T Nation

Bodybuilding for Sport Training

Will bodybuilding improve sports performance? If getting stronger and increasing lean mass is beneficial to your sport then the answer has to be yes. Is this optimal? maybe not.

Strength and conditioning for sports, depending on the coach, generally serves several purposes depending on the training phase.

  1. Correcting Imbalances and preventing injury
  2. Improving movement mechanics
  3. Improving metabolic conditioning
  4. Improving physical qualities (maximal strength, strength -speed, strength endurance etc etc etc)
  5. Improving body composition

All of the above are specific to the sport and individual.

I think that some of the cofusion appears when people assume that the corrective element to S + C encompasses what s + c is.

The goal of any decent strength and conditioning programme is to improve performance via increasing the physical elements of performance, not the skilled.

[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
heres my take and philosophy on this stuff,

if you train a split style, youre taking one or two parts and making them bigger and stronger everytime youre in the gym. we all know A) size produces strength B) mass moves mass

now if youre making each muscle stronger individually then imagine how much stronger youll be when you bring it all together and use it as one.

im not sure where the notion came about that in order to have a strong body the only movements you should involve the whole body. but its just not true.

[/quote]

I actually agree with you, little man (kidding, kidding about that last bit).

After all, the athletes will still have skill-training/actual sport sessions where their body learns how to use the new strength as it applies to the movements they actually do on the field…

[quote]Nikiforos wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Nikiforos wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

Soccer players would do their cardio with a ball, regular cardio will not benefit them in the same way because they could use a different, easier running technique…
On the field however, that technique would go to shit because they now have to deal with the ball while running…

Quick detour from the topic. Most soccer training methods (they vary from club to club and country to country) do train absolute speed with sprinting, sled running, parachute sprints etc.

Technique (ball control) is usually identified as a separate quality and so there are a lot of agility drills for that too.

As I said, I was just relaying what I’ve read from Poliquin and others…

This wasn’t about max speed, but just your regular running/“jogging” around the field as well as running with the ball.

I have personally never seen soccer teams/coaches over here do any of the stuff Poliquin and the other top coaches recommend… But then again, Germany is one of the most backwards countries in regards to training, it’s not funny anymore.
They just hire the best they can get for money and hope that it’s enough, as it seems.

Then again, I’m a bodybuilder and don’t know shit about this…

Yeah… well, take what American “top coaches” say about soccer with a grain of salt. Their ignorance is showing if they say aerobic running without the ball isn’t beneficial. Of course it is. You have to chase players more often than you have to run with the ball…

I understand that some of these authors will be dismissive of the European methods, but bear in mind the results. Football is probably the most competetive sport in the planet with regards to “making it”. You have to start early and become good fast. Some fundamental differences exist between it and some other sports which these “top coaches” coach for over in the US.
[/quote]

Seems to me a little like bodybuilding training (fads vs. what actual bodybuilders do).

the skill training itself is crucial but muscular training improves neural functionality which will give you faster reflexes and it will also improve your joint and tendon strength via heavy weight lifting which in turn will make you less prone to injury. you cant get that from a bosu ball.

[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
the skill training itself is crucial but muscular training improves neural functionality which will give you faster reflexes and it will also improve your joint and tendon strength via heavy weight lifting which in turn will make you less prone to injury. you cant get that from a bosu ball.[/quote]

good point, I mean in my mind if I go to the gym and I train legs and they get bigger and stonger and they get stronger fromskating then I dont see how that would not help. ALso if Im more massive its harder to move me in the conrer obviously

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4537419532095399712&ei=enCwSPHCCoLgqAK2muTdDA&q=poliquin+performance&vt=lf&hl=en

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=954027699903155591&ei=0nGwSOP9GoqUrgKqtrTxDA&q=hockey+training&vt=lf&hl=en

what do you guys think about that

[quote]hockechamp14 wrote:
crod266 wrote:
Like it has ladder drills in it to improve foot work but coach polquin says all they do is make u better at doing those drills, theres not carry over but its still in the book

The speed ladders are hardly going to make you faster. For younger athletes, they’re not a bad tool to teach foot dexterity and firing up the CNS when trying to do the drills fast. They shouldn’t be the only thing used.

While ladder drills aren’t awful, if you can teach an athlete how to accelerate/decelerate/hit top speed/pivot and such with good form, speed ladders are moot. A lot of coaches can’t/don’t teach any of those things.

One thing to note, is that Poliquin writes about how powerskating is b.s. – because something about a 300 pound gorilla on your back changes your skating. Fact is the best players are the best skaters. Crosby, Datsyuk, Zetterburg, Brind’amor are are great skaters from strength training AND skating training.[/quote]

This is true no doubt. I didnt now he said that, so hockey champ you play hockey as weve talked before, how do you train in and off season as far as wieghts plyos speed drills wat ev

hey Poliquin knows more than me, thats for sure.

i mean the methods in the videos definately look cooler than traditional bodybuilding but as long as your getting stronger and adding lean body mass it doesnt matter. im sure things like plyos are going to have a tremendous impact too though.

some of the things like the tire fight make sense because when youre in there fighting for the puck or just checkin people you need to know how to position your body and how to be able to fight it out like that.

[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
hey Poliquin knows more than me, thats for sure.

i mean the methods in the videos definately look cooler than traditional bodybuilding but as long as your getting stronger and adding lean body mass it doesnt matter. im sure things like plyos are going to have a tremendous impact too though.

some of the things like the tire fight make sense because when youre in there fighting for the puck or just checkin people you need to know how to position your body and how to be able to fight it out like that.[/quote]

yea I mean some of that I coudlnt even do if I wanted because I dont have all that stuff so ill prob put in what I can but manly use bb splits

Crod, a traditional BB split is great for bodybuilding but an inferior way to train as an athlete. I think CC said that most strength coaches use the weightroom to get strong and sports practice to get better at your sport. That’s how I feel. A split is a bodybuilders “practice”.The stage is their “sport” . Do a strength based program and eat to fuel performance. Just like countless bodybuilders swear by splits because they work, countless athletes swear by upper/lower or total body because it works.

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Crod, a traditional BB split is great for bodybuilding but an inferior way to train as an athlete. I think CC said that most strength coaches use the weightroom to get strong and sports practice to get better at your sport. That’s how I feel. A split is a bodybuilders “practice”.The stage is their “sport” . Do a strength based program and eat to fuel performance. Just like countless bodybuilders swear by splits because they work, countless athletes swear by upper/lower or total body because it works. [/quote]

Upper/lower is a form of split.

On the one hand I agree, but on the other hand:

A bodybuilder’s “practice” would be posing practice, to be honest, and the stage the sport(this one you got right).

The gym is the same thing for both bb’ers and athletes imo(where you get stronger/bigger as needed and may also do stretches etc), they just train somewhat differently (athletes would usually not do 2-3 exercises for their biceps and would likely use different rep-ranges and such… I’m just guessing on this one).

I know thib isnt really posting right now because he got married but im sure if he were hear he would have somethuing good to ad considering he trains hockey players

I have another question to anyonre that might know. What exectly is considered plyometrics, thib said to only use them a couple times out of the year but would agility and quckiness drills be plyometrics also?

[quote]crod266 wrote:
I have another question to anyonre that might know. What exectly is considered plyometrics, thib said to only use them a couple times out of the year but would agility and quckiness drills be plyometrics also?[/quote]

I think CT was talking about high intensity depth drops/rebound jumps. They’re good for a boost to even out your explosive ability to the level your strength allows, but their benefits drop off relatively quickly.

Agility and quickness are plyometric activities, as is sprinting, jumping, and such. However I wouldn’t discourage doing those drills as long as you’re still able to do everything else to get stronger, and you’re eating enough.

In athletics, it’s so important to be able to understand what your body is doing, and being attuned to how you’re moving, that almost any chance athletes have to do that kind of thing is going to be beneficial.

But again, I would only reccomend that if you’re not over training, eating enough, and aren’t taking away from your gains otherwise. In season they’re not very necessary if you’re on the ice more than 3 hours a week.

And in response to how I train in the off season – Well, I didn’t have much of one this past season, spent a lot of time at camps for teams, and a month recovering from injury.

If I had to design as perfect program as possible I would basically start with Berardi’s concepts of g-flux. Get as much quality exercise as you can, training all the things required for your position. Then eat a crap ton to gain some muscle.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
WhiteFlash wrote:
Crod, a traditional BB split is great for bodybuilding but an inferior way to train as an athlete. I think CC said that most strength coaches use the weightroom to get strong and sports practice to get better at your sport.

That’s how I feel. A split is a bodybuilders “practice”.The stage is their “sport” . Do a strength based program and eat to fuel performance. Just like countless bodybuilders swear by splits because they work, countless athletes swear by upper/lower or total body because it works.

Upper/lower is a form of split.

On the one hand I agree, but on the other hand:

A bodybuilder’s “practice” would be posing practice, to be honest, and the stage the sport(this one you got right).

The gym is the same thing for both bb’ers and athletes imo(where you get stronger/bigger as needed and may also do stretches etc), they just train somewhat differently (athletes would usually not do 2-3 exercises for their biceps and would likely use different rep-ranges and such… I’m just guessing on this one).
[/quote]

I still consider a bodybuilders “practice” lifting. You can’t flex bone, and since their “sport” is about size/symmetry they’re getting better at/for their “sport” when lifting.

That’s why they lift heavier and eat more in the off-season. Just my opinion. A bodybuilder trains to exhaust the muscle and add size/symmetry. An athlete lifts to get stronger [and maybe bigger depending] to perform better on the field/court/rink.

You’re right about the gym being the means to the end for both. That’s why I posted what I posted. An athlete should spend most of his/her time on powerlifts,olympic lifts and their variants to maximize strength, power and neural efficiancy. A bodybuilder should spend his time working on what the judges told him/her to.

EDIT: In the end I guess they’re both trying to maximize strengths and correct and enhance their weaknesses.

Exercise choice for athletes and bodybuilders are similar some of the time because many athletes ARE bodybuilders to a certain extent. So some of the training practices can and obviously DO overlap.

The difference is that a well trained athlete should draw upon a few tools from other disciplines as well. That’s why Olympics, powerlifting, sprint training, plyos, ladder drills, etc. can all be used within a well designed program.

The caveat that you should ALWAYS keep in mind when training an athlete is specificity. With everything, you must think, “How will this exercise help the athlete?” Just like the example above for a hockey player… ladder drills have little carry over; but for a football player, ladder drills are awesome.

[quote]hockechamp14 wrote:
crod266 wrote:
I have another question to anyonre that might know. What exectly is considered plyometrics, thib said to only use them a couple times out of the year but would agility and quckiness drills be plyometrics also?

I think CT was talking about high intensity depth drops/rebound jumps. They’re good for a boost to even out your explosive ability to the level your strength allows, but their benefits drop off relatively quickly.

Agility and quickness are plyometric activities, as is sprinting, jumping, and such. However I wouldn’t discourage doing those drills as long as you’re still able to do everything else to get stronger, and you’re eating enough.

In athletics, it’s so important to be able to understand what your body is doing, and being attuned to how you’re moving, that almost any chance athletes have to do that kind of thing is going to be beneficial.

But again, I would only reccomend that if you’re not over training, eating enough, and aren’t taking away from your gains otherwise. In season they’re not very necessary if you’re on the ice more than 3 hours a week.

And in response to how I train in the off season – Well, I didn’t have much of one this past season, spent a lot of time at camps for teams, and a month recovering from injury.

If I had to design as perfect program as possible I would basically start with Berardi’s concepts of g-flux. Get as much quality exercise as you can, training all the things required for your position. Then eat a crap ton to gain some muscle.[/quote]

ok man I gotcha thanks alot

When it comes to training an athlete there are a mutitude of different training techniques which can and should be employed. Yes hypertrophy training will help as it increases muscle mass whih in turn enables more work to be done (more actin-myosin cross bridges) but it’s not the only story.

Other components of muscle contraction such as the neural componnts as well as the passive components such as muscle stiffness/compliability must be trained also to get the most out of the athlete.

Trainig solely like a bodybuilder probably wontenable you to get the most out of your body, and think also about the quality of the mass that you are putting on.

As a hockey player lower body mass and abdominal/core strength and power will aid you the most. most upper body movements should be centred around stability and injury prevention as well as strength, not as much hypertrophy.