T Nation

'Black hole' Machine Could Destroy Planet

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080405/black_hole_080405/20080405?hub=SciTech

Wow, straight out of a science fiction movie.

It’s such a load of bullshit. (This is not aimed against you).

Basically, the aim is to see what happens around the event horizons of black holes. Something that is vital for the further understanding of science. (See Hawking radiation etc).

By proceeding with proton proton collisions they hope to create miniature black holes with cross sections that are so minuscule they would literally disappear nearly as soon as they were created. (Gravitons kinda appear and disappear into higher dimensions.)

It may seem like this is crazy because in theory there is a tiny chance that a black hole could swallow our planet but not only have millions of calculations been done before to rule out any likelihood of this scenario happening but thousands of high energy particles hit our atmosphere (due to cosmic radiation) every minute and some create black holes of about the same size.

This has been going on for hundreds of millions of years which kind of rules out most of the danger of small black holes causing any problems.

In anycase, I live above this LHC collider so I’ll disappear before you.

=)

[quote]swissrugby67 wrote:
In anycase, I live above this LHC collider so I’ll disappear before you.

=)
[/quote]

Cool, let us know how it goes.

[quote]swissrugby67 wrote:
It’s such a load of bullshit. (This is not aimed against you).

Basically, the aim is to see what happens around the event horizons of black holes. Something that is vital for the further understanding of science. (See Hawking radiation etc).

By proceeding with proton proton collisions they hope to create miniature black holes with cross sections that are so minuscule they would literally disappear nearly as soon as they were created. (Gravitons kinda appear and disappear into higher dimensions.)

It may seem like this is crazy because in theory there is a tiny chance that a black hole could swallow our planet but not only have millions of calculations been done before to rule out any likelihood of this scenario happening but thousands of high energy particles hit our atmosphere (due to cosmic radiation) every minute and some create black holes of about the same size.

This has been going on for hundreds of millions of years which kind of rules out most of the danger of small black holes causing any problems.

In anycase, I live above this LHC collider so I’ll disappear before you.

=)

[/quote]

I was under the impression that it even being possible to create mini black holes was still highly debated. What they are really looking for is to create the higgs bonson, which will somehow help them put together some missing links of physics as we understand it. What hell, if it brings us closer to warp drive I’m all for it.

And depending on what side of the fence you are on(super-massive black holes/dark matter and energy), there are black holes every where. In my computer, in my brain, etc. Sounds like poppycock, but imo, dark matter and energy is a cop out. Basically, these physicists are saying that matter only accounts for about 17% of the known universe, so they basically make up this stuff called dark matter and energy. No one knows what it is, we just need it to be there for out physics to make sense. The LHC might help in this matter.

[quote]swissrugby67 wrote:
By proceeding with proton proton collisions they hope to create miniature black holes with cross sections that are so minuscule they would literally disappear nearly as soon as they were created.[/quote]

Exactly, and it looks like the guy suing never heard of Hawking Radiation.

[quote]swissrugby67 wrote:
It’s such a load of bullshit. (This is not aimed against you).

Basically, the aim is to see what happens around the event horizons of black holes. Something that is vital for the further understanding of science. (See Hawking radiation etc).

By proceeding with proton proton collisions they hope to create miniature black holes with cross sections that are so minuscule they would literally disappear nearly as soon as they were created. (Gravitons kinda appear and disappear into higher dimensions.)

It may seem like this is crazy because in theory there is a tiny chance that a black hole could swallow our planet but not only have millions of calculations been done before to rule out any likelihood of this scenario happening but thousands of high energy particles hit our atmosphere (due to cosmic radiation) every minute and some create black holes of about the same size.

This has been going on for hundreds of millions of years which kind of rules out most of the danger of small black holes causing any problems.

In anycase, I live above this LHC collider so I’ll disappear before you.

=)

[/quote]

Yeah, well, Dr. Octopus thought he could create a mini-sun and control it. We all know what happened in that exeriment.

DB

I don’t understand why the guy filed a U.S. suit against U.S. Agencies. Even if he wins, what exactly would that do to stop an experiment in Switzerland?

[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
I don’t understand why the guy filed a U.S. suit against U.S. Agencies. Even if he wins, what exactly would that do to stop an experiment in Switzerland?[/quote]

Well if it’s all U.S. agencies funding the experiment, and funding by these agencies are halted, how else would the project get paid for? Unless agencies from other countries picked up the tab after the lawsuit.

That’s my best guess though.

CERN stands for “European Center for Nuclear Research”.

Its member states are mainly European but certain other nations, like the USA have obtained observer status.

So no, the US Agencies wouldn’t be able to halt the proceedings based on a funding perspective.

From the NY Times:

[quote]
In an interview, Mr. Wagner said, �??I don�??t know if they�??re going to show up.�?? CERN would have to voluntarily submit to the court�??s jurisdiction, he said, adding that he and Mr. Sancho could have sued in France or Switzerland, but to save expenses they had added CERN to the docket here. He claimed that a restraining order on Fermilab and the Energy Department, which helps to supply and maintain the accelerator�??s massive superconducting magnets, would shut down the project anyway.

James Gillies, head of communications at CERN, said the laboratory as of yet had no comment on the suit. �??It�??s hard to see how a district court in Hawaii has jurisdiction over an intergovernmental organization in Europe,�?? Mr. Gillies said. [/quote]

I highly doubt CERN will stop their 8 billion project voluntarily and I know that energy is a substantial part of the project but I’m pretty sure that they’ll manage to get enough of it here.

We’ll see. Their first run will be in July.

Black holes really suck.

[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
swissrugby67 wrote:
It’s such a load of bullshit. (This is not aimed against you).

Basically, the aim is to see what happens around the event horizons of black holes. Something that is vital for the further understanding of science. (See Hawking radiation etc).

By proceeding with proton proton collisions they hope to create miniature black holes with cross sections that are so minuscule they would literally disappear nearly as soon as they were created. (Gravitons kinda appear and disappear into higher dimensions.)

It may seem like this is crazy because in theory there is a tiny chance that a black hole could swallow our planet but not only have millions of calculations been done before to rule out any likelihood of this scenario happening but thousands of high energy particles hit our atmosphere (due to cosmic radiation) every minute and some create black holes of about the same size.

This has been going on for hundreds of millions of years which kind of rules out most of the danger of small black holes causing any problems.

In anycase, I live above this LHC collider so I’ll disappear before you.

=)

Yeah, well, Dr. Octopus thought he could create a mini-sun and control it. We all know what happened in that exeriment.

DB[/quote]

HAHA! Now that was funny.

A couple of quick points of interest; hawking radiation is a THEORY and it has detractors; the experiment could form a strangelet as well as a black hole (the strangelet far more dangerous if charged other than they foresee). although the safety study conducted rules out a disaster scenario to a very high degree, no one has said either scenario is impossible…only very unlikely based on known science and theory…theory.

although the risk is probably off the charts to the low end, I see where the guy suing is coming from. most of this stuff is theory, and these guys are playing god.

About the lawsuit: guess who supplies CERN with the parts? A US company. If that company is found to be supplying CERN with parts to a device which is deemed to potentially cause mass destruction, the LHC will have to be disassembled and rebuilt using new parts.

Also, I’m all for them doing this. If anything goes wrong, we have SpiderMan. Wait a sec…

I listened to this guy (Wagner) on BBC Radio 4 the other week and basically he came across as a crackpot trying to make a name for himself by attacking a high-profile project.

Here is a nice article referencing the rebuttal by CERN:

http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2213027/doomsday-lawsuit-against

[quote]
"Cern insisted that no microscopic black holes produced inside the LHC could generate a strong enough gravitational force to pull in surrounding matter.

“If the LHC can produce microscopic black holes, cosmic rays of much higher energies would already have produced many more,” the statement added.

“Since the Earth is still here, there is no reason to believe that collisions inside the LHC are harmful.”[/quote]

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
these guys are playing god.[/quote]

It’s not playing if you can do it.

[quote]ExcessiveForce wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
these guys are playing god.

It’s not playing if you can do it.[/quote]

God doesn’t exist. Or does he? Oooooooh.

[quote]swissrugby67 wrote:
God doesn’t exist. Or does he? Oooooooh.
[/quote]

Swiss, you’re not allowed to talk until you get us more pictures of that ridiculously hot girl from the T-Vixen thread.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
A couple of quick points of interest; hawking radiation is a THEORY and it has detractors; the experiment could form a strangelet as well as a black hole (the strangelet far more dangerous if charged other than they foresee). although the safety study conducted rules out a disaster scenario to a very high degree, no one has said either scenario is impossible…only very unlikely based on known science and theory…theory.

although the risk is probably off the charts to the low end, I see where the guy suing is coming from. most of this stuff is theory, and these guys are playing god.[/quote]

By that token nearly everything in physics is theory. This is not an admission of weakness in the theories, but rather the fundamental honesty of science. A scientist cannot say “That cannot happen.” unless there is absolute proof that it cannot happen.

Absolute proof is hard to find. The next best thing is a series of mathematics that show the unlikelihood of the occurance. This is also why they won’t categorically rule out the Strangelet problem and black hole oblivion.

wait, is it gonna fry my johnson and the boys?

[quote]fireplug52 wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
A couple of quick points of interest; hawking radiation is a THEORY and it has detractors; the experiment could form a strangelet as well as a black hole (the strangelet far more dangerous if charged other than they foresee). although the safety study conducted rules out a disaster scenario to a very high degree, no one has said either scenario is impossible…only very unlikely based on known science and theory…theory.

although the risk is probably off the charts to the low end, I see where the guy suing is coming from. most of this stuff is theory, and these guys are playing god.

By that token nearly everything in physics is theory. This is not an admission of weakness in the theories, but rather the fundamental honesty of science. A scientist cannot say “That cannot happen.” unless there is absolute proof that it cannot happen.

Absolute proof is hard to find. The next best thing is a series of mathematics that show the unlikelihood of the occurance. This is also why they won’t categorically rule out the Strangelet problem and black hole oblivion.[/quote]

I was clarifying the topic, not looking for a debate on science. everything i stated is accurate. i don’t have a position on it either way. there is risk, but it is infintesimal. i believe i stated that in other words. so what is your point?

that said, no matter how small the risk, when the bad outcome happens to be the destruction of the world, it does give one pause. the chance of a bad outcome is only one side of the coine of risk analysis; the other side is cost. so this is not your average risk equation…or experiment for that matter.

by the way, similiar issues were on the table when they first tested nuclear bombs; the risk then was igniting our atmosphere.

at any rate, i’m not exaxctly worried, but you can’t help but to wonder whether these issues should be fully vetted with the public rather than a group of scientists and gov’t types deciding on our behalf. i for one want to know the issues and have a vote in something that may impact me or my family.