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Bodybuilding for Sport Training

I made this thread to acually discus the getting strong by lifting heavy shit vs the so called functional shit that your supposed to use apparently for sports. Most people prob do now know but there is a guy named peter twist who used to be(not sure if he still is) the training coach of the vancouver canucks. Now he has two books, one that came out around 98 and one that came out around 2006-2007. These two books are completely opposite and yet there both about hockey training.

He has one book where it has all the stengh section as more like bodybuilding training. It has the bench press for chest and bicep curl for bicpes and stuff like that. THis is how I train even now im a hockey player i still train like a bodybuilder. He has his share of other stuff for speed but thats the strengh stuff. THen you have his 2nd book which has eveyrhting from bosu balls to stability balls and doing all types of shit. He has on thing that you do a shoulder press while on a bosu ball.

Now some explain to me how the fuck that is going to help me in hockey.It also has alot of stuff on core strengh and rotary core strengh but some of the excersies are so fucking dum and not foir nothing but the guys who played 20 yeears ago didnt do any of that shut. I have a hard time belveing that me gaining another 50-60 pounds of moslty muscle and getting a hell of alot stronger is going to not help me in hockey as well as getting strong. Now I could see how maybe doing alot of bicep work will not help but thats about it.

Now what do you guys think is right I mean the 2nd book has squats and lunges but everything else is like pushups with a hockey stick on a stabiltiy ball and stuff like that. Now you could say he doesnt know anything but hes the trainer of an nhl team so I mean someone must think hes right. I mean I still think that if I gain alot more muscle and gett alot stronger than it will be harder to move me and ill just be better in general. So what does everything think?

wow you wrote so damn much my head is spinning…

my eyes fell upon the words bosu ball, i got scared, and i am now leaving this thread!

Lift heavy shit. Don’t fuck around with bosu balls and all that crap.

A truck hits harder than a bicycle.

Why don’t you post this in “Strength Sports” ?
Why in “Bodybuilding” ?

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Why don’t you post this in “Strength Sports” ?
Why in “Bodybuilding” ?[/quote]

well because even know the tpoic is about sporrts training the debate concerns bodybuilding because thats currently what I train like

I really don’t think training like a bodybuilder is optimal for sports training.

I also don’t like the fact that you have tried to get people onside by lashing out at bosu balls and such. Does lifting heavy shit beat ballerina twirls on a bosu ball? Every time. It’s not a point in need of discussion.

Training for maximum size and symmetry is the best way to train for maximum size and symmetry. It stands to reason that it is likely not the best way to train for athletic performance. I believe that a good combination of strength, hypertrophy and speed training will trump a bodypart split every time.

Will bodybuilding improve your performance in hockey? Probably. I can’t see any disadvantage in being bigger and stronger.

What would have made an interesting question is the following: How compatible is bodybuilding with sport? Is it possible to combine a great physique with a solid game? Unfortunately I cannot answer this question, but would gratefully receive replies from those who can.

Barry Bonds used a traditional bodybuilding routine with bodypart splits and it seemed to work for him.

There are so many variables in training an athlete it is impossible to say what is best.

Set specific goals and work towards them.

If you are in a mass building phase during the off season you can afford to destroy your legs with hard leg days. In season you cannot, etc.

You need to identify specific qualities that you need to work on for hockey and find ways to train them.

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
You need to identify specific qualities that you need to work on for hockey and find ways to train them.[/quote]

Do you play/coach hockey and thus actually know what you’re talking about?

(this is a serious question.)

Like a wise one once said:

Or you can do like Guy Lafleur, eat a steak and score 2 goals.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
You need to identify specific qualities that you need to work on for hockey and find ways to train them.

Do you play/coach hockey and thus actually know what you’re talking about?

(this is a serious question.)[/quote]

No, I don’t know anything about hockey, but why would this be different than every other sport? If you’re not finding things to improve and then working on them, then what are you doing? That’s the whole goal of sport training.

Granted it was very general advice, but it’s precisely what he needs to do. Instead of asking if this or that is right for hockey, it would be better to actually figure out what kinds of physical capacities you need for hockey and then find ways to effectively train them. Again, like any other sport.

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
You need to identify specific qualities that you need to work on for hockey and find ways to train them.

Do you play/coach hockey and thus actually know what you’re talking about?

(this is a serious question.)

No, I don’t know anything about hockey, but why would this be different than every other sport? If you’re not finding things to improve and then working on them, then what are you doing? That’s the whole goal of sport training.

Granted it was very general advice, but it’s precisely what he needs to do. Instead of asking if this or that is right for hockey, it would be better to actually figure out what kinds of physical capacities you need for hockey and then find ways to effectively train them. Again, like any other sport.
[/quote]

Not that I know anything about sports-training, but the prevalent opinion of the (supposedly)best strength-coaches who train athletes seems to be:

The gym is there to get stronger and correct weak links/imbalances, nothing else. Use your actual sports/skill training sessions to get better at the sport itself and get your body used to it’s new strength so that it may use it as necessary.

Endurance and such is built by playing your sport and maybe some type of cardio that mimics the ratio of activity vs rest on the field, but also tries to emulate what you do while actually playing.

Soccer players would do their cardio with a ball, regular cardio will not benefit them in the same way because they could use a different, easier running technique…
On the field however, that technique would go to shit because they now have to deal with the ball while running…

Mind you, this is just what I read on the topic.
I have no personal experience with sports-training, so pick those statements apart as you wish.

Just trying to keep the conversation going here.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
You need to identify specific qualities that you need to work on for hockey and find ways to train them.

Do you play/coach hockey and thus actually know what you’re talking about?

(this is a serious question.)

No, I don’t know anything about hockey, but why would this be different than every other sport? If you’re not finding things to improve and then working on them, then what are you doing? That’s the whole goal of sport training.

Granted it was very general advice, but it’s precisely what he needs to do. Instead of asking if this or that is right for hockey, it would be better to actually figure out what kinds of physical capacities you need for hockey and then find ways to effectively train them. Again, like any other sport.

Not that I know anything about sports-training, but the prevalent opinion of the (supposedly)best strength-coaches who train athletes seems to be:

The gym is there to get stronger and correct weak links/imbalances, nothing else. Use your actual sports/skill training sessions to get better at the sport itself and get your body used to it’s new strength so that it may use it as necessary.

Endurance and such is built by playing your sport and maybe some type of cardio that mimics the ratio of activity vs rest on the field, but also tries to emulate what you do while actually playing.

Soccer players would do their cardio with a ball, regular cardio will not benefit them in the same way because they could use a different, easier running technique…
On the field however, that technique would go to shit because they now have to deal with the ball while running…

Mind you, this is just what I read on the topic.
I have no personal experience with sports-training, so pick those statements apart as you wish.

Just trying to keep the conversation going here.

[/quote]

not bad I see where your coming from

[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
I really don’t think training like a bodybuilder is optimal for sports training.

I also don’t like the fact that you have tried to get people onside by lashing out at bosu balls and such. Does lifting heavy shit beat ballerina twirls on a bosu ball? Every time. It’s not a point in need of discussion.

Training for maximum size and symmetry is the best way to train for maximum size and symmetry. It stands to reason that it is likely not the best way to train for athletic performance. I believe that a good combination of strength, hypertrophy and speed training will trump a bodypart split every time.

Will bodybuilding improve your performance in hockey? Probably. I can’t any disadvantage in being bigger and stronger.

What would have made an interesting question is the following: How compatible is bodybuilding with sport? Is it possible to combine a great physique with a solid game? Unfortunately I cannot answer this question, but would gratefully receive replies from those who can. [/quote]

I see what your saying but i was not trying to sway people awy from bosu balls and all that but I asked because alot of stuff in that book uses them and I personaly didnt think they worked but I was asking. Like it has ladder drills in it to improve foot work but coach polquin says all they do is make u better at doing those drills, theres not carry over but its still in the book

Do a traditional bodybuilding routine. If it’s getting you stronger in the big lifts, and isn’t getting in the way of your recovery for the actual sports training.

If your bench, deadlift, and squat’s going up, and you can give everything in training with the team as well, then do what you want.

[quote]crod266 wrote:
Like it has ladder drills in it to improve foot work but coach polquin says all they do is make u better at doing those drills, theres not carry over but its still in the book

[/quote]

The speed ladders are hardly going to make you faster. For younger athletes, they’re not a bad tool to teach foot dexterity and firing up the CNS when trying to do the drills fast. They shouldn’t be the only thing used.

While ladder drills aren’t awful, if you can teach an athlete how to accelerate/decelerate/hit top speed/pivot and such with good form, speed ladders are moot. A lot of coaches can’t/don’t teach any of those things.

One thing to note, is that Poliquin writes about how powerskating is b.s. – because something about a 300 pound gorilla on your back changes your skating. Fact is the best players are the best skaters. Crosby, Datsyuk, Zetterburg, Brind’amor are are great skaters from strength training AND skating training.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

Soccer players would do their cardio with a ball, regular cardio will not benefit them in the same way because they could use a different, easier running technique…
On the field however, that technique would go to shit because they now have to deal with the ball while running…

[/quote]

Quick detour from the topic. Most soccer training methods (they vary from club to club and country to country) do train absolute speed with sprinting, sled running, parachute sprints etc.

Technique (ball control) is usually identified as a separate quality and so there are a lot of agility drills for that too.

[quote]Nikiforos wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

Soccer players would do their cardio with a ball, regular cardio will not benefit them in the same way because they could use a different, easier running technique…
On the field however, that technique would go to shit because they now have to deal with the ball while running…

Quick detour from the topic. Most soccer training methods (they vary from club to club and country to country) do train absolute speed with sprinting, sled running, parachute sprints etc.

Technique (ball control) is usually identified as a separate quality and so there are a lot of agility drills for that too.[/quote]

As I said, I was just relaying what I’ve read from Poliquin and others…

This wasn’t about max speed, but just your regular running/“jogging” around the field as well as running with the ball.

I have personally never seen soccer teams/coaches over here do any of the stuff Poliquin and the other top coaches recommend… But then again, Germany is one of the most backwards countries in regards to training, it’s not funny anymore.
They just hire the best they can get for money and hope that it’s enough, as it seems.

Then again, I’m a bodybuilder and don’t know shit about this…

heres my take and philosophy on this stuff,

if you train a split style, youre taking one or two parts and making them bigger and stronger everytime youre in the gym. we all know A) size produces strength B) mass moves mass

now if youre making each muscle stronger individually then imagine how much stronger youll be when you bring it all together and use it as one.

im not sure where the notion came about that in order to have a strong body the only movements you should involve the whole body. but its just not true.

problem seems to be that split training and the word bodybuilding got mixed together. you can train split style for anything, theres less overall cns fatigue and you can focus more on that muscle. id reccomended lower reps and starting each session off with a compound with emphasis on that part, so obviously if youre ttraining chest and tris train bench first, back, train dead first, legs train squat first.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Nikiforos wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

Soccer players would do their cardio with a ball, regular cardio will not benefit them in the same way because they could use a different, easier running technique…
On the field however, that technique would go to shit because they now have to deal with the ball while running…

Quick detour from the topic. Most soccer training methods (they vary from club to club and country to country) do train absolute speed with sprinting, sled running, parachute sprints etc.

Technique (ball control) is usually identified as a separate quality and so there are a lot of agility drills for that too.

As I said, I was just relaying what I’ve read from Poliquin and others…

This wasn’t about max speed, but just your regular running/“jogging” around the field as well as running with the ball.

I have personally never seen soccer teams/coaches over here do any of the stuff Poliquin and the other top coaches recommend… But then again, Germany is one of the most backwards countries in regards to training, it’s not funny anymore.
They just hire the best they can get for money and hope that it’s enough, as it seems.

Then again, I’m a bodybuilder and don’t know shit about this…
[/quote]

Yeah… well, take what American “top coaches” say about soccer with a grain of salt. Their ignorance is showing if they say aerobic running without the ball isn’t beneficial. Of course it is. You have to chase players more often than you have to run with the ball…

I understand that some of these authors will be dismissive of the European methods, but bear in mind the results. Football is probably the most competetive sport in the planet with regards to “making it”. You have to start early and become good fast. Some fundamental differences exist between it and some other sports which these “top coaches” coach for over in the US.