I haven’t been doing barbell overhead presses consistently for a while. I’ve been doing most of my overhead work either as jerks or with dumbbells. However, everytime I use a barbell, my shoulder hurts. Not my deltoids, because I know muscles are meant to get sore, but my actual shoulders feel horrible after a few sets. Is this because I’m getting used to it, or am I doing something wrong. For the record, I do have a history of shoulder problems, but nothing yet from lifting.
I had impingement all through high school playing volleyball and quarterback. I was terrified of overhead pressing but I believe that only aggravated things. I still have some problems with my shoulder all the time due to the internal rotation stresses I put on it (I play collegiate volleyball), but I find that when it acts up, barbell bench is the worse thing for it.
Dumbell bench is a little better (although I still lay off that when the shoulder bothers me), and standing military/push press gives me no “bad” pain. I really believe that you have to work horizontal push/pull and vertical push/pull to keep your shoulders as healthy as possible.
One thing if you are an athlete in a sport that involves throwing and barbell bench gives you pain, switch to dumbell bench. I know my two arms have a different natural pattern of motion, probably due to the internal rotators of my right arm being much stronger. Anyone else experience this?
[quote]Miserere wrote:
Funny, I have rotator cuff issues at the moment (left shoulder) and have had them in the past (right shoulder, just to keep the balance), but I can still overhead press without any pain. I’ve always used dumbells, not sure if that would make a difference.
Overhead press is my main shoulder exercise, so I was left scratching my head when I read Ghost Wolf’s negative comments on that article.[/quote]
Just to clarify, I’m all for overhead pressing. Like I said, were I not dead, I would be doing them.
In the book ‘Starting Strength’ by Ron Kilgore and Mark Rippetoe, this is also discussed. Overhead Presses to compliment Bench Presses. Overhead Presses for the rotator cuff.
From experiences, the idea seems to be on the money.
[quote]tom63 wrote:
The problem is that people have different shaped acromion processes, [/quote]
When in the “evolutionary” process did acromion process change shapes?
[quote]Todd23 wrote:
tom63 wrote:
The problem is that people have different shaped acromion processes,
When in the “evolutionary” process did acromion process change shapes?[/quote]
Not some drastic shape. Just that some have acromion processes that are a bit more hooked. We all have clavicles but don’t have exactly the same shape. Some people’s clavicles go straight to the sides, while others tilt downwards…
There are normal variants in the shape, a slight abnormality can increase the likelihood of primary impingment( caused by a normal anatomical variant), as opposed to type 2 impingment( caused by cheanges to the surrounding muscles and connective tissue due to mechanical forces).
A type 1 impingment requires a different approach than a type 2. Type to might be hlepd by ART for instance, where type 1 is what you’re stuck with. This type would be more at risk for injury in overhead lifts and throwing sports.
[quote]Krollmonster wrote:
Not some drastic shape. Just that some have acromion processes that are a bit more hooked. [/quote]
Never seen anything of the sort in any anatomy book and could not even fathom why it would affect the arms in the over head position even if it were true. So you seem to assert that this has happened within the last generation or so? Correct? You need to write a paper on it as it is the fastest demonstrable evidence for the theory of evolution available.
You’re officially a moron. These are well know variants for people with actual medical training.
I’m a level three ART practitioner with advanced shoulder training from Dr. Dale Buchberger in shoulder injuries. He’s recognized as the chiropractic professions top shoulder man. He’s a consultant to major and minor league baseball teams etc.
in his eminar notes it is present. It is also present in clinical books related to anatomy and surgical procedures.
You’re a dumbass.
[quote]Todd23 wrote:
Krollmonster wrote:
Not some drastic shape. Just that some have acromion processes that are a bit more hooked.
Never seen anything of the sort in any anatomy book and could not even fathom why it would affect the arms in the over head position even if it were true. So you seem to assert that this has happened within the last generation or so? Correct? You need to write a paper on it as it is the fastest demonstrable evidence for the theory of evolution available.
[/quote]
An increase in hooking at the aromion process will increase the likelihood of impingment of the supraspinatus tendon.
Well golly! If it’s someone’s seminar notes, it has to be true Billy!
There was the assertion by Bill Starr that lack of overhead pressing was partially to blame for a lot of shoulder problems today. You implied that that was correct but that overhead pressing today was different because to quote you the acromion process had changed shapes! This would clearly have had to happen within the last generation or so. This is without a doubt a marvel of evolution!
Now, I don’t disagree that there are variants within individuals shoulder structures, and that at times it can efect strength trainnig. But to imply what you implied is what is moronic and to call someone a moron based on your own illogical undefended assertion is quite silly and childish and I use to have more respect for ART practioners. 1) I thought they were more profesional and less child/jr high like, 2) I really thought they were a little more discerning.
Regardless the shape of the acromion has not changed and you can inform any doctor you want to.
If you know who Tom is, you wouldn’t be making these silly comments.
Tom is infinetly more qualified then you to comment on this subject.
Fahd
[quote]Todd23 wrote:
Well golly! If it’s someone’s seminar notes, it has to be true Billy!
There was the assertion by Bill Starr that lack of overhead pressing was partially to blame for a lot of shoulder problems today. You implied that that was correct but that overhead pressing today was different because to quote you the acromion process had changed shapes! This would clearly have had to happen within the last generation or so. This is without a doubt a marvel of evolution!
Now, I don’t disagree that there are variants within individuals shoulder structures, and that at times it can efect strength trainnig. But to imply what you implied is what is moronic and to call someone a moron based on your own illogical undefended assertion is quite silly and childish and I use to have more respect for ART practioners. 1) I thought they were more profesional and less child/jr high like, 2) I really thought they were a little more discerning.
Regardless the shape of the acromion has not changed and you can inform any doctor you want to.[/quote]
I read and re-read his post and just can not see how you get any implication that evolution is involved in this out of it. The only changes he talked about were from trauma, wear, or adaptation to exercise.
I just do not see a source for what you are objecting too.
Do a google search on normal anatomical variants of the acromion process and you will find pictures that show what we are talking about.
The types are type 1,2,and 3. From one to three they become more hooked. This increases the likehood of developing impingment snydrome ( secondary), and it might also cause primary impingment just becasue of the anatomical variant. If you have a more hooked shape acromion you’re more at risk for shoulders problems.
Kind of like of you’re cocky and stupid how you’re more likely to show your ass.
[quote]tom63 wrote:
Do a google search on normal anatomical variants of the acromion process and you will find pictures that show what we are talking about.
The types are type 1,2,and 3. From one to three they become more hooked. This increases the likehood of developing impingment snydrome ( secondary), and it might also cause primary impingment just becasue of the anatomical variant. If you have a more hooked shape acromion you’re more at risk for shoulders problems.
Kind of like of you’re cocky and stupid how you’re more likely to show your ass.[/quote]
I am well aware of anatomic variants. You said, “The problem is that people have different shaped acromion processes” in response to the assertion that in the past there was less shoulder injuries due to overhead pressing. It seems to insinuate that the shoulder (specifically the acromion process) has changed in some way structurally; I.e., not merely a variant, but changed from shoulders from the press era. If I am incorrect in my understanding of your response, please explain. So far, rather than explain you’ve acted like you’re 13.
And if you call me stupid again I’m going to go tell! Are you aware your last sentence is nonsensical?
[quote]Todd23 wrote:
tom63 wrote:
Do a google search on normal anatomical variants of the acromion process and you will find pictures that show what we are talking about.
The types are type 1,2,and 3. From one to three they become more hooked. This increases the likehood of developing impingment snydrome ( secondary), and it might also cause primary impingment just becasue of the anatomical variant. If you have a more hooked shape acromion you’re more at risk for shoulders problems.
Kind of like of you’re cocky and stupid how you’re more likely to show your ass.
I am well aware of anatomic variants. You said, “The problem is that people have different shaped acromion processes” in response to the assertion that in the past there was less shoulder injuries due to overhead pressing. It seems to insinuate that the shoulder (specifically the acromion process) has changed in some way structurally; I.e., not merely a variant, but changed from shoulders from the press era. If I am incorrect in my understanding of your response, please explain. So far, rather than explain you’ve acted like you’re 13.
And if you call me stupid again I’m going to go tell! Are you aware your last sentence is nonsensical? [/quote]
TSB
[quote]Todd23 wrote:
tom63 wrote:
Do a google search on normal anatomical variants of the acromion process and you will find pictures that show what we are talking about.
The types are type 1,2,and 3. From one to three they become more hooked. This increases the likehood of developing impingment snydrome ( secondary), and it might also cause primary impingment just becasue of the anatomical variant. If you have a more hooked shape acromion you’re more at risk for shoulders problems.
Kind of like of you’re cocky and stupid how you’re more likely to show your ass.
I am well aware of anatomic variants. You said, “The problem is that people have different shaped acromion processes” in response to the assertion that in the past there was less shoulder injuries due to overhead pressing. It seems to insinuate that the shoulder (specifically the acromion process) has changed in some way structurally; I.e., not merely a variant, but changed from shoulders from the press era. If I am incorrect in my understanding of your response, please explain. So far, rather than explain you’ve acted like you’re 13.
And if you call me stupid again I’m going to go tell! Are you aware your last sentence is nonsensical? [/quote]
Not that he needs me to defend him but I read it as, “different people have different shaped acromion processes.” Not that people today have different shaped acromion processes as compared to people in the past.
[quote]LBRTRN wrote:
Not that he needs me to defend him but I read it as, “different people have different shaped acromion processes.” Not that people today have different shaped acromion processes as compared to people in the past.
[/quote]
That’s kind of how I read it as well.
[quote]ALDurr wrote:
LBRTRN wrote:
Not that he needs me to defend him but I read it as, “different people have different shaped acromion processes.” Not that people today have different shaped acromion processes as compared to people in the past.
That’s kind of how I read it as well. [/quote]
Exactly. I don’t know where this clown got the idea that people suddenly evolved in the last few decades.
If he was so familiar with shoulder biomechancis and anatomical variants, he wouldn’t have made an issue out of this.
Starr’s point has validity, along with DeFranco’s. Benching is much more popular and does contribute to shoulder problems, as does overhead lifting and overhead sports. Swimming also can cause the same problems.
When people have a normal variant in the acromion process, they are more prone to impingment syndromes, both primary due to the anatomy, and secondarily due to mechanical changes. This must be taken in account when you train someone, or yourself.
It’s also a reason why an x ray is almost mandatory is cases of shoulder pain.
[quote]LBRTRN wrote:
Not that he needs me to defend him but I read it as, “different people have different shaped acromion processes.” Not that people today have different shaped acromion processes as compared to people in the past.
[/quote]
Exactly. Todd23 just read it wrong.