[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
1 on 1 is the best possible art for winning a fight.
[/quote]
Not even. Try taking a guy down who doesn’t want to be taken down when there’s no octagon blocking him in. It’s much more difficult than you think.
[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
1 on 1 is the best possible art for winning a fight.
[/quote]
Not even. Try taking a guy down who doesn’t want to be taken down when there’s no octagon blocking him in. It’s much more difficult than you think.
RE: BJJ
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
It isn’t. It’s horrendous for “self defense” but it’s marketed very, very well to people that don’t know better.[/quote]
I disagree with this statement as it stands, though I think I agree with the underlying idea.
If you wrote “As it is usually practiced and taught BJJ is horrendous for “self defense” but it’s marketed very, very well to people that don’t know better.” then I would agree 100%.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
1 on 1 is the best possible art for winning a fight.
[/quote]
Not even. Try taking a guy down who doesn’t want to be taken down when there’s no octagon blocking him in. It’s much more difficult than you think.[/quote]
yeah, i guess that wrestling thing is all fad.
[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
1 on 1 is the best possible art for winning a fight.
[/quote]
Not even. Try taking a guy down who doesn’t want to be taken down when there’s no octagon blocking him in. It’s much more difficult than you think.[/quote]
yeah, i guess that wrestling thing is all fad.[/quote]
Huh?
[quote]Robert A wrote:
RE: BJJ
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
It isn’t. It’s horrendous for “self defense” but it’s marketed very, very well to people that don’t know better.[/quote]
I disagree with this statement as it stands, though I think I agree with the underlying idea.
If you wrote “As it is usually practiced and taught BJJ is horrendous for “self defense” but it’s marketed very, very well to people that don’t know better.” then I would agree 100%.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
Well, what’s the difference?
To me, any art that relies on going to the ground and is OK with being on the bottom is inadequate.
Stand it up, then it’s called Judo. That art I can dig for self defense a bit more. BJJ, absolutely not.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]Robert A wrote:
RE: BJJ
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
It isn’t. It’s horrendous for “self defense” but it’s marketed very, very well to people that don’t know better.[/quote]
I disagree with this statement as it stands, though I think I agree with the underlying idea.
If you wrote “As it is usually practiced and taught BJJ is horrendous for “self defense” but it’s marketed very, very well to people that don’t know better.” then I would agree 100%.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
Well, what’s the difference?
To me, any art that relies on going to the ground and is OK with being on the bottom is inadequate.
Stand it up, then it’s called Judo. That art I can dig for self defense a bit more. BJJ, absolutely not. [/quote]
First, I have heard more than one judoka say BJJ is Basically Just Judo.
The difference between the statements is, at least in my mind, that the technique and body mechanics of BJJ are pretty damn good. It is the mindset/tactics of the people practicing it that fuck it up. I am right there with you with not being on the bottom. Thing is, the people I have run into that are best at getting out from underneath someone have spent a lot of time training BJJ/Judo/Ju-jitsu.
BJJ gives the tools to get out from the bottom, survive/stay in the fight long enough on the ground to get up, break free from someone holding you down, free arms and legs from someone trying to pin you/control you (Did you automatically add “so I can get to my knife and cut this SOB the fuck off me” in your head? Cause thats where my brain goes when applying this stuff.) Honestly these are fantastic skills to have. Not as a plan “A”, but as a lifeline if you need them.
Pulling guard in a streetfight falls somewhere between ill advised and suicidal. However using your legs/guard to minimize the beating you take and either create your own opportunity to get up, or to simply last long enough to be bailed out by others, may be the difference between continuing to walk the earth and leaving it entirely.
Atemi/strikes were always supposed to be a part of ju-jitsu. They are in the Kodokan Judo kata. The old BJJ Vale Tudo matches show a ton of punches and elbows being used. The fact that many BJJ teachers act like punching/striking is unimportant is fucking nuts, and goes against what was actually being done when the style was being “proved”.
I concede that trying to take everything to the floor is a damn bad idea in an uncontrolled violence/without a ref environment. I think we both know just how ugly it can get when you are on your back surrounded by people who intend you harm. I am going to state that the ground can be a slaughterhouse in the street. The corollary to that truth is that if you needed to do me in barehanded, it would probably get done within a grappling context. Just like a slaughterhouse the killing is going to get done on the floor. You might put me down with your left, but, if I still have life in me, getting past my legs and beating me to death will be greatly assisted if you are familiar with guard passing/BJJ.
Now, am I claiming that BJJ as it seems to be approached most commonly trains these things? Regretfully no. Most of the BJJ I see being trained is geared towards sparring/sport competition. The techniques are often never considered in this context. I think we both sort of flinch when we hear “I am taking BJJ for self defense.”, because we know that these things are not being looked at. Also, I hold no rank in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. If someone who teaches it wants to write and tell me that what I have written above is not and cannot be BJJ, than my apologies to all. I am pretty much a barbarian when it comes to this stuff.
Regards,
Robert A
I certainly agree with most, if not all, of your points, no doubt.
There are three points that I feel are never addressed among the “BJJ for street defense” crowd.
1 - The act of going to the ground may knock you out or severely hurt you in itself, regardless of who is doing the taking down, who is doing the falling, or whatever. Even moving around in the slightest on the street hurts like a motherfucker, especially when it’s the back of your head. The smallest tap to the head- forget full on smashing - can make you bleed and bust you up bad on concrete. It is NOTHING like the mats they train on.
2 - If you grapple with me, I’m going to make it bloody right away. I’m going to bite whatever comes near me, I’m going to claw at your eyes, I’m going to try and rip your Adam’s apple out (grabbing the front of the throat with a death grip is a trademark of mine), I’m going do do whatever I can.
In that Macyoung article I put up, there’s actually a part in there where he says that in a fight a guy got him in “mount” - so he literally bit the guys balls.
BJJ are fond of saying “We have dirty tricks too,” but in truth, most are not geared towards street defense, they’re geared towards competitions, like you said, and those rules have been beaten into them to the point where they will not even look for the dirty shit that someone like me will do right away.
3 - The action will be over before you know what happened to you. It is not a match, it is not Vale Tudo, it is not anything like an organized bout if you’re really in a self defense situation. The guy attacking you has stacked the deck in his favor, which means he’s probably got the drop on you and 99 percent of the time he’s got a weapon.
There will be no time for “Ground game” or setups or take downs or anything organized. You will be hit but you won’t know what happened, then you’ll realize that you got hit, then you’ll figure out that he didn’t hit you, you’ve got blood on your hands, you got stabbed, but you’re stabbed again, you’re falling, and whatever is done is done.
Real self defense situations aren’t streetfights, they’re fucking assassinations and much closer to combat than fighting. And the thing that will prevent this - being aware of your surroundings - isn’t taught in BJJ classes.
Hell, it ain’t taught in boxing classes. I’ve had to read a plethora of books, listen to podcasts, watch videos, and report on crimes first hand to realize that the first part of self defense - the avoidance and awareness part - is vastly more important than the skill part.
BJJ is crappy for streetfights. It’s awful and totally useless for “self defense.”
Irish,
Great post. I guess my only points of contention(and they are damn near a semantics) are:
1.) BJJ has been used plenty successfully in Brazil in “street fights”, of course these were basically one on one unsanctioned matches and have about as much relevence to me surviving a criminal assult as Kimbo Slice’s bare knuckle matches “prove” boxing.
2.) I am drawing a distinction between the potential of grappling/BJJ for self defense and the way I have seen it approached.
It should be perfectly practical, if the damn teachers would do what you did and look at the problem and figure out some decent solutions. Most of these techniques that have to be cross-trained/MMA’d back in were part of the arts originally. Unfortunately, that is not done. Really though I refuse to condemn the techniques/art for the hubris of its teachers.
Just because the “BJJ self defense” crew seems to assume either favorable conditions or dismiss things entirely and say no one would survive does not mean we have to. The answer of “drag him to the ground, and if more than one person attacks you are screwed anyway” is as unacceptable as simply saying “don’t wind up on the ground” and acting like that is sufficient.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]Robert A wrote:
Irish,
Great post. I guess my only points of contention(and they are damn near a semantics) are:
1.) BJJ has been used plenty successfully in Brazil in “street fights”, of course these were basically one on one unsanctioned matches and have about as much relevence to me surviving a criminal assult as Kimbo Slice’s bare knuckle matches “prove” boxing.
2.) I am drawing a distinction between the potential of grappling/BJJ for self defense and the way I have seen it approached.
It should be perfectly practical, if the damn teachers would do what you did and look at the problem and figure out some decent solutions. Most of these techniques that have to be cross-trained/MMA’d back in were part of the arts originally. Unfortunately, that is not done. Really though I refuse to condemn the techniques/art for the hubris of its teachers.
Just because the “BJJ self defense” crew seems to assume either favorable conditions or dismiss things entirely and say no one would survive does not mean we have to. The answer of “drag him to the ground, and if more than one person attacks you are screwed anyway” is as unacceptable as simply saying “don’t wind up on the ground” and acting like that is sufficient.
Regards,
Robert A
[/quote]
Absolutely agree.
Part of the reason why, as I said, traditional arts appeal to me is because they still contain those brutal elements that were truly combat oriented.
Part of the reason they don’t is that half the teachers that “teach” them don’t even recognize that that is, in fact, what the move is, and they teach is as part of a kata without even knowing it’s intent.
It’s actually kind of remarkable.
BJJ has become so sport oriented that it’s street usefulness has seriously deteriorated.
Kind of funny because if you told me to start a street fight with Helio Gracie (even at 90) I’d have told you to fuck yourself, because there was no way I was going near him… But I’ll rip the eyes out of the faces of one his grandkids purple belts.
We’re going interchangeably here with the terms “streetfight” and “self-defense” and we really shouldn’t be, but I know you know what I mean.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
1 on 1 is the best possible art for winning a fight.
[/quote]
Not even. Try taking a guy down who doesn’t want to be taken down when there’s no octagon blocking him in. It’s much more difficult than you think.[/quote]
Done it quite a few times actually.
I agree with you on the “BJJ is shit for self-defense” thing (to an extent anyway, I think it’s good to know and, depending on whether you’re a top player or not, ingrains good body mechanics that carries over to Judo, wrestling etc).
But 1-on-1. As in, no friends, no ref. This is beyond argument and has been for years. Not all BJJ guys shoot like Royce Gracie… though yeah that does muddy the waters a little. I should say submission grappling, not BJJ, since most of us at some point take lessons from folkstyle and Judo.
People like to say if they were to fight someone and it went to the ground they would do this or that as though it were a one way street. You might want to do this or that or try to this or that but there are no guarantees. You don’t know who the other person is. He could be just as tough, or tougher, than you. He might be “dirtier.” So before you bite him he may already be biting you.
Besides that, we are talking about self-defense. That is, you are being assaulted by a criminal. He could be a robber or a rapist or a killer. He is a predator that is looking for a victim, not someone who will give him a competitive fight. That woman who gets grabbed in a parking garage better know how to grapple. That woman who finds herself on her couch about to get date raped, better know how to grapple.
If you are a 150 pound man what do you do if you are attacked by a 250 pound man? Box him? Put Brock Lesnar and PBF in a prison cell and see who gets raped. That cop who is arresting someone who appeared compliant but once the cop put his hands on him started to put up a fight and go for the cop’s gun better be ready to grapple.
It’s easy to look at oneself and believe you could or would do whatever it is you think will work but what about everyone else? If you are 6 foot 5, 250 pounds, then you probably don’t have to really worry about some criminal attacking you empty handed. If you are in great shape, strong, and it’s obvious, then who is going to try and take your wallet at fistpoint?
It’s not about how BJJ is marketed but to whom it is marketed. Helio didn’t have Shaq or Lennox Lewis in mind. BJJ isn’t about fighting; it’s about surviving against someone who is bigger and stronger.
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
People like to say if they were to fight someone and it went to the ground they would do this or that as though it were a one way street. You might want to do this or that or try to this or that but there are no guarantees. You don’t know who the other person is. He could be just as tough, or tougher, than you. He might be “dirtier.” So before you bite him he may already be biting you.
[/quote]
It’s possible but unlikely if he’s practiced in what’s taught as BJJ here.
That form of dirty fighting has been beaten out of them by the rules of their sport, just as hitting below the belt is not going to be first instinct for all but the dirtiest of boxers.
In that way, the sporting aspect actually hurts the street defense aspect.
I want to live in your world where apparently, 99 percent of criminal attacks don’t involve a weapon.
Hate to tell you, but the amount of crimes that occur empty handed, especially against men, are going to be pretty low.
And the last thing you want for that is BJJ, which brings your body in close and your belt in closer to your opponent. You are confusing defensive tactics and weapon retention with a sport. It is not.
And that line about Mayweather and Lesnar in a jail cell makes me think that you’re a 15 year old UFC fanboy, but I’ll suspend belief for a moment.
Nobody EVER tries to take your wallet at “fistpoint.” There’s either more than one or they have a weapon or they’re just going to sucker punch you if they have to - no fucking criminal is going to approach you empty handed and give you fair warning that he’s going to rob you.
[quote]
It’s not about how BJJ is marketed but to whom it is marketed. Helio didn’t have Shaq or Lennox Lewis in mind. BJJ isn’t about fighting; it’s about surviving against someone who is bigger and stronger. [/quote]
It’s about sport. That’s it.
I know you like to come on the board every couple years and defend BJJ for the vicious street fighting self-defense art that you think it is, but every time, it simply doesn’t work.
No one in what you might call the self-defense community ever advises going to the ground in any conditions. You need to know some stuff for the ground, but only as an absolute last resort in case things go wrong.
And it’s TOTALLY about marketing. You know that piece about “99 percent of all fights go to the ground?”
Yea, made up by the Gracies for marketing. Nothing more. Get over it bud.
And by the way, I’m not even getting into the real aspects that make up “self defense,” which is awareness and avoidance and recognizing trouble before it happens - which they never teach you in a BJJ class.
What I’m trying to say is that the tactics that BJJ employs for self defense are shitty, but knowing them could help you in some situations, even though they’re situations you don’t want to be in where everything probably got totally FUBAR’d for you to end up there.
But there’s no long term strategy employed at all, and that’s where it’s fault is. I’ve admitted that it’s a fault in my own sport, and left gaps that I had to fill on my own. It just is what it is.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
And by the way, I’m not even getting into the real aspects that make up “self defense,” which is awareness and avoidance and recognizing trouble before it happens - which they never teach you in a BJJ class.[/quote]
This is not true at all. It’s obvious you have a grudge against BJJ because it shattered the myth that boxers were the baddest men around. Tyson was never the baddest man on the planet. I know you like to think of yourself as some expert but who are you? Just some white guy from Jersey who got into fights with drunken frat boys in some suburban bar. I don’t know about Helio’s grandkids’ purple belts but I do know that his grandkids would beat you in a very casual manner. But then again what do they know about the real world and violence. That’s why the US Special Forces has you teaching them, right? That’s why the SWAT team from my state’s capital trained with you instead of at my BJJ school, right? That’s why, when an inner city cop said the self-defense training he received saved his life, he was talking about what you taught him, right?
Seriously, calm down. Relax. You bring up good points and pose good questions but you are not some all knowing oracle. Sometimes you are right but sometimes there is more than one right answer. You just get too dogmatic to the point that you can’t see that other points are valid. You really have an exaggerated sense of self to preach on here about what is real and what isn’t and criticize people like the Gracies when, again, who are you? Why should someone here take your word as gospel over say, Rickson Gracie? Over Ricardo De La Riva? Over Pedro Sauer? Over Roy Harris? You have people who tested themselves in brutal environments against trained opponents and yet you, who got into some bar fights against drunks and losers, somehow know more? Typical Jersey loud mouth.
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
And by the way, I’m not even getting into the real aspects that make up “self defense,” which is awareness and avoidance and recognizing trouble before it happens - which they never teach you in a BJJ class.[/quote]
This is not true at all. It’s obvious you have a grudge against BJJ because it shattered the myth that boxers were the baddest men around. Tyson was never the baddest man on the planet. I know you like to think of yourself as some expert but who are you? Just some white guy from Jersey who got into fights with drunken frat boys in some suburban bar. I don’t know about Helio’s grandkids’ purple belts but I do know that his grandkids would beat you in a very casual manner. But then again what do they know about the real world and violence. That’s why the US Special Forces has you teaching them, right? That’s why the SWAT team from my state’s capital trained with you instead of at my BJJ school, right? That’s why, when an inner city cop said the self-defense training he received saved his life, he was talking about what you taught him, right?
Seriously, calm down. Relax. You bring up good points and pose good questions but you are not some all knowing oracle. Sometimes you are right but sometimes there is more than one right answer. You just get too dogmatic to the point that you can’t see that other points are valid. You really have an exaggerated sense of self to preach on here about what is real and what isn’t and criticize people like the Gracies when, again, who are you? Why should someone here take your word as gospel over say, Rickson Gracie? Over Ricardo De La Riva? Over Pedro Sauer? Over Roy Harris? You have people who tested themselves in brutal environments against trained opponents and yet you, who got into some bar fights against drunks and losers, somehow know more? Typical Jersey loud mouth. [/quote]
I don’t care at all about any myth about anyone being the baddest. It has absolutely no bearing on my life.
What I don’t like and don’t respect is a family full of people who are taking their art, which is superb for sports, and marketing it as some super killer commando bullshit.
If you like taking their Brazilian nuts in your mouth and paying your dues so your instructor can put a “Gracie Jiu Jitsu” sign in his front window and you can get a visit every six months from one of the Gracie’s cousin’s aunt’s sister’s best friend’s rolling partner, feel free. I know exactly how their business model works.
US Special Forces? C’mon. Every asshole claims that they teach the special forces. And while they do actually teach BJJ in the army, they do it more so that bored soldiers don’t kill each other when they get into it with each other. This stuff is not a new concept. And, fortunately, they’re beginning to move away from that as it is.
You can keep up the personal attacks, but, just like when you came on this board a couple years ago to proclaim that art’s superiority, you’re simply still wrong. Now go pay your dues, I think Rickson wants a new yacht…
Going to fall back on Macyoung again, as what he’s written on the subject says this all far better than I could, and outlines the mistakes made by people thinking that grappling is adequate.
people, chill out!
the baddest man on the planet looks like a drunken bread-baker, he instantly avoids your threat-radar and steal all your food without you noticing.
Let’s see. A HW boxer like Klitschko asks PBF to step outside and fight. PBF either refuses or goes outside and gets his ass kicked. If PBF has no choice but to fight, he gets beaten easily and quickly.
YOU are in the same position and the results are the same if you rely on your great striking abilities.
Royce Gracie is in the same position, what happens? If he chooses to fight or fights because he has no choice, he has a much greater chance at not only not getting beaten to death but maybe even winning.
So whose advice on fighting should someone take more seriously? Yours, which depends on being physically superior to the attacker (and we all know how people tend to start fights with those who are bigger and stronger) or should we listen to someone whose art doesn’t require you to be physically superior?
You can throw out all sorts of other variables like multiple opponents but if you can’t win one on one then I doubt you will have a better chance when the numbers are against you.
You do bring up good points, as do others here, when the talk revolves around the different variables that can come into play as well as the concept of awareness. I can only speak for myself and explain why I do what I do and if that argument answers the question for someone else who might be in a similar state as I then that’s all I can expect to do. What I mean is this: I am not a big guy. I am shorter than average. I do lift weights and am thus heavy for my height but I am not built to box and most certainly I would not want to get into a fist fight with someone bigger and taller (which is a good number of people). I do not train to protect myself against smaller men because the majority of men are not smaller. I just don’t worry about someone who is 5 feet tall and 100 pounds kicking my ass.
In my situation if BJJ won’t work or is not the best option in a given circumstance then the only other option is probably running away or grabbing a weapon. the problem is that people ask the question: do you want to go to the ground if…? Most of the time that question can be substituted with: do you want to fight period, if…? If I had to fight someone bigger and going to the ground is not a good idea because he has friends around then I get my ass kicked standing and if, by chance, I get the better of him standing then his friends will probably jump in regardless so the result is the same.
Having said that, I do agree that BJJ is losing its “real” aspect. It’s not just because of sport BJJ but because of mma and in fact, I would argue that mma is the bigger reason. In some schools, unfortunately, mma takes the place of self-defense. The old school Vale Tudo techniques of BJJ just don’t fit in even though they are brutal, effective and actually relatively simple. However, this doesn’t mean that the core concept of BJJ, that a smaller person has a better chance at survival, and even coming out on top, if he/she relies on grappling and/or ground fighting rather than striking is wrong. It’s a question of when to use that option. Royce Gracie doesn’t beat Tyson standing. So if the ground is not a viable option then it’s either avoid fighting or accept getting beaten up. And if your hopes hinge on getting that groin shot in then why bother training anything other than that?
So if you aren’t a midget (like me), a skinny weakling or a woman and you are pretty good with your hands then maybe that will be good enough for you but if you are not someone who has the best physical attributes for standing and striking relative to your opponent, and with the types I mentioned that means pretty much every opponent, then you need to use what will give you a chance at surviving and winning.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Going to fall back on Macyoung again, as what he’s written on the subject says this all far better than I could, and outlines the mistakes made by people thinking that grappling is adequate.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/grappling.html[/quote]
The funny thing about that article is that he basically says that the conditions under which you would not want to grapple are conditions under which you don’t want to fight, period.
So if grappling is not a good option then fighting is not a good option. He also mentions how after Royce left the UFC it was dominated by guys like Shamrock and Severn. Hmmmmmm…two grapplers. I don’t see how that proved any point about grappling’s ineffectiveness.
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Let’s see. A HW boxer like Klitschko asks PBF to step outside and fight. PBF either refuses or goes outside and gets his ass kicked. If PBF has no choice but to fight, he gets beaten easily and quickly.
YOU are in the same position and the results are the same if you rely on your great striking abilities.
Royce Gracie is in the same position, what happens? If he chooses to fight or fights because he has no choice, he has a much greater chance at not only not getting beaten to death but maybe even winning.
So whose advice on fighting should someone take more seriously? Yours, which depends on being physically superior to the attacker (and we all know how people tend to start fights with those who are bigger and stronger) or should we listen to someone whose art doesn’t require you to be physically superior?
[/quote]
Gets asked to step outside and fight? What world do you live in that people get asked to step outside and fight one on one with honorable rules and all that?
Floyd Mayweather Sr. was a great boxer. You know what ended his boxing career? A shotgun blast to the leg. That’s the difference between “street” and “ring.”
There is no meeting in the middle, no “Let’s go outside and fight John Wayne style, one on one.” That shit is made up in movies and marketing.
The dynamic changes completely. If there’s five guys against me, I’m using a knife. Fuck it, that’s reason to bring lethal force to bear, because I’m fearing for my life.
Trouble often comes in pairs, or in more than pairs.
If you’re not fighting in the ring, you’re fighting in the street, or you’re in a real self defense situation. Immediately, these things mean 90 percent of what goes on in the ring are out the window, especially if you’re a grappler.
The reason I like boxing is because it relies on keeping your feet, being mobile, and slipping and ducking instead of absorbing punishment (at least the style I fight with). These things can translate to the street and give me plenty of opportunities to book it before the cops come, and they leave me less open to getting a boot to the head.
[quote]
You do bring up good points, as do others here, when the talk revolves around the different variables that can come into play as well as the concept of awareness. I can only speak for myself and explain why I do what I do and if that argument answers the question for someone else who might be in a similar state as I then that’s all I can expect to do. What I mean is this: I am not a big guy. I am shorter than average. I do lift weights and am thus heavy for my height but I am not built to box and most certainly I would not want to get into a fist fight with someone bigger and taller (which is a good number of people). I do not train to protect myself against smaller men because the majority of men are not smaller. I just don’t worry about someone who is 5 feet tall and 100 pounds kicking my ass.
In my situation if BJJ won’t work or is not the best option in a given circumstance then the only other option is probably running away or grabbing a weapon. the problem is that people ask the question: do you want to go to the ground if…? Most of the time that question can be substituted with: do you want to fight period, if…? If I had to fight someone bigger and going to the ground is not a good idea because he has friends around then I get my ass kicked standing and if, by chance, I get the better of him standing then his friends will probably jump in regardless so the result is the same.
Having said that, I do agree that BJJ is losing its “real” aspect. It’s not just because of sport BJJ but because of mma and in fact, I would argue that mma is the bigger reason. In some schools, unfortunately, mma takes the place of self-defense. The old school Vale Tudo techniques of BJJ just don’t fit in even though they are brutal, effective and actually relatively simple. However, this doesn’t mean that the core concept of BJJ, that a smaller person has a better chance at survival, and even coming out on top, if he/she relies on grappling and/or ground fighting rather than striking is wrong. It’s a question of when to use that option. Royce Gracie doesn’t beat Tyson standing. So if the ground is not a viable option then it’s either avoid fighting or accept getting beaten up. And if your hopes hinge on getting that groin shot in then why bother training anything other than that?
So if you aren’t a midget (like me), a skinny weakling or a woman and you are pretty good with your hands then maybe that will be good enough for you but if you are not someone who has the best physical attributes for standing and striking relative to your opponent, and with the types I mentioned that means pretty much every opponent, then you need to use what will give you a chance at surviving and winning. [/quote]
Well see, you’re mixing things up here. Are we talking street fighting or are we talking self defense? Because they’re not the same.
Like I said, I don’t say that you don’t need to know some grappling, or some floorfighting, but relying on that grappling system as the base of your self-defense training is just a big mistake. The Vale Tudo style may be better suited towards streetfighting, I agree, but is it good for self defense? No, because self-defense encompasses way more than physical skills, and if the person does not seek out that knowledge they’re not going to get it.
Again, I point to myself and boxing. It is the style I’m most most comfortable with physically but the rest of the shit that is actually self defense are things I acquired over the years through either experience or reading.
And the reason I list so many variable is because in real life, that’s all there is are fuckin variables. It’s never a clean situation like it is in the ring or the octagon, and every single variable can fuck you.
Seriously, like I said before, even the process of going to the ground on cement can seriously injure or, at the very least, hurt you, even if you know how to fall.
So how good is a system when even the process of getting into position to use it effectively can hurt, knock out, or kill you?
Like I said, it’s great in the ring, but it suffers in the street and it’s wholly inadequate for self defense. The ground is just not where you want to be anywhere outside of the ring.
Again, read that damn link, he outlines concerns much more clearly than I do.