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Blood Test= High Estradiol/No Libido


#1

Hi Again. I posted last year about the 20grams a day AndroGel: http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1438453&pageNo=0
And got some great help here.

Well my Last Blood test (The one in Nov 2007 came back as not enough blood withdrawn!) came back this week.

Testosterone, Total: 794 241-827

Albumin: 4.6 3.6-5.1

SHBG: 15 8-48

Testosterone, Free: 277 34-194 (Very Happy with this!)

Testosterone, Free & WB: 582 84-402 (and this!)

This is always high? AST 59 10-35

FSH: 0.7 1.6-8.0
LH: .02 1.5-9.3

Now this is what I have been trying to get the doctor to check for a year and a half but he never ends up doing it! Thinks its not needed and this time he wasn't there and I told the nurse what to check for.

Estradiol 48 13-54

I have noticed for a long time major reduced libido, now everything still functions and the morning wood is there, I don't have very much desire. Also I have this last layer of belly fat that's been impossible to loose. I am convinced I need to reduce this E2/Estradiol.

I'm on the Ksman hCg protocol and the only thing that convinced my endocrinologist was the JCEM study on hCg.

I know I need something like KSman's post here

"Get some anastrozole, take 1mg per week and increase by what weight you have above 160 pounds. Test E2 after one month and do changes to dose as the results suggest. Aim for E2=17-20. "

But I know my doctor is going to instantly say no (already asked last year - he's never even prescribed hCg to a male before- I'm his test case), like with hCg until he see's a JCEM study where they recommend an aromatase inhibitor for someone using androgel and hCg.

I did a search there:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/search?&tyear=2008&tmonth=Mar&sortspec=relevance&andorexacttitleabs=and&hitsbrief=25&fmonth=Sep&sendit=Search&fyear=1965&fdatedef=1%20September%201965&hits=10&sortspecbrief=relevance&andorexacttitle=and&journalcode=endo&journalcode=jcem&andorexactfulltext=and&RESULTFORMAT=1&tdatedef=4%20March%202008&title=estradiol

but hell I don't understand those things enough to browse through 1200+, so I'm hoping someone might know a good study they could provide me a link to to help lower Estradiol.

Also is there a good generic version I could get a prescription for, I don't need a name brand and the generic are way cheaper co-pays.

FYI: I have been putting the androgel on 10-12 pumps in the morning and then about 10-12 pumps in the afternoon, for this blood test I put it on the afternoon before, but not the morning of the test.

Thanks in Advance


#2

You are not absorbing AG well. That is a huge amount of AG and your TT is not really that high. That amount of AG spread over a large amount of skin will create a lot of E2 in the fat layer under the skin. With injected T for the same TT number, your E2 could be lower. Likewise your DHT is probably high... a good thing from a libido point of view.

It is typical to have FT+WB at around 50%. So that is sort of normal.

Testing for LH and FSH is dumb, you are HPTA shutdown and those numbers should be near zero.. and they are. The lab results have no diagnostic value at all... waste of money. A small amount of your FSH number is weakly detecting your hCG.

Your hCG is contributing to your T levels as well as to your E levels.

E2=48 is a serious problem. You can get anastrozole on your own and then later tell your doctor how great you feel. Maybe he will then see the light. Many things that you can find to read will talk about T+AI as a given and are not research based. Research on how one feels is not hard numbers.

The objectives of HRT is hormone levels and balance. hCG replaces LH... simple enough. And AI is required to create a favourable E:T balance, independent of ones absolute T numbers. While lab statistical norms do go up to 53, the men in that upper range do not feel well and are not healthy, some have syndrome X and are diabetic or pre-diabetic. Your doctor needs to know that the lab statistical norms do not imply in any way that one is healthy or in a normal state of heath. This is where most doctors fail.

For your FT and WB numbers, you should be feeling a lot better than I expect you do now. Arimidex/anastrozole will probably make a huge differences. When my E2=37, TT=1025, my mood, energy, libido, outlook on life were all suffering. I had all the symptoms of hypogonadism while my T numbers were high. E2 can make things ugly.

Given the cost of Arimidex, many, even those with scripts, will obtain as a research chem.

Good move not applying AG before your lab work!

With E2 in the lower 20's, you will see progress loosing fat around your belly. This will happen reasonably fast at first, but there is slow improvement after that


#3

KSman always enjoy your input and thanks for the PM - I am looking into that info. All my Bloodwork is free and generics are only $10 month copay for me.

I was hoping someone might know of a specific research JCEM study that they might have used for their doctor. If I had some 'ammo' the doctor respects I think he would give me a script.


#4

I wonder if your doctor would pay attention to anything by Dr. John Crisler D.O. (allthingsmale.com)
Dr. Crisler has a lot of papers published about HRT/TRT and ancillaries to be used.


#5

"I wonder if your doctor would pay attention to anything by Dr. John Crisler D.O. (allthingsmale.com)
Dr. Crisler has a lot of papers published about HRT/TRT and ancillaries to be used. "

Thanks for the suggestions as Dr. John Crisler D.O. has lots of great info, but I gave his paper to my Endo in an attempt to get the hCg prescribed and my Endo thought he was a "Kook?" The only info he seems to respect are his 40+ years experience (But unfortuantly I doubt he has taken any recent classes in the last few decades so I'm in 1960's treatment here!) but at least he seems to accept those JCEM study's- I just have to bring as he doesn't stay current.

He called (Actually his nurse called and put me hold.. and then he came on and started flipping out about the 'High' Testosterone and that it may be damaging my liver because something else was high. I told him I put it on before I went in for the blood test and appoligized then I tried to bring up the estradiol and he was baffeled said it was normal. I made the mistake of saying a sentence or two about low libido and ideally it would be under 20 (not 48) and he just said to make an appointment and come in and talk...

Its much easier to just order some research chemicals and pay out of pocket than deal with all that. So long as he keeps up my AndroGel presciption and hCg I will just stick with this.

I felt really good about the blood test results like I finally figured out my dosage and once I add in the Anastrozole I think I will be set. I always suspected high estradiol but could never get doctor to do the blood test.

But really I don't feel like there is nothing wrong with FreeT a little above normal and don't see how a non-oral steroid could affect my liver...?

Guys who do like 500mg injectable T a week, what do you think there FreeT is like? Probably double mine.

LL


#6

I take exemestane in liquid form purchased from a research company. The pharmacy name for this is Aromasin. A study was done on this medication in The Journal of Endocrinology & Metabolism.

The name of the article is:

"Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males"

It was published in 2003. The doi: 10.1210/jc.2003-031279

go to the website and enter that in and it should come up.

http://jcem.endojournals.org


#7

The fact that a study was done to investigate the effects on young males, does not mean that it is works better or is more cost effective. The study was to determine its actions.

So lets compare:

60 ml anastrozole 1mg/ml $60
half life 36 hours

60 ml exemestane 25mg/ml $80
"The terminal half-life was 8.9 h"

Standard dose for anastrozole is 1mg/wk. 60ml will last 60 weeks.

Standard dose for exemestane is 25mg/day. 60ml will last 60 days.

One bottle of anastrozole will last 7 times longer than exemestane. Cost ratio: 7x80/60= 9.133.

So you can spend nearly 10 times more on exemestane and need to take it every day. Or use anastrozole and dose every other day.

The fact that "exemestane" has a "suicide" adjective is of no consequence. You can take 1mg per week or 25x7=175 mg/week. So what is more effective?

When you read studies, note items that are labeled single dose response. Such info is interesting from a research point of view, but has little to do with constant dosing.


#8

...I'm curious and I just wanted to clarify what I'm reading here. So you are actually taking 10-12 pumps of AndroGel two times per day. At 1.25g per metered dose/pump, that means you're using 12.5-15g per application. And that's being done twice per day, so 25-30g per day? At that rate a pump must only last you, what, three days at the very most?

Is you doctor really supporting this or is this just something that you're doing by yourself? I understand what you're saying at bodybuilders doing +500mg of test per week, but that's completely different than long-term TRT therapy is it not?!?..hebs

ps...just so you know, I'm not critizing your actions, I'm just trying to learn as much as I can here.


#9

I wasn't pushing exemestane on the OP. He can choose what he wants. I was simply answering his question about any resource from a medical journal showing AI's to lower estradiol. I gave him the only link that I know of. If a study was done using using anastrazole then terrific! Let the reader dig it out.

KSman, I've already done the math on anastrazole. That's great and wonderful if anastrazole works for you. I don't like having to pay this much for exemestane and I'm not using 25mgs a day either. I got off of exemestane and started on anastrazole and used it for six months following the protocol that you and others have laid out.

I did a blood test every month trying to get this right and all I got were bad side effects and wild fluctuations in estradiol levels ranging from <15 to 53! I posted these results on here for all to see and nobody could offer an explanation on what was going on or what to do about it.

So I went and saw one of the LEF genius doctors here where I live. He had no clue about HCG injections, didn't offer me injectable T so I could get off of the transdermals and suggested that I go back to exemestane because "anastrazole doesn't work for you."

Example? Here are my last two blood tests when I was using anastrazole: This was my sixth month.

12/09/07
10 drops EOD anastrazole
estradiol: <15 pg/mL

12/31/07
6 drops EOD anastrazole
estradiol: 53 pg/mL

Any suggestions? What would you do?


#10

"I take exemestane in liquid form purchased from a research company. The pharmacy name for this is Aromasin. A study was done on this medication in The Journal of Endocrinology & Metabolism."

Thanks for the study, I did ask for them. I gave up on my Endo for the AI, he would have to have one with test subjects on AndroGel & hCg to think it was relevent to me anyway.

Thanks to help on here I have already received 3 years worth and just started on 10 drops EOD Anastrozole from ChemOne Research. I hope they are trust worthy because I won't know for sure until my next Blood Test.


#11

Hi, yes this is something I am doing on my own. I referred to my first thread were the pharmacies I went to all gave me 4 boxes of 8 pumps(dispensers) instead of 2 boxes of 2, so I had a years worth double my prescription of 10grams daily stock piled. Well now the pharmecies seemed to figure out it was 2 months worth and charge me double co payment when I go and other one just gives right amount (I have 2 prescriptions at different pharmecies.) Anyway... I had a bunch Andro Gel so I put on 8-12 pumps 1.25grams each pump) twice a day depending on how hard my training was for that day.

Now that I have the AI maybe I will turn more of the AndroGel into T instead of E and get even higher T levels...?

The AndroGel seems to get absorb & raise T quickly 1-3 hours so I may just go to 6 pumps 3 times a day, hCg EOD and Anastrozole 10 drops EOD. Doctor only prescribed 10grams AndroGel.

Besides getting spoiled on the higher T levels does anyone think that would be dangerous longterm?

A good tip for any Andro Gel pump users is when the pump no longer squirts out gel, break/ManHandle/pull the top off and get another squirt and gel off that and then yank/pull the foil liner out of pump (Tricky at first, then simple after couple times) then rip/tear the liner open and peel apart and rub that on legs (I put on thighs/Calves/Arms/Scotum) or wherever you apply and get about 2 more last grams out. Bit of a hassel but otherwise you are wasting like 2-3 grams.

LL


#12

I have a question, what was the dosage and test results before 12/09/07? That is the most important factor in answering your question.
Please post.


#13

My prescribed dosage is 10 grams daily (8 Squirts/pumps) However, for the last 6 months I have always averaged about twice of that.

My test results were always below normal or low normal, but I would stop applying the gel a day or two before the test (which is why I assume it goes through my system pretty much in a day) Unfortunately my last test in 2007 came back as "Still Pending Results" apparently Quest Diadnostics said there wasn't enough blood- which is BS because the tubes were all full... Thats the second time in 2 years that has happened to me.

PS. For Sam's Club Frozen Farmed Salmon Filets eaters, I average 4-6 of these 4-5 oz filets a week for the last 2 years and some tuna here and there; I had my mercury tested finally and it came back back fine :slightly_smiling:

Mercury = below 5 ref range= below 10 mcg/L


#14

KNB, I assume you were asking me this question. Here it is:

11/01/07
Anastrazole 10 drops EOD
Estradiol: 20

I thought I hit the magic number with this, but then when I retested again in December it was going too low and I had side effects. I then reduced to 6 drops EOD. My results are posted above in an earlier thread.

In late January of this year I stopped using anastrazole. I decided that I was purposely bottom out and then retest after going almost 5 weeks without the use of an AI so I could get a baseline number. The results:

3/2/08
estradiol: 44

What did this show? My estradiol was high and I could feel it, but it also showed that it was down from 53 when I had tested in December when using a protocol of 6 drops EOD of anastrazole. How can my estradiol be higher when using anastrazole (53) when not using it (44)? That doesn't make any sense to me at all. Maybe you can see why I stopped using this and why I went back to exemestane. My T levels both total and free were also much higher when using exemestane compared to anastrazole. My T levels stayed the same whether or not I used anastrazole or not.


#15

Raw Power:
That makes no sense at all to me as your numbers are completely inconsistent.

On 11/1 with 10 drops EOD you were on your way down with a 20. Then on 12/9 with 10 drops you bottomed at <15 that still makes sense, but when you lowered you dosage to 6 EOD on 12/31 you shot back up to 53. That doesn't make sense at all. And on 3/2 with no adex you were only at 44.

Man, I have no freakin' idea what happened. I do think yours is a good example for the guys that adex isn't the answer. For most of us, it's a gift we can't do without, but for you it's a curse. You have found an answer with exemestane, this may be an appropriate answer for some of the others too.
Thanks again.


#16

"My T levels both total and free were also much higher when using exemestane compared to anastrazole."

Just for my own clarity, Is the boost in T when using an AI because The T no longer gets aromatized, allowing the T to stay for muscle healing & growth?

Or does your T just do more without having to compete with the negative effects of the E?

Is it kind of like the little boost from using hCg (say maybe an extra 100 Total T) with Andro Gel?

Also isn't the 10 drops the normal SOP for most regular guys around 150-200lbs? Would I maybe need more if doing double Andro Gel dose?


#17

LL,
The effects of using an AI so the T doesn't convert to E will raise total T numbers.
The more Free T you have, the more "work" the T is available to do . For me, the effects of HCG are not "little" in any way at all. After being on a 200mg/week dose of T-Cyp for 1-1/2 years plus, I had reached what I thought was "the best there was point", I then added adex, which made a little difference, but after adding the HCG, it started to feel like I was on large doses of T, always feeling a little "pumped" and more "attracted to the ladies" shall we say than before.
10 drops of adex EOD is an average dose for a guy in the 150-200 pound range. Needing more possibly depends on how much body fat you have. My doc wants his patients on 2mg/week for HRT purposes, and I have raised my dosage back to 2mg/week up from 1-1/2 week to see if my belly fat will be affected. I never had achy joints on 2mg/week before, so I'll see how it goes for the long term. If I start to "feel" different, I'll go back to 1-1/2 again.
I do know at 2mg/week I was <32 E2, but I don't have access to the exact number from the lab I use. I hope this is the answer you were looking for.

KNB


#18

You don't need Armidex, why not just go with ATD? ATD completely shuts down estrogen. It's proven and has a solid track record. It's also dirt cheap and legal to obtain.

The supplement market is saturated with AI's and all of them do what they say they do. Killing estrogen is easy. No male should be walking around with elevated E levels, period. Not when topical ATD costs $15/bottle on google.

Also, get a new doctor. Stop seeing idiots (yes, idiots) who are worried about your "dangerously high T levels".

One and a half years to get the most basic hormonal assessment done.

This is why most mainstream doctors need be put out to pasture.


#19

Hi All,

I'm new to the boards. This thread is very interesting to me because my last two blood tests have shown that I have high estradiol (50 & 42 respectively).

I'm 100% natural & my test is actually pretty high for someone around 30. I sit at about 650. So my focus here is to bring down my estradiol to a healthy range. What I'd like to do based on my research, is to take Exemestane (Aromasin) to control my E2.

I'm well aware that bringing estrogen levels too low can cause problems, so I want to use the lowest possible dose to get my E2 to around 20 or 25.

I'm thinking 5mg per day would do the trick, but if any of you think that's too low or too high please let me know along with your dosing suggestions (ex: 10mg twice per week, or 30 mg weekly taken twice).

If this works & I start feeling/looking better I'd like to stay on Aromasin barring there are no side effects that I'm unaware of.

Thanks!


#20

Duplicate post above... do not respond... he has his own thread on this.