T Nation

Bill Roberts you once told me..WHY?

What is Finaplix and how do I make it? JUST KIDDING! Bill you once told me: “Never have just protein, either P&C or P&F never just P.” Well I know why I should not have carbs and fats alone however why not just 40g of protein? I assume the insulin responce will be okay with a slower acting protein. Just protein with some meals could lower calories while dieting at 7cals per lb of LBM like you have recommended for androgen dieting. Is it so the protein isn’t all used for energy? (IE: The fat or carbs would be so the protein is used more for muscle repair?) One more quick note-I know you favor protein at night if you awake to use the restroom while bulking but whats your take on protein at night while dieting? Keep in mind I sleep for 9-10 hour sometimes! Thanks Again!

Well, as to having a single protein-only shake at some point, that may be a different matter (still isn’t the best approach probably) but certainly those that have tried diets that are basically protein-only don’t do nearly as well as those that have the same number of calories but include carbs and/or protein.

Actually, Bill, if you did make this “no protein-only meals” recommendation, I’d also be interested in hearing why.

Sorry, your last message hadn’t posted yet when I saw the thread…


But still, is there some reason for preferring not to have P-only meals? While the vast majority of my meals are P+F or P+C, I sometimes just drink a scoop of AP after I’ve eaten too much at a previous meal. I feel like I’m at least keeping my protein level up without adding even more calories. Not a good idea?

Bill, say after sleeping for 10 hours and you have a pure protein shake. Would the body use it as fuel or would the body burn glycogen or fat and use the protein for muscle building?

I am just repeating what you had told me. If It yeilds better results that make sense. It’s just than when shooting for such low calories (7 cals per lb of lbm) just a protein shake can save 130 cals if I don’t add the fat. 2 protein shakes (casien plus whey) without added fat could chop off 100-300 caloires per day!-I am not saying a no fat diet or all just protein meals as I will get some fats in lean beef and of course my fish oil supps…So I am thinking what you might say is: "Yes on a diet consisting of Berardi style eating it would be okay to drop the fat in some P & F meals to further reduce calories as long as one was on androgens and still getting the all important EFA’s.) I am thinking if I gotta drop a few hundred cals to hit the goal of 7 cals per lb/lbm it would be better to keep the protein (1g per llb of lbm daily) up and carbs (4g perlb/lbm weekly) up.
(*Note:to people who will jump on this, we are talking about fast fat loss on vey low calorie diets and lots of androgens.)

Though I’m always reluctant to press Bill’s tireless patience, I too would like to hear his opinion on solo protein meals. I routinely drink two, even three shakes a day with only Grow and some cheap whey when I’m cutting. When low carbing, how many carb grams would be enough to legitimize the meal as P + C but still keep overall calories down? And for P + F, is it as easy as washing down some fish oil caps or Udo’s? I’d welcome any feedback on this “never solo protein” concept.

I really don’t know because the question of having some protein-only meals, but the day overall having enough carbs and/or fat, isn’t one that I’ve ever looked at. I do know that over the course of the day, getting 4 cal/lb lbm/ (just my own figure) of total carbs and fat, whether all-low-carb for the day, or all-low-fat, or some mix, is better than trying to make do with less. So for example this can work out to 1 gram protein per lb LBM per day and 8 cal/lb LBM/day total calories.

I’ve had the intuitive belief that it’s better to have all meals be a good mix of macronutrients rather than have a mix of odd meals. For example, in a day that’s intended to end up isocaloric, having three meals of F+C with no protein, and three meals of protein-only, almost surely would be a poor approach even though the totals at the end of the day add up (in this I disagree at least with the literal statement of Dan Duchaine that individual meal composition doesn’t matter so long as the daily total comes out correct, and I have no proof I am correct.)

If I am right in that – actually, that should be easy enough for someone to test because I suspect the difference would be drastic enough to be very obvious in a short period of time – then it would somewhat follow that a compromise approach wherein the number of “odd” meals was less than three would still likely compromise results. An exception could be where meals are closely enough spaced where absorptions overlap.

For example, and this is what I had in mind above, where choosing to consume low carbs and not willing to have carbs post workout, a protein-only shake immediately post-training, followed within two hours by a P+F meal, might be a productive plan.

However, personally in most cases I’d disagree with the preference of having no carbs post workout.

Okay Bill, we are not reaching each other. I understand F+C would be bad for many reasons. I am saying this: Say I have 3 P+C meals around my workout. Then I have 3 more meals that are P+F. BUT I want to keep my calories as low as possible so instead I have just P+nothing meals instead of P+F. Why do I need the fat with the Protein if: 1) I have been consuming EPA/DHA Fish Oil caps all day to equal 6-10g? 2) Small amounts of fat in P+C and Fish oil caps get me well over 25g of total fat daily? 3) I am on androgens? I guess what it comes down to, is do I need the fat when the hormones are fine due to androgen intake? If I drop 30g of fat I drop a good 270 calories!(say dropping 10g of extra fat I would have consumed for the P+F meals.) So now I can get more carbs and or protein in the fat’s place. Again I am getting the EFA’s, getting the carbs, getting the proteins, and I am on signifigant androgens so no need to worry about low T-levels. So perhaps Mr. Roberts it comes down to how little can ones total fat intake be while on androgens? I know you have said not much fat is needed on AAS in the past. Thanks again!

I am thinking JW that if you are getting a good amount of EFA’s and Flax totallling say 30g fat daily just protein meals would be fine because a clend like grow is slow releasing anyway…no need for extra fat its just a way to increas cals when gaining weight NOT DIETING.

Do you think 30g/day is enough to stave off the androgens damaging effect on HDL levels? I would think you might need more monounsaturates. I would also be concerned about elevating lipogenic enzymes and supressing lipolytic enzymes at such a low fat intake. I think those extra fat calories would help more than they would hurt. But as you know, I am no expert on androgen dieting, just had to throw some ideas out.

That’s funny I think I said: "to Bill: not “to Marc.” Just kidding-I beleive you are right Marc I am just curious about the topic. Please note I do not use illegal drugs of any kind.

I don’t know, I think I said what I meant but perhaps not clearly. The way you want to do it, JW, sounds fine. The problem is when the totals for the day are bad OR when, to get the totals reasonable, other meals have to be whacked to counterbalance having gotten no carbs or fat in the protein-only meals. As would generally be the case if making protein-only meals a substantial part of the day’s intake (as opposed to say a single shake.)