Biofuel and Food-Price Inflation

[quote]Wimpy wrote:
skaz05 wrote:
Even Jim Cramer says that these ethanol shenanigans are only about money and votes, and not about energy like everyone believes.

This “go green” shit really pisses me off.

Most people in the know don’t consider ethanol from commercial agriculture to be green in the first place. First there’s the energy it takes to grow the plant then there’s the energy it takes to process it into ethanol. Overall it takes more energy to produce the ethanol than we get out of burning it.

There are good reasons and better way to “go green” though. [/quote]

Saying that there is a negative energy balance is a slight overstatement. While there are certain circumstances where this is the case, in general the ratio is more like 1.4:1, ie there is a net energy gain of around 40 percent.

I do agree that the subsidies are a joke though.

Well, as long as everyone else is pushing his particular agenda, might as well say my tuppence worth.

This just shows what us paleolithic types have known all along: that a steady diet of grain is bad for your health, bad for livestock, bad for the economy, bad for cars, and bad for the planet.

Eventually all the skinny-fat grain-eaters will die off, leaving a beautifully lush green planet chock-full of large grass-fed mammals, and a comparative few lean, strong men and women who hunt them for their tasty meat.

[quote]Wimpy wrote:

Excerpt:

“All told, he believes that the cumulative energy consumed in corn farming and ethanol production is six times greater than what the end product provides your car engine in terms of power.” [/quote]

Look, I understand that ethanol is one of the worst possible solutions, but there’s no way I’ll believe any of that crap.

Use some common sense!

[quote]streamline wrote:
I don’t really mind that the US government brain washes it’s citizens. I do really hate it when they stick their f’n faces in the business of other countries. Advising them not to harvest HEMP. [/quote]

That’s your problem???

The US government “stick their f’n” bombs and bullets in people’s asses to liberate them - sometimes from democratically elected regimes.

If they’re just “advising” people, I say advise away!

[quote]lixy wrote:
streamline wrote:
I don’t really mind that the US government brain washes it’s citizens. I do really hate it when they stick their f’n faces in the business of other countries. Advising them not to harvest HEMP.

That’s your problem???

The US government “stick their f’n” bombs and bullets in people’s asses to liberate them - sometimes from democratically elected regimes.

If they’re just “advising” people, I say advise away![/quote]

Fuck off Lixy - go learn about the subject at hand, and try to stay on topic.

I don’t know where the poster who said that there is a 40% gain in energy got his information, but I think that is a gross overstatement. The BEST I have heard is like 20% - but that is if it rains at just the right time, and no need to spray.

Farm diesel is running about 3.75 per gallon. Irrigation costs are going through the roof. Whether you use nat gas, electricity, or diesel to run your pumps - it is 3X higher to do irrigate now than it was 5 years ago.

I am a staunch supporter of farming - but even I can see the stupidity of this effort.

Brazil is very successful making Ehtanol with sugar cane. Switchgrass is said to be even more efficient that cane.

There are ways to do this, but until you cut the greed of the lobbies and politicians out of the picture, you will never find efficiency.

Hello $8 milk and and $5 bread.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Wimpy wrote:

Excerpt:

“All told, he believes that the cumulative energy consumed in corn farming and ethanol production is six times greater than what the end product provides your car engine in terms of power.”

Look, I understand that ethanol is one of the worst possible solutions, but there’s no way I’ll believe any of that crap.

Use some common sense![/quote]

Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.

Albert Einstein

[quote]orion wrote:
lixy wrote:
Wimpy wrote:

Excerpt:

“All told, he believes that the cumulative energy consumed in corn farming and ethanol production is six times greater than what the end product provides your car engine in terms of power.”

Look, I understand that ethanol is one of the worst possible solutions, but there’s no way I’ll believe any of that crap.

Use some common sense!

Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.

Albert Einstein[/quote]

Isn’t that the guy who couldn’t remember his own phone number?

[quote]rainjack wrote:

[/quote]

I didn’t hide the fact that I know nothing about all this, but I’m glad to see somebody else rejecting the negative balance theory.

Doing a little research, it turns out that the energy balance varies greatly between different countries. The US seems to doing the worse. The 20% figure is probably quite accurate.

So, yeah, anyone supporting ethanol as an energy source in the US is a dingus of the highest order. Anyone can see S-C-A-M associated with it.

[quote]lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:

I didn’t hide the fact that I know nothing about all this, but I’m glad to see somebody else rejecting the negative balance theory.

Doing a little research, it turns out that the energy balance varies greatly between different countries. The US seems to doing the worse. The 20% figure is probably quite accurate.

So, yeah, anyone supporting ethanol as an energy source in the US is a dingus of the highest order. Anyone can see S-C-A-M associated with it.[/quote]

Please - wiki is not a source for this. But at least you are making an attempt.

20% - in my part of the world is only found when the growing season is perfect (about 1 out of every 6 years). I would say that it is probably closer to 5% when it doesn’t rain, and you have a bug problem. And if you do get a perfect season, you are still at the mercy of the weather - a hail storm can wipe out an entire crop in seconds. That happened just this week.

[quote]lixy wrote:
streamline wrote:
I don’t really mind that the US government brain washes it’s citizens. I do really hate it when they stick their f’n faces in the business of other countries. Advising them not to harvest HEMP.

That’s your problem???

The US government “stick their f’n” bombs and bullets in people’s asses to liberate them - sometimes from democratically elected regimes.

If they’re just “advising” people, I say advise away![/quote]

First they advise. It’s when you don’t listen they stick the bullet up your ass.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Wimpy wrote:
Overall it takes more energy to produce the ethanol than we get out of burning it.

I know nothing about the process, but this claim defies common sense. Why would we continue doing it if the expenditure outweighs the benefits we reap?

You wouldn’t happen to be factoring in the sun’s energy, now would you?[/quote]

We produce ~ 1.3 btu for every btu we burn manufacturing corn based ethanol based on the most accepted statistics. It is hardly efficient but it is a positive energy balance.

The best numbers I have seen claim a 1.7:1 ratio and there are studies that claim it is a negative energy balance.

It is almost impossible to know the truth but it is nowhere near viable without government intervention forcing it on us.

[quote]streamline wrote:
The problem is the stupid American war on drugs. They have the whole f’n country believing HEMP is a drug and not the answer to their problem. Any retard that comes up with the idea to use a food source for fuel should be taken out back and put out of our misery.

I don’t really mind that the US government brain washes it’s citizens. I do really hate it when they stick their f’n faces in the business of other countries. Advising them not to harvest HEMP.

Funny thing is they have you all believing you live in a free country. Free to do as you’re told that is. Well there is no cure for stupid!! [/quote]

Hemp is not a cure for the energy problem.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Eventually all the skinny-fat grain-eaters will die off, leaving a beautifully lush green planet chock-full of large grass-fed mammals, and a comparative few lean, strong men and women who hunt them for their tasty meat.[/quote]

My good man, you are a poet.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
streamline wrote:
The problem is the stupid American war on drugs. They have the whole f’n country believing HEMP is a drug and not the answer to their problem. Any retard that comes up with the idea to use a food source for fuel should be taken out back and put out of our misery.

I don’t really mind that the US government brain washes it’s citizens. I do really hate it when they stick their f’n faces in the business of other countries. Advising them not to harvest HEMP.

Funny thing is they have you all believing you live in a free country. Free to do as you’re told that is. Well there is no cure for stupid!!

Hemp is not a cure for the energy problem.[/quote]

It’s a much better cure than a food source. If studies were done about the ability of Hemp as a fuel source your statement could be disproved.

[quote]streamline wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
streamline wrote:
The problem is the stupid American war on drugs. They have the whole f’n country believing HEMP is a drug and not the answer to their problem. Any retard that comes up with the idea to use a food source for fuel should be taken out back and put out of our misery.

I don’t really mind that the US government brain washes it’s citizens. I do really hate it when they stick their f’n faces in the business of other countries. Advising them not to harvest HEMP.

Funny thing is they have you all believing you live in a free country. Free to do as you’re told that is. Well there is no cure for stupid!!

Hemp is not a cure for the energy problem.

It’s a much better cure than a food source. If studies were done about the ability of Hemp as a fuel source your statement could be disproved.[/quote]

If I could pull money out of my ass, I wouldn’t need a job.

Switchgrass is as efficient as hemp wrt ethanol production, and there is little to no controversy over using switchgrass.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
streamline wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
streamline wrote:
The problem is the stupid American war on drugs. They have the whole f’n country believing HEMP is a drug and not the answer to their problem. Any retard that comes up with the idea to use a food source for fuel should be taken out back and put out of our misery.

I don’t really mind that the US government brain washes it’s citizens. I do really hate it when they stick their f’n faces in the business of other countries. Advising them not to harvest HEMP.

Funny thing is they have you all believing you live in a free country. Free to do as you’re told that is. Well there is no cure for stupid!!

Hemp is not a cure for the energy problem.

It’s a much better cure than a food source. If studies were done about the ability of Hemp as a fuel source your statement could be disproved.

If I could pull money out of my ass, I wouldn’t need a job.

Switchgrass is as efficient as hemp wrt ethanol production, and there is little to no controversy over using switchgrass.

[/quote]

Then why are they using food sources instead. Like I said, there is no cure for stupid.

[quote]streamline wrote:
Then why are they using food sources instead. Like I said, there is no cure for stupid.[/quote]

It’s called lobbying.

[quote]streamline wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
streamline wrote:
The problem is the stupid American war on drugs. They have the whole f’n country believing HEMP is a drug and not the answer to their problem. Any retard that comes up with the idea to use a food source for fuel should be taken out back and put out of our misery.

I don’t really mind that the US government brain washes it’s citizens. I do really hate it when they stick their f’n faces in the business of other countries. Advising them not to harvest HEMP.

Funny thing is they have you all believing you live in a free country. Free to do as you’re told that is. Well there is no cure for stupid!!

Hemp is not a cure for the energy problem.

It’s a much better cure than a food source. If studies were done about the ability of Hemp as a fuel source your statement could be disproved.[/quote]

But more than likely it would be upheld.

First there is a positive energy balance. This wasn’t originally true, but now is.

Second, biodiesel is much more efficient.

I do believe the problem is only using the corn instead of the whole stock. (Which they can do.) Actually they could still use the corn for food, and simply use the waste material (lot of it) for the ethanol, along with switch grass, and other farming and forest waste material. At that point it really doesn’t matter what the conversion is because all this material already exists.

Now as far as food prices go, only part of it is really a result of ethanol production. Yes it has a factor, but the price of oil is the bigger factor. It underlies the price of everything.

It costs farmers more to run their tractors to create the food, then it costs more to move the food around. Not to mention cost more to get everything involved (such as cans) to any production plant.

I am not opposed to ethanol, but I am opposed to the outrageous subsidies that mask it’s true cost. (And increasing the cost elsewhere.)

[quote]The Mage wrote:
First there is a positive energy balance. This wasn’t originally true, but now is. [/quote]

Sorry to burst your bubble - but it is positive only under perfect conditions.

Not really part of the ehtanol discussion, but would be a novel idea to use in farm equipment - if the damn farmers didn’t live so far from town.

[quote]I do believe the problem is only using the corn instead of the whole stock. (Which they can do.) Actually they could still use the corn for food, and simply use the waste material (lot of it) for the ethanol, along with switch grass, and other farming and forest waste material. At that point it really doesn’t matter what the conversion is because all this material already exists.
[/quote]

I agree, and think this should have been the primary approach from the outset - not artificially driving up the prices.

[quote]Now as far as food prices go, only part of it is really a result of ethanol production. Yes it has a factor, but the price of oil is the bigger factor. It underlies the price of everything.

It costs farmers more to run their tractors to create the food, then it costs more to move the food around. Not to mention cost more to get everything involved (such as cans) to any production plant.[/quote]

I beg to differ. 2 years ago wheat was selling for about $2.80 per bushel. Last season it went for a little over $6. Futures were trading in February for over $13. It has since settled at a little over $9.

It is up over 3X in less than 2 years - that is for raw harvested wheat. Diesel has been over $3/gallon for at least that long, so I have a hard time swallowing the idea that a 50 cent increase in diesel translates to a 300% increase in commodity prices.

It is the ethanol, and the weak dollar that has driven the price up - at least to a much higher degree than diesel prices have.

I agree 100%. If it was really cost effective - there would not need to be any subsidies - I have the same bitch with the wind turbines.