T Nation

Blood Work, $10,000 Prize Money


DHEA,s 492 (88.9-427) = 120% (HIGH)
DHEA 510 (31-701) = 71% (interesting)
Progesterone 1.1 (0.2-1.4) = 75% (interesting)
Androstenedione 81 (44-186) = 26% (LOWISH)
Serum Testosterone 294 (24-836) = 7% (LOWISH)
Free Testosterone 8.7 (8.7-25.1) = 0% (LOW)
Estrone 63 (12-72) = 85% (HIGHISH)
LH 6.2 (1.7-8.6) = 85% (HIGHISH)
FSH 5.9 (1.5-12.4) = 40%
SHBG 31.1 (14.5-48.4) = 48%
Cortisol 13 (2.3-19.4) = 62%
TSH 2.0 (0.45-4.5) = 38%

Other labs (liver, renal, etc) all perfect.

These results have been confirmed and they are always consistent on repeated blood tests (20 different tests, over several years).

50mg Toprol XL
50mcg Levoxyl (T4)
NO TRT at all. Last time I had a T injection was March 2007. So these lab results are good.

Hashimoto's thyroiditis (antibodies in remission thanks to 100mcg selenium)
PSVT (300 beats per minute heart rate, if I skip my toprol xl)
Previous orthostatic hypertension, possibly due to sudden and extreme changes after going off T.
Anxiety possibly due to TRT / amygdala / HPA axis / adrenal issues from going off T.
When I am on TRT, my DHEA and DHEA,s remain above 5000% above the normal reference range.

I've had every test known to man, CT's MRI's (head to toe), blood work, poison, mold tests, everything. Even obscure blood work like enzymes, adrenal antibodies, catecholemines, etc.


I've been a patient at the Mayo clinic and been to just about every endo in Arizona. I even consulted with Dr. Crisler a couple years ago. Nobody can figure out what the heck is wrong with me.

I'm at my whit's end. I thought it was just something like 3BHSD not converting andro to testosterone. But now I remember that my DHEA and DHEAs are all messed up.

I know that DHEA,s is converted to DHEA mainly by peripheral tissues and target organs. I know that andro is converted to testosterone by peripheral tissues (mainly by 3BHSD in the forehead and the upper back).

So I wonder, is something killing my enzymes are something? WTH!!!

Any thoughts?

$10,000 cash prize to the genius who solves this and puts me back together, without causing my orthostatic hypertention or HPA/anxiety problems to come back. Seriously.

I know I could just take T injections, Lexapro, fludrocortisone, cortisol, more metoprolol and all that crap... but my goal is to find and fix the problem. The fewer drugs, the better.


I use to think the exact same thing - what the freak is going on with my enzyme conversion between all of my hormones.

have you every checked out this site? http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/things-we-have-learned/

What supplements/vitamins are you taking now?

what symptoms (not conditions) are you experiencing now?

what were your test results for CHOL, FT3, RT3, D25OH, ferritin, FT3, FT4, Aldosterone, all of those obscure tests you mentioned? Different doctors have different definitions of what they consider ideal.

TSH is highish (<1 is ideal I believe)
Cortisol is lowish (15+ is ideal I believe for 8am blood draws)
Your estrogen is... well I don't know... what is your estradiol levels? Most treat based on Estradiol not Estrone.

  1. Yes, I checked the site before, details below.

  2. I'm taking 2g of vit C, 100mcg selenium, 30mg zinc, 2mg copper, 2tbsp Udo's oil for omega 3, 450mg magnesium citrate, 2000IU vit D3, 1000mcg B12 (no B6 because my levels are high), multivitamin, egg white protein. That's it.

  3. Current symptoms:

ZERO libido
Almost bald at 35
Fat stomach no matter how I diet
Muscle weakness and soreness
Can't maintain weight unless I eat junk
Pale skin, no matter how much I am in the sun. My face looks like a vampire got me. I look hypoglycemic (but I'm not).
Sunken eyes and boney face (due to fat distribution, catabolic stuff going on)

  1. Test results:

Cholesterol, Total 158 (100-199) = 58%
Reverse T3 test 1 396 HIGH (90-350) = 117%
Reverse T3 test 2 253 (90-350) = 62%
Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy 89 (32.0-100) = 89%
Ferritin, Serum 108 (22-322) = 28%
Transferrin 240 (200-370) = 82%
Iron, Serum 106 (40-155) = 57%
Triiodothyronine,Free,Serum (FT3) 3.3 (2.0-4.4) = 54%
T4, Free 1.56 (0.82-1.77) = 77%
Aldosterone 13.4 (1-16) = 82%

More results below.


I checked Estrone on the last test instead of E2 because I wanted to see what was just below testosterone in the pathway.

Estradiol from a month ago and other tests:

Estradiol (E2) 49 (0-53) = 92%
Prolactin 9.1 (2.1-17.7) = 44%
Renin, plasma 1.85 (0.15-2.33) = 17%
Growth Hormone, Serum 0 (0-6) = 0%
IGF-1 276 (115-307) = 83%
17-ketosteroids, Total 24hr Urine 12.8 (10-25) = 18%
17-alpha-Hydroxypergesterone 66 (5-160) = 39%
B12 822 (211-911) = 87%

I have plenty more where that came from and I can order more as needed. This is a real contest with real prize money so I'm serious :-/ I will get a spinal tap if needed.


Yes I'm aware of "Stop the thyroid madness" and other similar sites. I have their book but it nearly killed me. At one point my RT3 was high so a naturopathic doctor followed everything in the "Wilson Syndrome" protocol (for treating low T3, high RT3).. Armour, cortef, etc. and the treatment made me very sick: Super high blood pressure (again), nervousness, shaking, and even lower T numbers. So I got back on just plain old T4.

I can't have my TSH too far below 2 because then it causes my PSVT to start up. I think of the thyroid med and beta blocker as "fire and ice". Difficult to balance. Last time I had it at 0.3 I wound up having my heart restarted with adeonsine.

At least selenium got the thyroid antibodies down to zero (used to be sky high).

The thyroid must have something to do with all this but exactly what, I don't know.


Your E2 being that high will account for at least the Libido and Midsection Fat.


Your E2 being that high will account for at least the Libido and Midsection Fat.


isn't it just so much fun being your own medical mystery?

RT3 does seem to be a problem. I read about the Wilson Syndrome, but Wilson's treatment plan just seems weird to me.

what about the site thyroid-rt3.com? They have some good information/advice there.

have you ever tried just minor doses (10mg - 30mg) of T3 only medication?

What about Pregnenolone (oral, lipid matrix, or transdermal) - have you tried taking that to boost your hormones?

Your Estradiol is double what is thought of as the ideal male value of 22. Ever tried minor doses of Arimidex to lower that number down?

have you ever tried digestive enzymes and/or Betaine HCL? I've read some things on how those can help resolve gut issues which are causing vitamin/medication absorption problems.


It sounds like he doesn't want to do meds, which I respect. I'm in the same boat myself. I really don't want to be on TRT, and if I can get off it at some point I will. I hate that my body is not operating normally and nobody seems to be able to tell me what's wrong.

The doctors just keep wanting to treat the symptoms, which is fine as long as it gets me through until I find the root cause -- but nobody is even looking for a root cause except for me. Very frustrating! Sometimes it feels like there should be a new position in the medical field between Doctor & Nurse and Patient -- and it should be RESEARCHER!!! :slightly_smiling: I'd pay some good money to have someone do the research and come up with new theories.


  • Hakrjak


E2 is a bit high, but I keep telling myself that's ok with my telomeres / anti-aging. I'm an AI over responder. Arimidex (even a tiny dose) gave me problems. I broke my sternum doing a benchpress, because of Arimidex. Not sure on the details but my doc said it was the Arimidex.

Yes I checked out thyroid-rt3.com and just about all the others :slight_smile:

I guess I could use a little pregnenolone:

Pregnenolone 34 (20-150)
Pregnanediol HIGH 657 (32-501)
5-Pregnenetriol (5-PT) 627 (28-1062)

My pregnenolone is a little low considering the stress that I have.

Yes I've tried small doses of Cytomel (T3 only) and Armour, really screwed with me and not sure why.

I do take digestive enzymes and probiotics. Not Betaine HCL. I'm actually absorbing everything quite well, as indicated with some blood tests. When I take any vitamin or mineral, it shows on my serum like clockwork.



ok T3 screws with you.
you have high RT3.
your T is very low, but you have high Estradiol (and Arimidex screws with you)

Your cortisol (@ 13 assuming an 8am blood draw) looks pretty good, but I am wondering if your high E2 and T3 reaction could be because of too little cortisol (per your personal genetic makeup/requirements). Cortisol helps regulate t-metabolism and is needed to work in conjunction with T3 (not enough cortisol can cause T3 medication to screw with you).

have you ever tried just going on minor doses of Hydrocortisone by itself not with other things (ie. 5mg to starting and slowly increasing up to 20mg staggered daily) or 300mg Lipid Matrix Micronized Pregnenolone which should convert to cortisol assuming correct enzyme functioning?

any issues with excessive sweating upon exertion or slightly warm temperatures, any swelling ankles, or hurting knees?


Just curious as to which doc you saw at Mayo. You can pm me if you would rather not post


Substance: Dr X (I PM'ed you the name) was one dr at mayo who said I just had GAD (that ticked me off!!!). I can't remember the name of the other guy who just felt my nuts and laughed at me "ha ha, these are small". I was thinking, wth kind of "mayo" doctor is this? The doctor specialized in "adrenal biosynthetic disorders". Maybe he was a good dr but he just had too much fun joking about my TRT testicles.

I found out that the mayo clinic here in AZ and the one in FL are NOT as good as the original mayo clinic.

One evening after eating dinner I checked my BP and it was 210/120. I was having palpitations and thought my heart stopped at one point. My arms went numb, I had a headache and ringing in ears. So I went to the mayo ER. They kept me for 3 hours in the waiting area. Then they got hostile when they took me back. I was in the room for 10 minutes before they took one supine blood pressure reading and kicked me out.

I then drove myself to another ER (because I was still at 170/100 and HR around 120). I couldn't believe they discharged me after I told them how horrible I felt. Honestly they were too full that evening. Not enough beds.

Got to the new ER at 2:30AM and stayed until 6:30 AM.

They gave me several liters of fluids through an IV. Turned out that I was very dehydrated. After this, I felt better and my blood pressure went right down to 105/65, heart rate 65. I could barely walk in the ER at 2AM, but I could have ran while carrying a person on my back when I left at 6:30 AM, with no sleep.

Although I was tired, I hadn't felt that good in a long time. They told me to drink kid's Pedialyte and follow up. Then I went to a homeopathic doctor and he told me to consider fludrocortisone. I decided not to take it.

PureChance: You might be on to something. I cannot sweat at all! I just run out of breath and get dizzy, but I cannot break a sweat. I used to sweat like a pig.

My cortisol is usually around 18 in the AM then drops to normal levels in the afternoon. The cortisol result above was actually from around 11am. However 24 hour urine cortisol is LOW... but my GP says the urine test is worthless.

Yes I tried small doses of cortef, even just a half mg and once tried rubbing cortisol cream on my back (as per those thyroid sites), but each time I do this I get what they call a "thyroid dump".... high BP, HR, fever, diarrhea, etc.

To be fair, I will give the benefit of a doubt that perhaps this is all in my head. I always try not to be difficult about these things and I'm willing to experiment on myself.

[just want to add that if I have a stressful day like problems at work, then this same "thyroid dump" happens in the evening; I guess because my cortisol goes up. I'm guessing T4 is pooling up and then cortisol kicks in and converts too much T4 into T3 too quickly (which is normally being stored as RT3 in my body). I'm not sure if this is part of the other hormone problems or if I'm straying into a different topic]

By the way I'm not trying to pretend to be a doctor beacuse obviously I don't know what the heck is wrong with me. I'm just going by the stuff I've read online and in some books.

Any other ideas or should go to a med university? Not sure where to go.


OK THERE'S ONE LITTLE THING I INTENTINALLY LEFT OUT, because I'm scared to bring it up or think about it:

My morning ACTH level is usually 500% over the top range and my cortisol is just barely within the top range on the same test. It's like my body is saying "WAKE UP, MAKE MORE CORTISOL!" but my adrenals are like "oh man, it's too early! hit SNOOZE!".

Later in the day, my ACTH (plasma) goes back down to normal (but still high'ish) and cortisol goes down too. I know my adrenals are stressed but I'm scared to take cortisone after what happened to me.

But I don't think this is the reason why my testosterone is low because it was low even back when my ACTH wasn't elevated like this. More details on that later if needed. Also mainstream doctors don't believe in "adrenal fatigue" so that leaves me in the care of whacko doctors. Not good, considering my complicated history.


Pm me I work with ND, DO, MD's are complex medical issues dealing with hormone, immune system, and neurological conditions. I have dealt with people from mayoclinic, dr crilser, wright, and shippen,ect who have not found resolution.


Hey Bro , Ive been gone a few years , Iam back , with a new "name"..........Iam a med. pro. and would enjoy helping . Thanks!!! blessings.......hillbilly


Hey hillbilly. I'd appreciate the extra help. I'm working with HANS and maybe Dr. O but appreciate all the help I can get. Maybe we can assemble a think-tank like the Manhattan Project. Please PM me, thanks


Eventually my goals is to become part of a think tank. One time I was talking to Dr from cynergenics about a case of his client. The next thing I find out there where 40 dr's on teleconference. I had seen cases such as this before and they where stumped to why his shbg was so high. I examined his case told him that many people on armour or other t-3 based thyroid meds have elevated shbg. There was dead silence for a few seconds. I told the head dr where I referenced it in the data base. From now dealing with medical professionals, one needs to medically validate it. From filling out medical notes for patients we need to give medical validation for course of treatment while dealing with insurances. FYI dr's better have medical validation for blood testing due to the insurance clamping down denying coverage.


a couple of thoughts:

I wonder if no sweating (plus your extreme dehydration situation) could be due to too high Aldosterone. Have you ever tested for that? freq urination or easily break into sweat can equal too low Aldosterone - don't know if the reverse is true or not. I wonder if you are retaining too much salt and not enough potassium.

you ACTH results + reaction to cortef + high RT3 all seem to point to too little cortisol (possibly) have you every tried continuing your minute cortef dosage to see if you can get to the other side of the thyroid dump?

also I think you simply mispoke above about RT3 - but for others that find this thread later, I wanted to clarify.

T3 is not stored as RT3. If you have too much T4, impaired T4-T3 conversion, or other issues, then your body will reroute your T4 and create Reverse T3. RT3 blocks your Free T3 receptors and causes hypo symptoms (and downregulates your metabolism) even with sufficient FT3 floating around - what's worse is that the body gets rid of RT3 by converting it to T2, but uses the same ezyme needed for the T4-to-T3 change, and the RT3-to-T2 conversion takes precedent (so once you get enough RT3 floating around it becomes a self perpetuating cycle). Not enough enzyme for T4-T3 conversion = more RT3 = less enzyme for T4-T3 conversion


You are severely estrogen dominant. You are not programed to function like that. Dead libido is an expected result.

I do not see data for DHT. That is mission critical for libido.

You are highly catabolic, that leads to bone demineralization because the collagen structures are degraded. The fracture of you sternum may be a result.

You should see if you can tolerate tiny doses of anastrozole. You can dissolve in vodka and start with one drop and see what happens.

If you restored your T and kept E2 to recommended levels, then that is one less thing that is wrong. You should then loose fat on your belly, strengthen bone and would be expected to have a functional libido. Your brain will work in male mode.

Your higher gonadotrophins and low T point to primary hypogonadism.

High dose hCG or SERMs will increase stimulation of testicular LH receptors. You already know that your testes are responding poorly to that now. So I would not expect that hCG or SERMs could fix anything.


KSMan: DHT was in the normal range a couple years ago. I will recheck it this week.

I had a bone age xray and it came back normal so far.. I realize the situation is getting worse though.

In 2007 I tried anastrozole (arimidex) but when I switched docs, he said "stop taking that crap its made for women, probably why your sternum cracked".

Very interesting you think it could be primary / testicle failure. Because embarrassingly, my nuts hurt like hell and the left one... eh.. kind of doesn't look right. I'm too embarrassed to have a doc look at it after that prick laughed at me. And I tried to self-diagnose. Based on what I've read it sounds normal'ish and shouldn't be a cause for low T. But maybe I'm wrong. I was once in karate with a misplaced cup and had my nuts driven up to my brain... perhaps.

Good point on hCG and SERMs. thanks.


PureChance: Aldosterone was in the middle. That was one of the first things I started checking after the blood pressure ordeal. Have not checked it in the last few months though, so I might add it this week.

Could be right about cortisol but two things: 1. I don't want my adrenals to shrink down to nothing and have no chance of recovery? and 2. I don't want the hyperadrenergic orthostatic hypertension to come back. I'm just not sure if taking cortef is what might have caused it. But starting with very small amounts, like shaved off with a razor blade.. I could probably work up over several weeks/months perhaps.

I always get mixed up about RT3 and T3 sorry.


I think all men have been kicked in the balls a bunch in our lives. I think the male body is probably built to withstand this :slightly_smiling: -- I too have second guessed this though... Remembering being 7 years old and playing on the monkey bars with a little girl who loved to kick me in the balls daily at recess (They start young....)

Having pain in your balls seems pretty normal when you're on TRT. I haven't had it since I switched to Androgel, but when I was getting shots bi-weekly -- My balls hurt like hell too. The doc explained that it's a feedback system that basically picks up on having so much T in your body, and results with throbbing of the old nutsack.


  • Hakrjak