[quote]timmcbride00 wrote:
[quote]lemony2j wrote:
Ok I’ve got a question:
I’d be interested to know a few different theories and experiences with competitors’, ‘peak week’ experiences regarding water manipulation, carb-loading etc. what worked, what didn’t work and what would you do differently?[/quote]
I hope this isn’t too much info (copy and pasted from my prep log):
As promised, I am writing up my thoughts on the recent carb load.
Let me first say that NONE of what I am about to write would have impacted the contest. The gentleman who beat me was nearly as lean but I would estimate he had a SOLID 15 pounds on me. I am writing this up to put my thoughts into words and theorize about how I would approach it next time.
What was the same:
I used the same depletion and load protocol during my October 2010 “mock” contest prep and this current one. Depletion and load were both based on bodyweight and were only 5 pounds different from October 2010 to April 2012.
I did tire dragging as my main source of depletion workouts both times
I use similar carb sources; both for the main load (vast majority rice, second source was potatoes) and for contest day (Raptor bars, chocolate, peanut butter, extra salt, etc)
What was different:
Coming into the October 2010 prep week, I was eating 180g carbs a day. Coming into the April 2012 prep week I was eating 300g carbs a day.
I was holding more water in my legs in 2010 than I was this time (I was also leaner in my legs in terms of fat, but I base this on the change in my legs during the 2010 prep, I could see them dry out during the load)
What I expect out of a depletion and load:
Based on discussing the deplete and load with CT in my old thread, I expected to weigh about the same, if not a pound or two heavier after the process.
CT wrote:
My recommendation would be to carb up more next time… shoot for being roughly the same weight after the carb-load as you were before the deplete
Let me use math to demonstrate what I mean.
Here’s my dorky formula:
Lean Mass + Glygogen in Muscles (normal amount) + Water attracted to that Glycogen + Water under skin = Total Weight
As I understand it, the idea of the depletion/load is twofold, 1) temporarily increase the ability of your muscles to store glycogen and 2) by cutting out water right before the show you draw the water under the skin into the muscle cells if there is any left.
You may be lower after the deplete because:
Lean Mass (likely not changing in a few days) + Glycogen in Muscles (nearly none) + Water attracted to that Glycogen (again nearly none) + Water under the skin (maybe less due to flushing effect of deplete) = Total Weight lighter than before
So here’s how I understand it when CT says you should weigh at least the same:
Lean Mass (likely not changing in a few days) + Glycogen in Muscles (supercompensation by a factor of 2 to 3 times more glycogen storage is possible) + Water attracted to that Glycogen (2.7 grams of water for all that extra glycogen) + Water under the skin (definitely less as it gets sucked into glycogen stores) = Total Weight same or greater than before due to supercompensation
Important questions:
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What if your muscles are already basically full and storing glycogen at near maximal levels?
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What if you aren’t holding much subcutaneous water?
I am thinking that CT’s training methods lead me to a point where I did not have much to gain by the depletion and load. You all saw my video two week and one week out videos. Regarding #2, I was clearly not holding water. Some of the comments were:
Sickly lean
Stupidly shredded
Shredded to the bone
Skin paper thin
Ridiculous
Insanely shredded
absolutely diced
feathering in your glutes and hams
I am not trying to toot my own horn, but to make the point that I had very little to gain from the protocol, at least in terms of reducing water retention. Clearly from the comments I wasn’t a bloated whale leading up to the contest prep week, lol.
Maybe I could have gained some fullness from the glycogen supercompensation, but I am not so sure and I want to look at that part next.
Why did I drop so much weight this time?
During my previous deplete and load, I started the depletion at 170 pounds and finished the depletion at 170 pounds. After loading, I was 167.5. The fact that I didn?t lose any weight during the deplete indicates that I probably was already depleted due to 1) Taking in less carbs overall compared to this current time, 180g vs 300g and 2) Taking in less carbs periworkout 40g vs 60g
What about this time?
I dropped 4 pounds during the deplete. I think we can agree that in terms of weight loss, you can lose muscle, fat, and water (from muscle glycogen and under the skin). I took in plently of calories, protein and amino acids during the deplete so I think we can rule out muscle or fat loss. From the comments above, I think we can rule out subcutaneous water. That leaves water from muscle glygocen.
I truly think I my muscles were pretty full at one week out and I flattened out during the deplete.
Now, there is not necessarily anything wrong with that, because the deplete is supposed to increase the muscle’s ability to store glycogen. But then you better be sure you jack up the carbs.
Now I should have learned my lesson from the last time. I took in 500g plus carbs during the 2010 load. Nearly 3 times what I was consuming leading up to the last week. It still was not enough as I dropped 2.5 pounds over the load. This 2012 load was PROPORTIONALLY less. I took in roughly 600g carbs each load day, but I was eating 300g the week prior so it was only twice what I was used to. If 3 times what I was used to (in the 2010 load) wasn?t enough, I don?t know why I thought 2 times would be. But I was using the protocol based on bodyweight and did not factor in my previous intake.
I seriously think I could have handled about 900g per day.
But at that point, you have to ask, is it worth it? Why go through the trouble of a 3 day deplete, then cram your face with 900g carbs per day, you would be talking serious amounts of food (not that 600g is small, lol!), and lots of stomach distension going on. I would be concerned with waking up with a seriously distended stomach on contest day.
I am thinking the depletion/load protocol would be worth it only if you were clearly holding water and already looking sort of flat from the diet. Because if you are looking flat, than you don’t really have anything to lose by flattening out a little bit more from the deplete and you potentially have much to gain by filling out after the load.
CT’s Methods
I believe CT’s methods reduced water retention (as he has mentioned numerous times) due to the increased CNS activation from explosive training and vertical jumps. Not to mention, I drink plenty of fluids and don?t have crazy variations in sodium intake, so my body is pretty regularly in a health flushing mode.
Further, I believe CT’s methods increase muscle fullness for several reasons. One, he talks about training segmentation, where if you have the time, it is best to train multiple times per day. I may only hit barbells once per day, but a typical day is jumps or band work in the AM (and now Overhead Holds), barbell training at 11am, posing at various times throughout the day, and typically an afternoon or evening mini session which is concentric focused.
That means I am effectively nutrient partitioning all day with all the times my muscles are contracting. So my muscles are uptaking glucose very efficiently pretty much all day.
Water Intake on Show day
One final issue I have with the depletion/load protocol is the whole idea of only taking in sips of water on show day. If my body is in flushing mode from drinking 1 to 2 gallons of water regularly, why would I suddenly retain it on the day of the show? I am not saying drink so much water that your stomach is distended, but I wouldn’t stress over it.
In fact, on Friday, my water intake was planned at 12 cups, down from about 17 or 18 cups on Thursday. But I started to cramp and Stu suggested taking in more water (I ended up taking in just over 1 gallon for the day) and delaying my water cut off. As soon as I started taking in more water to catch up on Friday, my vascularity improved, which makes sense, because vascularity is contingent on blood volume and blood volume in turn depends on fluid intake.
I wish I had paid more attention to this on Friday, because Saturday, I noticed it was harder to get a pump as the day went on, and even harder to get vascular. By late evening, my vascularity would go away within minutes of stopping my pump up. It was not a lack of carbs as I had consumed almost 500 grams of carbs throughout Saturday. Normally, with working out and consuming that many carbs, I would be looking very nice, but it was hard to get a pump and even harder to stay vascular. I would reason that my blood volume was low.
And of course, the fact that I consumed 5 QUARTS of water in 90 minutes post show and barely urinated over the following 12 hours tells me that I was dehydrated. I must say, it is AMAZING how fast you can dehydrate and how it effects you. It doesn’t matter that I was drinking 1 to 2 gallons all week (and I regularly consume 1 gallon a day) and drinking water up until 9pm Friday. The simple fact of not drinking on Saturday left me dehydrated and affected my pump and vascularity. Now, as I stated at the beginning, this would not have affected the outcome of the show, so I am not stressed about it at all, just getting my thoughts out there for critique so I can plan my next show (years down the road).
What would I do differently?
If I ever ran this protocol again, I would be very generous with the carbs during the load stage, not calculating on percentage of bodyweight, but instead using a multiplier based on what I was consuming before, so based on proportion. Making sure to take in at least 3 times what I was taking in prior to the depletion. And I would not cut water. I may not take in as much as usual, but I would probably drink as needed for thirst.
However, I will probably NOT do this protocol again, I will likely do a more conservative approach. Reading an interview with Lee Labrada, he basically just cut sodium down during the final 48 hours to make sure his body was flushing water and then used a Water In/Water Out policy on show day. Meaning he would drink roughly the equivalent of whatever he just urinated out to make sure his fluids where fairly constant. You can’t argue with his results.
In the future, I would likely follow what Layne Norton outlines in his peak week nutrition article. He front loads the carbs while he is still training hard at the beginning of the week. He trains legs hard for the last time on Monday and still is training normal for upper body on Tuesday and Wednesday. I would adapt that slightly and still include sled dragging for legs later in the week since I train legs at a higher frequency. I would also use Labrada’s plan for sodium where as Layne Norton still has higher intake listed in that article (although, I wonder if it is a typo because in a previous contest diet article he recommends dropping sodium very low right before a show). Layne also takes in nearly a Ã?½ gallon in the morning of the show with his first few meals. I personally feel like I would have looked better had I done that.
I know this, I looked better at one week out and I look better RIGHT NOW than I did on show day. Why?
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In both cases (one week out and right now), because I am fully hydrated, I think it is that important.
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And also because my muscles have more glycogen in them now, they simply couldn?t recover from the depletion.
Do not get me wrong, this is not an “I missed my peak” rant.
I looked shredded on Saturday and I could not be more pleased with the results, however, I can admit I was not at 100% and there is room for improvement.
Thus, I will learn from my mistakes, not repeat them, and do it even better next time. [/quote]
awesome read thanks!
i may compete again in september and i dont plan to hire anyone this time- so this thread is a great start
also id reccomend anyone who likes reading on these topics to read John meadows site- he has great info on the nuances of competing