T Nation

Bloodwork and Estrogen Ratio

I’ve been on 200mg of Test ethanate and was taking .25 arimidex twice a week with injection. Numbers are total t >1500
And free test above ratio as well, which is fine. However e2 is 17, which I assume is low with those higher t numbers? I haven’t been feeling great and blood pressure is up some and can’t sleep great either, feeling hot and like my heart is racing. All other bloods are ok. Glucose is a little high but hemocrat etc are fine. Any solutions or help with this?

Stop the AI. My TT is probably around 900 and e2 like 50s I’m fine

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E2 is a non issue. We don’t even measure it anymore. If you feel fine, you’re good. If you still have symptoms increase dose.

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So
Would the low e2 or the arimidex cause the restless sleep and feeling of being hot and restless. Not sure what else is causing bp to be High either

Yes… Low E2 causes a myriad of side effects, mostly unpleasant.

I finally have my best sleep in years by raising my dose and ditching the AI.

You are incredibly stubborn and must have been an obnoxious child. You are just going to piss people off with your one sided approach.

So if they are sides to low E2, then there must also be sides to high E2.

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I wasn’t. I was an angel :innocent: lol

That is the dumbest thing you’ve said so far.

So if there is a side effect to too little AIR, then there must also be sides to too much air. One has nothing to do with the other!

Ask anyone who has crashed their E2 by using too much of an AI. Happened to me also. Low E2 feels like DEATH.

HIGH E2 and low free T makes you symptomatic. It’s not the high E2 doing it. It’s the low free T.

High E2 and high free T makes men feel amazing. There are literally hundreds of guys in our group that will attest to that.

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Agree to your statement. My clinic says the exact same thing. I was stubborn and thought estrogen was the devil

I’m on 185mg/week IM EOD and no AI with total T - 1999, free T - 36 (25 is top normal), E2 is 77. I feel way better than when I was taking .125mg anastrozol twice a week.

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Dont you all get bloated with out ai?

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E2 isn’t what causes the bloat. This guy has E2 at 77 and feels amazing. How is this possible??? Lol!

E2 doesn’t do any of the stuff you guys think.

So what is it that creates bloat on trt If it isnt e2.

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So what causes someone to retain water? I guess someone with low t and high e2 would do the trick? Makes sense. All about ratios I would think. If my total t is 2000 and e2 is 17 that’s wrong. If my total t is 730
And my e2 is 17 then would be considered ok?

Some guys get some bloat when they first start off with TRT. There are a lot of changes going on. Typically you can just ride it out and it tends to resolve on its own. You can speed things up by taking a diuretic. Once the water retention goes away it tends to stay away.

Careful of diuretic as they can deplete potassium, unless using a loop diuretic which is more dangerous than low potassium since it spares potassium and should be monitored closely as high potassium can stop your heart.

I personally would want E2 higher, <20 is just too low. I like my E2 closer to 30, I’ve even had it as high as 70 with no symptoms other than teary eyes during sad movies.

No symptoms at 70…but better at 30.

Why would you want to block something that was causing you no symptoms? Better how? If it didn’t give you symptoms how could it be better at 30?

The 50mg twice weekly protocol was causing swings in levels, felt off by day 3 and began to inject smaller doses EOD. I didn’t respond well to TRT injecting every 3.5 days, had only mild cognitive improvements and no muscle or erections at all and was doing every 3.5 days 6 months.

Started injecting EOD and like a bam, everything started improving fast, muscles were growing fast and veins were popping in less than 6 weeks. SHBG is on the lower end 16-22. My estrogen decreased to 40-50’s on an EOD, to the 30’s on 7-10 ED with similar Total T levels.

The daily protocol was amazing.

@systemlord there is a very simple explanation for this.

Where you are getting misled is your fear of E2 just as I had. It is distracting you from the REAL reason why you felt better doing EOD versus twice weekly, and why you would have potentially felt even better doing ED.

When I used to fear E2, here are some of the things that used to go through my head and surely go through yours:

  1. “…I don’t feel as good today. Maybe I’m taking too much of my AI and my E2 is getting too low. Or maybe I’m not taking enough and it’s too high? Which one is it?”

  2. “… Now I know why I don’t feel optimized. Look at my sensitive E2 labs I just got. They are at 35 pg/mL. I know the idea range is between 20-30. I should probably take more AI and get my E2 into the magical range and then I’ll feel better.”

  3. “… I’m taking plenty of testosterone. My total T levels are already above the clinical range. My issues must be too much E2!.”

Admit, at least, that this is how you think. This is the way most guys think and I was previously guilty of the same thing. Here’s the ACTUAL answer. All of the above is absolute bullshit. I’ll explain:

We KNOW that higher doses of T will aromatise MORE into E2. I doubt very much that you will disagree with that, because it’s true. Smaller doses of T will convert LESS into E2. This naturally leads you to believe that E2 is the ‘bad guy’. Well, you would be wrong.

What happens when T converts to E2. Well, first of all you wind up with more E2, right? That doesn’t matter one bit. In fact, it is irrelevant. More importantly, you wind up with LESS testosterone! So, if you take one big dose a week, this happens:

  1. The large dose means a greater portion of it will convert to E2 leaving you with less testosterone.

  2. Your body can never properly stabilize because of the spike on the first day and the quick decline throughout the week. All other hormones are constantly having to adjust based on the new norm of the day and never just settle in on a comfortable level.

You began to feel better when you moved to EOD. So why is that? It’s because of two reasons:

  1. You were giving yourself SMALLER doses at a time which resulted in LESS conversion to E2 which, more importantly, meant you wound up with MORE testosterone.

  2. The more frequent, small doses caused less ups and downs during the week and made it significantly more easy for all your other hormones to stabilize.

  3. Moving to ED would improve this process even further. Your doses would become even SMALLER than EOD, and your body would be receiving a daily, constant stream of testosterone just as the body does naturally. If you tried ED I guarantee you that you would feel even better than EOD. I hate giving myself shots but everytime I get lazy and start doing it EOD I start noticing the difference within a week. Night and day.

What you failed to realize is that you had an INCREASE in testosterone moving to EOD. Instead, you were so caught up with the ‘bad guy’ E2, watching those levels like a hawk, and as soon as your E2 levels dropped you immediately concluded that it was why you were feeling better, completely ignoring the fact that the increase in testosterone is what made you feel better. You also stated at the end that daily protocol was amazing and this is PRECISELY for the reasons I just stated.

Again, you guys need to STOP worrying about E2. It is absolutely irrelevant. You need to find ways to get your T levels high enough until all of your symptoms resolve. I swear to you, it is as simple as that. If you continue to believe E2 is your enemy you will NEVER feel optimized. I’ve been through it. Hundreds of guys in our group have been through it. Most of them still can’t believe that they are having sex multiple times a day with E2 over 120! We were brainwashed into believing this nonsense and once you unlearn what you have learned, and start feeling better, you’ll be kicking yourself as to why you believed this nonsense for so long in the first place just as I went through. I wasted three and a half YEARS because I was too stubborn to erase the bro science from my head. Now I am screaming it from the mountain tops just as I wish someone would have done to me.

Your choice. You can feel better or you can keep visiting this forum asking everybody why you have issues.

@dbossa - I’m not taking an AI, my urologist feels the same way about E2 and its benefits… But I have a quick question about estrogen and its role in gyno. Doesn’t elevated estrogen have a direct relationship to formation of gyno? My urologist told me if my chest/nipples get puffy, he’ll prescribe tamoxifen.

If estrogen isnt the culprit, what’s the cause of moobs?

Thanks for sharing the knowledge, I appreciate it.

Low test causes high BP