T Nation

Bill Roberts, Others - Any Opinions of the following Anti-Estrogen Compounds

All,

Have any of you ever heard of the following:
Di-Indolin (diindolymethane or DIM)
Passiflora Coerulea
Urtica Dioca

Would they be effective in the reduction of estrogen related side-effects after an AAS cycle?

Thanks…Pete

DIM seems a complete flop for bodybuilding purposes, and the arguments used to “prove” effectiveness were not valid ones. I don’t doubt it has health benefits however at reasonable doses, such as what you’d get from eating a few servings of broccoli. I looked into this one quite extensively while working on an anti-estrogen project (now being worked on by Brock and another researcher.)

The passiflora, I never looked into.

Thanks Bill. You guys are working on an anti-estrogen? When is the expected availability date? After my experience with Finasol (Gyno) I am very hesitant to do another cycle without a good anti-estrogen. I would inject, but my wife is already mad enough at me as it is with my purchase of Finaplix (for our cattle of course). Any suggestions?

Thanks…Pete

I have to totally disagree with Bill here. Dr. Michael A. Zeligs M.D., in his article “The Bright Side of DIM” explains exactly how and why Di-Indolin is a good anti-estrogen, and he cites studies proving that Di-Indolin raises the blood level of free testosterone via Di-Indolin’s anti-estradiol activity. There are a lot of good products out there, and the T-mag staffers and writers seem to have a bad habit of calling them “crap” and “flops” when it simply is not true.

Jason, at the time I was looking into DIM, the studies being cited (to attempt to prove increases in testosterone) WERE crap. It is not a question of T-mag writers having a “bad habit” of calling things crap, it’s that the methods used, 24 hour urinary excretion, did not prove what they were claiming.

The article you cite is I take it not from any scientific journal. Looking at Medline right now, it seems that there are NO articles that have both diindolylmethane and “free testosterone” in their abstracts. So what study is it, if any, that proved free testosterone increased?

For that matter, there are only two that turn up searching for just indolylmethane and testosterone (as opposed to free testosterone) and neither of these are remotely in the neighborhood of proving blood testosterone
levels increase in man… didn’t even try to.

ALL juicers I know seem to think that antiestrogen supplements are for shit. Personally, I’ve gotten success from Di-Indolin, chyrsin, and even Gyno-Tek. I used them all separately after different cycles. It wasn’t as a precaution either. Twice I got itchy nipples after a cycle and once I got BAD swelling. I got the supplements at cost and used WAY more then the label recommended. I took the pills in the container and divided it by 7 so I took it all in a week. Every time it alleviated me of my symptoms.

ok, i have to ask this again, Bill, what about DICYCLOFENIL? supposedly Duchaine was a big poponent of it.

Bill, using your logic, we can also conclude that 4-AD is “crap.” I have never read about 4-AD in any scientific journal. I have never read about Androsol’s unique delivery system in any scientific journal. Hence, according to your logic, Androsol must be “crap.” See the problem with your logic? “Miracle drugs” such as penicillin, chlorpromazine, and lithium carbonate were considered “crap” at one time too. Galileo’s theory of heliocentrism was once considered “crap.” See what I’m getting at? Regarding Di-Indolin, there may not be sufficient proof (at this time) beyond anecdotal evidence to prove its efficacy, but on the other hand, you have no proof to support your claim that it is “crap.” The article I cited is very convincing in support of Di-Indolin’s anti-estrogen efficacy. I will be happy to debate you further on the issue, but at the moment I’m too drunk and too tired. See you in the morning.

No, Jason. If I said I’d proven Androsol was a great muscle builder because I found a certain level of it in the urine, that would be a crap “proof” of my claim. I’m not holding myself to a different standard.

When they claimed higher free testosterone
based not on measurement of free testosterone but measurement of testosterone in the URINE (and the urine is not the major route of elimination by the way) that was crap. Not because it was somebody else and not me doing it – it would have been crap if I’d done it too (however, I would not have unless I had just had a lobotomy.)

Your “arguments” about penicillin, etc. are
non sequitur and do not either disprove my
statements or really do anything to support
yours.

Show me where anyone has found increased free
testosterone levels and then I will take that as support for your claim that free testosterone levels increase. As long as you can’t name any such place, I think it’s reasonable to agree that you’ve given us no reason to think free testosterone levels increase. Fair deal?

dman, cyclofenil is a drug somewhat similar to tamoxifen and clomiphene. I know of no reason to prefer it, and no evidence that it is better or as good as Clomid. If for some reason cyclofenil were on hand, sure, it could be used as an anti-estrogen. I don’t recall the dose. For similar antiestrogens, the same dose used
in anticancer treatment or for fertility treatment has been about what we find appropriate in bodybuilding as well, so if you can find that dose, you’re set.

I think the studies showed in increase in urinary ESTOGEN not testosterone. Last time I bought the Substrate Solutions DI-INDOLIN there was a package insert saying that. I think there was a study referenced for that statement if anybody wanted to check for the study.

I recall a urinary testosterone claim as well… but urinary estrogen is just as poor a test at indicating whether or not blood estrogen levels are reduced.

For example, suppose DIM simply speeds the rate of urinary elimination, while urinary elimination is not the major route of excretion for estrogens. I don’t have a figure for estradiol, but for ethinyl estradiol, for example (estradiol itself may differ somewhat) only 1-5% is excreted in the urine, the rest in the bile. So urinary excretion could increase but this would not necessarily mean that overall rate of elimination was much increased at all.

Or consider this… suppose DIM resulted in increased estrogen synthesis! (Not saying it does, but suppose, as an example.) Guess what? Probably higher urinary excretion of estrogen!

This is why I said I would have used urinary steroid levels as alleged proof of change in blood levels only if I had just had a lobotomy.

I take the DI-INDOLIN from Substrate Solutions too and have read the insert too. But the most impressive argument in favor of the efficacy of Di-Indolin is the article “The Bright Side of DIM.” I know the moderators probably won’t let me post the url to the article, but if you do a search on yahoo, you’ll probably find it. I respect Bill Roberts, but I will stand by DI-INDOLIN despite Bill’s claims that it is a “flop.”

Bill Roberts wrote: “Your ‘arguments’ about penicillin, etc. are non sequitur and do not
either disprove my statements or really do anything to support yours.”

That was the whole point I was trying to make, Bill.

Jason, Bill Roberts is formally trained in science and logic while you on the other hand are probably not. Since I also have been formally trained in science (graduate level) I think I’ll stick with Bill Roberts theories regarding what is “crap” and what is not. Stick to what you know, in other words, racism and white supremacy. FYI, I am white and look like I could be on a Hitler Youth Camp poster.

Neither DIM nor Chrysin has ever been shown to be efficacious with respect to in vivo reductions in estrogen levels. There simply is no credible evidence to support an argument to the contrary.

Cromagnon, Dr. Michael A. Zeligs M.D. is also knowledgable in science, moreover he is an M.D., whereas Bill Roberts is not. So I think that Dr. Zeligs is more qualified to determine what is or what is not “crap” than a bunch of steroid gurus (no offense). Cromagnon, for no apparent reason mention that you could be a Hitler Youth poster boy. Is that your way of saying you want to join the White Nationalist movement?

Michael A. Zeligs is President and Co-Founder of BioResponse, LLC, a company which markets a product containing DIM (i.e., “Indolplex”). Zeligs is hardly what could be termed an objective source of information regarding the efficacy of DIM. Further, BioResponse has come under fire from a number of credible entities with respect to its product claims. In one example, the FDA has rejected BioResponse’s conclusion that Indolplex is a “safe” product, and has informed the company that a supplement product containing DIM is adulterated. Specifically, in an April 9, 2000 letter to Zeligs, FDA’s James Tanner – of the Office of Special Nutritionals – noted that the firm had submitted a 75-day premarket notification for the ingredient on Aug. 11, 1997. Stating that the agency has “carefully considered the information”, Tanner said FDA “has significant concerns about the evidence on which you rely to support your conclusion that a dietary supplement containing DIM will reasonably be expected to be safe.” Although I don’t necessarily agree with the FDA’s conclusion, the simple facts remain that (1) no objective peer-reviewed literature has been published that proves the efficiacy of DIM for reducing estrogen levels and (2) irrespective of the issue of efficacy, eating a few servings of cruciferous vegetables is a much less expensive method of ingesting DIM.

One guy on the Life Extension Foundation forum took DIM and had blood work done. He found an increase in test. levels, not sure what happened to his estradiol levels.

Bill Roberts is obviously a quite learned individual on the subject. Kennedy, on the other hand, gives out dangerously unresearched information. I would be very careful in prescribing to any theory he expounds upon.

You know Jason, you’re funny. No matter what you say I end up laughing. If we could assure ourselves that we wouldn’t get angry, I bet you’d be a blast to have a beer with and talk about “stuff”. The comment regarding my appearance was to assure you that I wasn’t commenting on your views based upon my belonging to an ethnic group that you may have bashed previously in this forum. Just wanted to let you know that there are alot of white, European descended males out there who don’t share your views regarding race mixing and religious faiths. You’re obviously an intelligent, well read guy but you focus your energies in directions that are better left alone. You should try to be more open minded when it comes to Bill Roberts, it is obvious by his writing that he has no interest in whether you believe him or not and is only stating facts based on data that he has collected or that has been supported thru scientific methods.