. I have two main rep ranges, 8-15 and 4-8, And with an exception for 1 muscle group, every workout begins with an 8-15, then drops to 4-8 on the second set for an exercise, both to avoid injury and to save my CNS. I train to failure on every set except my deadlift variations, and 1 out of 4 workouts for every bodypart. Those workouts come just shy of failure and are referred to as active recovery. With this system I either progress out of the rep range or increase by at least a rep on every exercise in every workout.
The workout system has scheduled overload days, which are workouts where I do an 11-set superset. That is the most volume I do for any muscle group, and two of those sets are at the 20 rep range. These workouts comprise another 1/4 of the workouts I do. 50% of the workouts are in the 4 sets per bodypart (hamstrings, quads, biceps) to Back which has 8, only because the variety of muscles in that group. Every other bodypart, except calves (which has 2) has 5 sets. All of these sets are split between the two rep ranges as well, except the long head of the triceps which gets a set of 12-20.
I do not believe that you can just do “whatever works for you”, perhaps because of the length of limbs and so on, that will affect your mechanics, so you need to adapt to those requirements. But as regards everything else, people that are able to get away with doing something radically different from others are exceptional. Most people respond to most of the stimuli, mostly the same way. Like a bell-curve. This is why elite bodybuilders can get away with training so differently than everyone else, because even without the juice, they are people who grow relatively easy.
Hey im 14 and can easily bench 40 kilos. Should i try to double that or at least go 100. In my room i have a benchpress but the max weight i can put on is 40 because i don t have much weight plates. So when i go to the gym should i try to do 100?
I’ll throw my 2 cents in as a mildly competent lifter of weights that has tried various things over the years.
Basically ANYTHING that has you training hard works.
I have done the body-part-a-day splits (exclusively for the first 5-6 years I trained), DoggCrapp style training (low volume, high intensity, HIT-Style 3 training bouts over 2 weeks), High frequency stuff (3-7x a week, moderate volume and intensity each day) … My body never looked dramatically different on any of the schedules.
However, I will say that for the general trainee with the main priority of looking like they lift, the Body part split is the “easiest” in that its the least complicated to lay out and has the highest chance of success… You just go in a bomb away at that body part. As Brick has mentioned, there are smart ways of doing this, but in general you can just go in and do 3-4 exercises for 3-4 hard sets and you are covered.
Now, there are downsides to that split (in my opinion the worst one is being essentially mildly crippled from leg day for 3-4 days after) but yes… In regards to the topic of this thread, the bro-split is probably the most fail safe option to look like a person who works out, and the parameters that Brick set forth are very close to optimal for most people.
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Not just that but in addition I find it quite astonishing that how before the current era, it used to be just the common sense to apply more stimulation to lagging parts by applying more volume/frequency etc. and backing off to minimum with strong parts so as to create a balance symmetry or strength wise. Plenty of people accomplished this using typical BB body part splits, and I remember reading many great physical culturists calling this practice as much art as science.
May be the current practice of substantiating each and every move at gym with peer reviewed studies is more of a psychological antic to feel better rather than the justifiable application of abstract science.
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Lmao at having levels of 600 to 800 being assisted. At such normal values there is no supra physiological protein synthesis going on at all and to compare me to men who have multiples of my blood values is disingenuous.
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My given dose us 100 mg per week, a MEDICINAL dose prescribed by a doctor.
Exactly what a juice monkey would say 
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I will be responding to this more later. Are you an expert on TRT? Do you know the exact mechanisms at work when one is on TRT and when one is on amounts of T and other steroids that give them supraphysiologcal values?
Are you aware that insignificant fluctuations in T do not do a damn thing when it comes to health, well-being, protein synthesis, or how the T effects the tissues or nerves of the body (eg, such silly notions that if one’s favorite ball team loses, one’s T actually goes down, or similar occurrences because a meanie boss yelled at some guy).
I am VERY grateful that there is one natural organizations, the ANBF, that allows men such as myself to compete in a level playing field, or at least a field for which it is attempted that there is a level playing field. I NEVER wanted to take TRT for the past fifteen years, and actually look at having to deal with insurance companies at new jobs, praying that that new plans covered my doctor I’ve been using for over a decade, just using medicine in general and visiting a doctor, as one giant pain in the ass! The same way people with hypothyroidism, diabetes would rather not have these conditions, is the same way I wish I never was diagnosed with hypogonadism!
I sent a lengthy email to an official of the WNBF-INBF pleading my case, and that I’ve never touched AAS, and have used TRT under a qualified andrologist-urologist for MEDICINE only. I was extremely upset to be rejected by this official of what I think is the THE best natty org in the world. And so I am competing in the ANBF and then putting my ass up against assisted men in an NPC show.
Oh, and Flipcollar did comment in that thread. I’ve spoken to Flipcollar personally several times, and if he comes to NYC sometime, we plan on meeting! I don’t mean to sound abrasive or immature, but just because some guy agrees with someone else, whether I like the man or not, it doesn’t give more weight to a stance or view or whatever.
Call me a TRT patient if you wish to refer to me with a term other than the supposedly wrong term of “natural”. But don’t think I am going to take the word assisted for people being treated for medical conditions with medicine seriously, especially considering that men with hypogonadism who don’t even go to a gym or lift a weight (or foot or hand) need to be treated medically as well. Being treated for a medical conditions and going to a gym are mutually exclusive. It just so happens that people with medical conditions also work out (eg, asthmatics, diabetics, hypothyroidals, etc).
Just what was your point with this post of yours? To discredit what I’ve done with my body? Do you know how hurt I was when I was told I could not compete in the INBF after being completely honest about medicine for a medical conditions (nothing more) and being willing to be subjected to polygraph testing to insure I’ve not used anything else and have no interest in doing so, or cheating with an unfair advantage? Do you think I like taking medicine or that my condition has made it a pain in the ass to have kids without another drug?
Would you put your ass on the line in public against truly assisted men in an NPC show when all you’re doing is taking medicine for normal functioning as an adult male and to have kids?!
Sorry about my emotional, but what I think is a reasonable, response here. I just have no idea what you are trying to do in a forum I started to discuss bare-knuckles bodybuilding training with your drive-by statement.
Edit: Apparently I did not respond later.
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To call a person natural or not in this case is merely semantic. You can’t possibly compare a TRT dose to what is used by the top-level competitor, or even the average gym bro who struts around saying “eat clen and tren hard bro!”
There are guys that run up to and over a gram of test a week and cycle more compounds than you can pronounce who won’t ever see as many veins as Brick’s got.
There’s a big difference between a long time PED user like say flex wheeler who after decades of “abuse” and is now “on TRT”, and having his levels maintained at what I assume is a still fairly amount that allows him to retain a muscle mass beyond the average “clean” gym rat, and someone who was genuinely diagnosed as hypoginadal in their teens and has been on medically supervised and administered weekly treatments to support a minimum “normal” reading and live a healthy life.
I’m not expert, but I do personally see this as two very different situations
S
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Oh, and I do Also understand the position that tested federations are in. There is a pretty decent range of levels that could be termed normal, and most guys I’ve known who talk about TRT do so in describing their illegally purchased and self administered gear, albeit at a dosage they feel is below what Phil Heath is using in their justifications.
I will note though that despite Brads situation, (and he knows that I love him like a brother), he will still be getting onstage at a lower muscular bodyweight, and with smaller measurements than I did as a competitor. The point being that despite his amazing progress, he’s far from some hulking monster who is only playing the TRT-card so he can downplay his drug use, or win a natural show despite being a juice monkey.
S
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Oh, by the way, Flipcollar “uses” but is not receiving TRT (medicine in medicinal amounts prescribed by a doctor). I see you just left this differentiation out.
There are too many typos there to understand what you’re trying to say, but I think you’re insinuating that he doesn’t have work, family and stress? I’m pretty sure being an RD in a clinical setting is stressful, and work, and last time I checked, having a spouse qualifies as “family.” Additionally these factors have nothing to do with being natural or not. Are you saying because I work from home now and am not as stressed, I’m not natural? DAMN I wish I knew!
While I don’t know much about the juice, I do know that medically prescribed TRT can’t possibly be compared to a cycle a bodybuilder would do on or off season. Have you ever looked at the laundry list of the stuff they put in their bodies? Here’s a copy/paste from an article by Shadow Pro, IFBB pro bodybuilder.
16-Week Sample Cycle: Moderate to High Dosage
This is an example of a common pro-bodybuilder cycle. It’s something I’ve done before and I do not recommend this for anyone!
1-10 Testosterone Enanthate, 750mg a week (1000-1200mg advanced)
1-10 EQ, 800mg a week (1000mg advanced)
1-10 Tren E, 600mg/week (800mg advanced)
1-8 D-Bol, 50mg every day (up to 100mg advanced)
10-16 100mg Testosterone prop EOD (100mg ED advanced)
10-16 100mg Trenbolone Acetate EOD (75-100mg ED advanced)
10-16 100mg Masteron propionate EOD (100mg ED advanced)
10-16 50mg Winstrol or Anavar ED (sometime I do both)
8-16 Start T3 at 25mcg ED and taper up as needed.
12-16 Halotestin, start at 20mg ED and increase by 10mg every week (not a good choice for those who aren’t mentally strong.)
Pharmaceutical GH 6-12 IU ED for the whole cycle (If people can afford more then the sky is the limit. I know guys who’ve gone up to 30 IU but this is rare.)
Insulin For advanced lifters only! 5-10 IU pre-workout followed by drinking Plazma™ right away. This is a moderate dosage, a lot of guys are using much more.
Pretty sure that’s a little more than medical TRT.
As a natural, I can understand your initial reaction to want to say someone isn’t natural because you see the word “testosterone.” But you simply can’t compare medically prescribed TRT to a typical, or even low dose cycle. Also, as @The_Mighty_Stu pointed out[quote=“The_Mighty_Stu, post:100, topic:221756”]
he will still be getting onstage at a lower muscular bodyweight, and with smaller measurements than I did as a competitor.
[/quote]
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