Bill Nye #2: Creationism Is Not Appropriate For Children

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Sure it does, but that does not mean that atheism was the “front and center, driving factor”.
[/quote]

Bullshit. Wishing it weren’t so, is not the same as it not being so.

Just because Stalin targeted the institutions of the religious, does not mean that it was “done in the name of atheism”, that’s lazy reasoning. Stop being so lazy, and think about it.

LOL @ your link.

[quote]Pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Pat wrote:
It doesn’t really matter that Stalin used what was left of the orthodox church as a propaganda tool.[/quote]

Yes it does, it absolutely shores up my point that religion was used as a tool for controlling and manipulating the masses. This should be plain to see, even for you.
[/quote]

You have no point, you’ve failed to make one, you just steered the conversation to what you believe is a more defensible point for your weak position. Deluding yourself on facts doesn’t make a point. Not only that, you previously said and repeated this statement wasn’t true anyway. It’s fanatics and nuts of all kinds.
[/quote]

I’ve successfully made my point over and over again; not my fault that your intellectual laziness disallows you to recognize it. Or perhaps I’m giving you too much credit in that regard, and you’re just too stupid to see it?

Which one is it, Patty Cakes? Intellectual laziness, or simple stupididty? Let me know when you get around to it.

[quote]Pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Pat wrote:
The fact remains that Atheism was state imposed and the religious were murdered with impunity. No attempt to rewrite history is going to change that fact.[/quote]

No such thing as “state imposed atheism”, sorry if you cannot understand that. Nobody is changing history here, you’re simply failing to understand it as you filter it through a religious bias. [/quote]

Did you even go to school?
http://www.globalmuseumoncommunism.org/features/war_on_religion

You are just flat a history denier…[/quote]

Tell me how the state can force someone to be an atheist, I’d like to hear it.

Also on this note, you seem to be confused. First you say with great drama how “even at the point of a gun they can’t force someone to give up their belief”, but then you start your ranting about how the state somehow can impose, by force, a non belief.

Clear up your arguments, Pat, this makes you sound like a dumbass.

[quote]Pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Pat wrote:
If you read all of it, you would know what it says. Stalin was an atheist and an staunch one. He blew up churches, murdere
d religious people, starved them and put them in work camps.

It was Lenin during the Bolshevik Revolution who took 200 Christian School Children as a means to exterminate religion.[/quote]

Stalin also targeted communists; killed and murdered them, imprisoned them, etc. This did not make him a militant capitalist. I read that Mao played table tennis too, does this make him a table tennis killer? No, but using the “logic” you are, it would.
[/quote]

You wouldn’t know logic if it kicked you in the balls.
Here’s more on your pal Stalin.

http://www.historydoctor.net/Advanced%20Placement%20European%20History/Notes/soviet_union_under_stalin.htm[/quote]

You avoided the question. Did Stalin also target fellow Communists? Murder and imprison them? Does this make him a militant capitalist? Do answer…

Aaaaaaand, I’m not arguing with you about the facts surrounding what Stalin did. I’m fully aware of what he did, and I’m not disputing them. I’m just pointing out to you, your failed, simplistic, biased interpretations of those facts.

[quote]Pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Pat wrote:
Hey, it’s up to you if you want to defend the mother fucker to suit your own purposes, but facts are facts.[/quote]

Nice try, asshole. But I’m not defending him, I’m simply explaining to you the base reasoning for what occurred. [/quote]

By falsifying and rewriting history? By denying what has been written on in volumes? You know Stalin’s reasoning? He didn’t even trust his kids, but his motivations were clear. Not all his murders were religiously based, but many millions were. You can try to deny it, but your full of shit or really stupid if you do.[/quote]

SIGH You’re getting boring as shit with this tripe. Yes he killed lots and lots and lots of the religious, but that does not mean that atheism was the driving force. Destroying the institution of the church, and it’s power base was; try to wrap your head around that.

[quote]Pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Pat wrote:
And none of this has to do with whether or not God exists or not. Stalin could have been the pope, it still makes no difference.[/quote]

You’re the one who’s continually trying to steer this thread into a debate on whether or not god exists. But you’re right, and make my point…again. Stalin could have been the most religious man in history, full of faith in the lord, and his reasoning would’ve been the same; power, control, and political dogma. Every time.

[quote]Pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Pat wrote:
Hmmm… this sounds familiar:

" Communism required the abolition of religion[3]. Convinced atheists were considered to be more virtuous individuals than those of religious belief [3]."

“Some actions against Orthodox priests and believers along with execution included torture, being sent to prison camps, labour camps or mental hospitals.”

http://www.scribd.com/doc/40973100/Persecution-of-Christians-in-the-Soviet-Union-The-Anti-Religious-Campaigns

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/soviet.exhibit/anti_rel.html[/quote]

Your first and fourth link are the same. But once again, this was not done in the name of atheism, but the pursuit of state interests. If you’re Stalin, and you’re enforcing the dogma of state collectivization/Marxism/Communism, then you certainly don’t want to compete with the dogma of religion, and you certainly would not be interested in sharing any any of the power/control that the church had over the people.

Power and control, it always comes back to that. Always.[/quote]

And atheism. State imposed atheism was the rule of the day and millions were murdered because of it, get over it.[/quote]

Again, there is no such thing as “state imposed atheism”, it’s impossible. You said it yourself; not even the barrel of a gun can make someone not believe if they already do. A state can ban religion, and even murder the religious, but it cannot impose a non belief.

[quote]Pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
I’ve told you before, Pat, I was raised as a catholic, did the whole CCD thing, I’ve read the bible although not cover to cover, did the whole Sunday school thing, and was even in Awana’s. You act as though I’ve never been exposed to religion, but the truth is that I’ve spent the larger portion of my life knee deep in it. I was just one of the lucky ones who escaped the delusion.

But by all means, keep incorrectly painting me as someone who doesn’t understand religion.[/quote]

I am not incorrect, your own words bare this out. You don’t know shit about it. I don’t care how long you spent in CCD, your pal Stalin was in seminary, and still turned out atheist.[/quote]

Tell me how my own words bare this out. I’ve more than proved you wrong about understanding of religion. More nonsensical ranting from you.

[quote]Pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
WOW, you’re really spiraling off the deep end. If you go back and reread what I wrote, I clearly stated that religion is politics, and politics is power. Politics, power, crushing competing dogmas, the need to control and impose; all endemic to tyrants and religions.

BUT, like was said, evil people will always do evil, but it takes religion for good people to do evil.[/quote]

There is no evil in your world remember? It’s all relative. Rereading what you wrote is jumping down the rabbit hole of wishful thinking and fact denying. It’s like your tirib’s mirror image.

Here’s a clue for you, if you have deny reality or make shit up to prove a point, you don’t have one and never did.[/quote]

I never fucking said that “there is no evil in my world”. LOL…what a clown you are.

Red herring much?

[quote]Pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
FACT: Atheism cannot be mandated by the state. A state can ban religion, but it cannot force a non belief. Spinning the facts cannot help your case.[/quote]

Fact, it was and I provided a bunch of examples. It was soviet policy. Go look it up. For once do some fucking research.[/quote]

FACT: you provided a bunch of exaples where Stalin targeted the religious institutions and attempted to eliminate them as a rival power structure. You provided no examples of atheism for the sake of atheism being the sole catalyst for these atrocicities. Keep trying.

For once, try to udersatnd what the fuck your talking about.

[quote]Pat wrote:
Fact: The state hosted a series of anti-religious campaigns which included but was not limited to extermination, forced-labor camps, and imprisonment.[/quote]

I realize that, and I’m not arguing that these things occurred, but ask yourself WHY they occurred. This fact does not equate to atheism as the driving factor; just doesn’t. It’s getting pathetic that I have to keep repeating this for you. You need to go deeper in this, and think a little more critically. Perhaps your religious bias cannot allow for it. Your loss.
[/quote]

Why they occurred is because they were trying to get rid of religion all together by any means possible. That’s what they stated, that’s what history says and anything beyond that is pure speculation without a scintilla of fact. You have YET to present a single fact supporting your magical assertion that this shit didn’t happen. Your living in fantasy land. [/quote]

Of course that’s what they stated as their resoning, because that’s what they wanted to do, they wanted to rid the nation of all religious institutions. LOL…you’re too fucking stupid to know what points I agree with you on.

WHY were they trying to rid the nation of religious institutions? What purpose would that serve a tyrant not wanting to be rivaled by any other institution of power and influence, and demanding totall servility to the state?

If you’d do some thinking on this, you’ll see it. Then again, perhaps you won’t.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Pat wrote:
These are facts. The links prove it, you’re just plain FUCKED here. Like usual you got nothing but some wishful thinking and some minority of leftist, idiots attempting history rewrites. Like I said, my family lived it, you cannot spin that shit.
Why don’t you ask Dr. Matt how tolerated religion was in the USSR, even in the “good times” prior to the collapse?[/quote]

Your understanding of the facts is just pathetic. Yes these atrocities occurred, I’m not arguing this. But it does not changed the base reasoning for it. It doesn’t matter what your family went through, doesn’t do a fucking ting for the fact that the base reasoning for what happened was power, control, and political/religious dogma. This is where YOU’RE fucked, because you cannot escape this fact. [/quote]

So your saying you understand the reasoning behind all of this, beyond the stated facts? Now that’s funny.
Somebody says they did something for a particular reason and all you can comeback with is, “That’s not the reason they did it”…[/quote]

Yes, I do understand why he did what he did, it’s you who miserably fails in that regard.

Show me where Stalin was quoted as saying that all he did was in the name of atheism, I’d like to see it. Now, I’m sure you’ll find plenty of anti-religious quotes from him, but I’m wanting to see some quotes from him that shore up your assertation that atheism was the driving factor for all he did, and was “front and center” the resoning for his murders. Let’s see these quotes.

[quote]Pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Your all over the place here, you must be worked up into some religious frenzy. LOL

Yes, Stalin committed atrocities against the religious. Yes, Stalin attempted to crush religious institutions. BUT, you’re still not going deep enough into the reasoning because you desperately want this to be about atheism for the sake of atheism.[/quote]

Deep enough? Wow! just Wow! “Your so stupid, you’re not going beyond the stated facts” Uh, huh. So we have to look deeper because it could not have been a motivation to impose a supposed ‘non-belief’ on a people by force.[/quote]

Again, you cannot enforce a non-belief on someone, even by force. So yes, you’re not going deep enough, keep trying.

[quote]Pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Do I really need to post links to all the christian martyrs of the world who died defending the christian superstition? Perhaps I could post links for those who’ve happily died in the name of all the religious superstitions of the world?

Ohhhh, that’s right. Christianity is the one true religion. LOL[/quote]

You’d first have to prove it’s superstition dumbass… Something you cannot do. You cannot even support your own atheism much less prove any religious belief to be false.[/quote]

I don’t have to support my atheism, it’s folks like you that have to support your belief.

Perhaps your more comfortable with “Bronze Age Mythology”?

[quote]Pat wrote:
Well, you’ve been mighty entertaining with mystical ‘deeper reasons’ behind atrocities committed for the stated reason of getting rid of religion and religious by any means necessary. If anybody is full of shit here it’s you. Trying to make up fake reasons for the millions murdered because of the imposition of atheism. But no, it’s not a fact because they had ‘deeper reasons’. They didn’t really mean it when they said it, they actually meant other things which apparently only you know, and have NO backup for. ZERO facts. You’re the one engaging in wishful thinking here, not me…

Perhaps you can entertain me with how things magically ‘poof’ into existence for no reason and no cause. 'Cause I’d sure like to know how that works.[/quote]

Start the thread, Pat, you’re just dying to talk about this. Just do it and quit fucking whining about it.

In the meantime, your argument of:
[i]

  1. Stalin was an atheist
  2. Stalin murdered/imprisoned many of the religious in his rise to power
  3. Therefore atheism leads to murder and atrocities.[/i]

Is laughable and sad. Your overly simplistic reasining is embarrasing you.

For the last time, I’ll spell it out for you. Atheism doesn’t drive people like Mao, Stalin, or anyone else to commit the atrocities that they commited, fanatacism does, dogma does, the need for power and control does. Atheism has no agenda, no dogma, no system of beliefs, nothing. It’s nothing more than the non belief in any of the deities currently worshipped in any of the religions of the world. We don’t believe in your god, or their god, or any of the gods in the history of the world.

People were murderd and imprisoned because they and their institutions were a threat to the state. Period, end of story. Your ravings won’t change that, no matter how bad you’re dying to paint atheism as some sort of evil that drives people to do evil things. Dogma should be what you rail against, yet ironically all you do is support religious dogma.

Atheism doesn’t kill, fanatacism does.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]colt44 wrote:
Pat, not really tryin to get into anything, but the link you provided is quite biased

http://scholarscorner.com/home

“Uncovering A Biblical Worldview”
“Viewing Contemporary Culture Through the Eyes of Christ.”

I havent followed along much with you and Big Flamer, but I would think you could use something a bit more “scholarly” :)[/quote]

You find one bias link out of all I provided? I can say I have been deliberately avoiding biased links but if one sneaked through, oops.
Now the point is simple, the fact that atheist ideology doesn’t kill is pure bullshit and there are reams and reams of documentation proving that not only that it did, but still does. I haven’t even gotten to the current religious persecutions in North Korea.
There is no evidence, outside of extremely biased atheist propaganda sources that support the notion that it wasn’t atheist ideology. That is why flamer cannot produce any evidence to support his view. They’re all extremely biased.

I don’t see his ego letting it go though, no matter how much evidence I provide, he will have to finish by calling me names and saying I am wrong, just 'cause. [/quote]

You’ve absolutely failed, in every regard, to support your calim that atheism was the central driving force behind Stalin’s atrocities. All you’ve provided for was proof that those atrocities occurred, something I do not dispute. You’r claim is false, as I’ve proved again and again.

You’re a fucking delusional clown, and I’ve enjoyed watching you devolve into a ranting religious nut job once again. Thanks for the fun, Patty cakes. I’ll give you the last crazy word in this discussion between you and I, as it’s plain to see that YOU’RE ego wouldn’t have it any other way.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:<<< Atheism doesn’t kill, fanatacism does. >>>[/quote]This is like saying “Guns don’t kill. Bullets do”. I don’t believe anybody ever committed a single atrocity in the name of atheism per se. The atrocities themselves were a symptom of atheism. Nobody went around proclaiming “LONG LIVE ATHEISM!!!”, but the absence of Christian principles which forbid genocide this is what you get. DO NOT start spouting Catholic atrocities at me Sparky. I’m on your side there.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]opeth7opeth wrote:<<< Do you have any epistemological self-awareness?[/quote]This is a verbatim Van Tillian question. He used it in his classroom lectures. Please explain why you ask him this? If you would be so accommodating.
[/quote]

I’ve heard of Van Til but I’m not very familiar with Van Tillian beliefs let alone Van Tillian “verbatim questions.” Matty had written:

I would like to know how Matty KNOWS that “Most Christian is both relative and subjective.” I wanted to know if he was AWARE that what he wrote above could be applied to himself. Clearly everyone has a STANDARD by which they make their judgments. Some people apply one standard to themselves while applying a different standard to others.

However, having said all that, I would voice surface-level agreement with his disagreement concerning your assertion of America being “the most Christian.” But like you had said to Matty, this is really not the thread for discussing “by what standard?” does Matty or yourself judge who is and is not “most Christian.”

[quote]opeth7opeth wrote:<<< Clearly everyone has a STANDARD by which they make their judgments. Some people apply one standard to themselves while applying a different standard to others. >>>[/quote] Clearly. I couldn’t agree more. tiribulus@gmail.com . if you are so inclined drop me a quick hello. I’d like to talk to you offline. I would have pm’d you in the first place, but there is an ongoing issue with T-Nation’s private message piece for their software somewhere. OR, they don’t want us talkin about this stuff. But I’m pretty sure it’s the former.
The Secret History of Money - Politics and World Issues - Forums - T Nation

From another thread

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Sorry to interrupt.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
…yes, I consider atheism a religion…
[/quote]
I wonder where readers of this forum have heard that before?
And oh my oh my, does it ever make some of them burn to hear it.[/quote]
Still waiting for your response about the statements you made in the Nye 2 thread push.
Again, apologies to everyone for interrupting. Very interesting thread btw.[/quote]

Your answer was given in that thread. Go do your homework. I don’t have the time to spoon feed the likes of you. You fucked up earlier in the thread and created disinterest on my part when it comes to engaging you. I told you this already.[/quote]
No answer was given push, you refuse to follow up on your statement.

That’s terriblylazy push, I’m disappointed. Also, don’t demand that people provide evidence for your own arguments.

Original statement

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Push, where do these fellows fit in with the creationist worldview?

More specifically these two.

and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromagnon[/quote]

Speaking of human fossils and especially their alleged primate ancestors, where are they? There should be billions of them. In actuality there are very few. And in many cases all we get are bone fragments or teeth.

Matt, by the way, you should never have mentioned Neanderthal and Cromagnon. You just shot yourself in the foot, my friend.[/quote]

Apparently, in push’s mind, simply making a statement makes it true. Kind of strange.

I know this may seem unrelenting of me, but this kind of behavior pisses me off. To me, if you make a statement, however stupid or valid, follow it up with your own reasoning or evidence, or something, and not this dodging bullshit.

And I still feel I owe you a response to the long one you gave to the epistemology thread Matty. You took a lot of time which I appreciate. The trouble is your response was a long string of assertions and questions that are all answered in that thread itself. Seriously.

I do still plan to grab something key from your response and follow up there. I also haven’t forgotten about DrMatt or DrSkeptix. That’s not even mentioning dearest Christopher, ecclesiology and Romans 2. I am even busier than ever which I thought was impossible. Lotsa stuff goin on. If only some of it could could make me some money LOL!

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
From another thread
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/proof_were_not_kneejerks?pageNo=2#5398277

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Sorry to interrupt.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
…yes, I consider atheism a religion…
[/quote]
I wonder where readers of this forum have heard that before?
And oh my oh my, does it ever make some of them burn to hear it.[/quote]
Still waiting for your response about the statements you made in the Nye 2 thread push.
Again, apologies to everyone for interrupting. Very interesting thread btw.[/quote]

Your answer was given in that thread. Go do your homework. I don’t have the time to spoon feed the likes of you. You fucked up earlier in the thread and created disinterest on my part when it comes to engaging you. I told you this already.[/quote]

You mean you don’t care to back up the statements you make.
That’s awful lazy push, I’m disappointed. Also, don’t demand that people provide evidence for your own arguments.

Original statement

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Push, where do these fellows fit in with the creationist worldview?

More specifically these two.

and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromagnon[/quote]

Speaking of human fossils and especially their alleged primate ancestors, where are they? There should be billions of them. In actuality there are very few. And in many cases all we get are bone fragments or teeth.

Matt, by the way, you should never have mentioned Neanderthal and Cromagnon. You just shot yourself in the foot, my friend.[/quote]

Apparently, in push’s mind, simply making a statement makes it true. Kind of strange.

I know this may seem unrelenting of me, but this kind of behavior pisses me off. To me, if you make a statement, however stupid or valid, follow it up with your own reasoning or evidence, or something, and not this dodging bullshit. [/quote]

Push is quite ignorant on the subject of the fossil record (and Evolutionary Theory in its entirety as well) as evidenced by the statement “there should be billions of fossils.” One of the problems with most creationists in regards to the fossil record, assume we must have every transitional fossil of everything that ever lived. According to creationists, wIth every new fossil we find, means we need to find another, and another and another. It’s kind of like the math anaology, if you divide the number 1 by 2, and get .5. Then divide that by two, and then that by two. you will never reach 0…etc it never ends with them. We have a huge fossils record, and the fact that way have such a huge amount in consideration of that process is astounding.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Sure it does, but that does not mean that atheism was the “front and center, driving factor”.
[/quote]

Bullshit. Wishing it weren’t so, is not the same as it not being so.

Just because Stalin targeted the institutions of the religious, does not mean that it was “done in the name of atheism”, that’s lazy reasoning. Stop being so lazy, and think about it.

LOL @ your link.
[/quote]
What does it mean? It made him horny? LOL at your lack of any proof of your points. If all you got is a bulshit flag, then you got nothing.

You have no point, you’ve failed to make one, you just steered the conversation to what you believe is a more defensible point for your weak position. Deluding yourself on facts doesn’t make a point. Not only that, you previously said and repeated this statement wasn’t true anyway. It’s fanatics and nuts of all kinds.
[/quote]

I’ve successfully made my point over and over again; not my fault that your intellectual laziness disallows you to recognize it. Or perhaps I’m giving you too much credit in that regard, and you’re just too stupid to see it?

Which one is it, Patty Cakes? Intellectual laziness, or simple stupididty? Let me know when you get around to it.
[/quote]

You’ve susccessfully made a point?! LOL! Where? If anything you have been engaged in a massive FAIL from the start. Your started with a losing point and went down hill from there.
You refusing to look at the reams of evidence that shows that atheist idology and state policy was the driving force for many, murders, tortures, and exiles is pure unadulterated stupidity on your part.
Calling me names, flamey, will not make your invalid point any more valid. And the only people here more intellectually lazy than you are HH and tirib.

The point isn’t whether it succeeded, the point was the deliberate targeting of religion and religious peoples due to non-compliance with state atheism. This happened, it’s a matter of historic fact, you have nothing to back up your points and I do. The dumbass is you. Complete and total and nothing can save you.

You wouldn’t know logic if it kicked you in the balls.
Here’s more on your pal Stalin.

http://www.historydoctor.net/Advanced%20Placement%20European%20History/Notes/soviet_union_under_stalin.htm[/quote]

You avoided the question. Did Stalin also target fellow Communists? Murder and imprison them? Does this make him a militant capitalist? Do answer…

Aaaaaaand, I’m not arguing with you about the facts surrounding what Stalin did. I’m fully aware of what he did, and I’m not disputing them. I’m just pointing out to you, your failed, simplistic, biased interpretations of those facts.
[/quote]
You clearly aren’t “fully aware” of what he did, you can’t be because nobody is totally sure at the depths of his cruelty. The fact that he murdered others, does not invalidate the fact the he murdered thousands of religious because they were religious and no other reason. Ignoring the facts, doesn’t make them disappear it just makes you delusional at a very profound level.

We the stated reason is to purge religion and the religious, when they murder and send you to gulags because you are not an atheist, it very much is the driving force. It’s not just Stalin, Lenin did a heck of a job and it was STATE POLICY. It’s matter of historic fact and there isn’t shit you can do about it. You’re no better than those holocaust deniers out there.

Boring? That’s rich. Your trumping a stance that has no evidence. Well I guess a lot of people consider real actual facts boring, usually school children. I guess it’s more exciting to make shit up out of thin ass air.

Considering this whole conversation was a diviversion from another discussion, another stance for which you have no evidence, the irony of your statement is indeed rich.

It can and it was. Here’s a link that also shows that, written by an atheist who isn’t a complete idiot:
http://warforscience.wordpress.com/2010/04/11/state-atheism/

It’s not a ‘non-belief’, it’s a rearrangement of the facts to support a non-suppotable position. You cannot advertise non-belief, you cannot propagandize non-belief, but it’s done and it’s trumpeted as simply reasonable. Maybe for people without a brain.

The fact that you don’t understand shit ain’t my fault. I never said that his murder of religious driven by his ‘non-belief’ was his only crimes. He did that and much, much more. It doesn’t take away that he did it. Doesn’t take away that he turned chruches in the Museums of Atheism. How do you have a museum of non-belief anyway?

Weird since their own statements contradict that. Lenin and Stalin, Stalin wasn’t the only bad guy…

If your premise is that it’s a non-belief why would you have the ‘League of Militant Atheists’? Militants supporting a non-belief? That would be just plain stupid, unless it is in fact, a belief. And it is for you believe it.

Why they occurred is because they were trying to get rid of religion all together by any means possible. That’s what they stated, that’s what history says and anything beyond that is pure speculation without a scintilla of fact. You have YET to present a single fact supporting your magical assertion that this shit didn’t happen. Your living in fantasy land. [/quote]

Of course that’s what they stated as their resoning, because that’s what they wanted to do, they wanted to rid the nation of all religious institutions. LOL…you’re too fucking stupid to know what points I agree with you on.

WHY were they trying to rid the nation of religious institutions? What purpose would that serve a tyrant not wanting to be rivaled by any other institution of power and influence, and demanding totall servility to the state?

If you’d do some thinking on this, you’ll see it. Then again, perhaps you won’t.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Pat wrote:
These are facts. The links prove it, you’re just plain FUCKED here. Like usual you got nothing but some wishful thinking and some minority of leftist, idiots attempting history rewrites. Like I said, my family lived it, you cannot spin that shit.
Why don’t you ask Dr. Matt how tolerated religion was in the USSR, even in the “good times” prior to the collapse?[/quote]

Your understanding of the facts is just pathetic. Yes these atrocities occurred, I’m not arguing this. But it does not changed the base reasoning for it. It doesn’t matter what your family went through, doesn’t do a fucking ting for the fact that the base reasoning for what happened was power, control, and political/religious dogma. This is where YOU’RE fucked, because you cannot escape this fact. [/quote]

So your saying you understand the reasoning behind all of this, beyond the stated facts? Now that’s funny.
Somebody says they did something for a particular reason and all you can comeback with is, “That’s not the reason they did it”…[/quote]

Yes, I do understand why he did what he did, it’s you who miserably fails in that regard.

Show me where Stalin was quoted as saying that all he did was in the name of atheism, I’d like to see it. Now, I’m sure you’ll find plenty of anti-religious quotes from him, but I’m wanting to see some quotes from him that shore up your assertation that atheism was the driving factor for all he did, and was “front and center” the resoning for his murders. Let’s see these quotes.
[/quote]
Call your ‘wah-mbulance’ ~
http://uncpress.unc.edu/browse/page/542

You do have to prove it. For reasons already stated. It’s not a non-bleif and so you wish it were and there are plenty of theistic arguments that you cannot disprove. If your going to contend your view point is the correct one, you damn fucking sure have to support it. You can believe what you want and keep it to yourself, but if your are going to argue your view point is right, you have to defend it, support it prove it. Not cop-out like you do so frequently. Cop-outs don’t prove anything other than your position is extremely weak and it’s getting no stronger.

I think you’ve already proven your a history denier and a moron. You don’t have to push the issue, we get it. You’re a fool.
You’re trying to assert crap that has no basis in fact what so ever. If so, let’s see them. Where are your facts?

Really, than why the League of Militant Atheists? Oh, I suppose they didn’t exist either.
http://www.presentpasts.info/article/view/pp.13/18

You are fucking dying here. Let’s try something new, present actual real facts to support your point because you’ve presented ZERO. For as many times as you called me stupid, you’d think you have at least one. The ONLY nimrods who support your view are atheist propaganda websites. I keep hitting them. Not a single, minutely reputable source with touch your idiotic assertions with a ten foot cattle prod.
Got proof? Got facts? Thought not.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]colt44 wrote:
Pat, not really tryin to get into anything, but the link you provided is quite biased

http://scholarscorner.com/home

“Uncovering A Biblical Worldview”
“Viewing Contemporary Culture Through the Eyes of Christ.”

I havent followed along much with you and Big Flamer, but I would think you could use something a bit more “scholarly” :)[/quote]

You find one bias link out of all I provided? I can say I have been deliberately avoiding biased links but if one sneaked through, oops.
Now the point is simple, the fact that atheist ideology doesn’t kill is pure bullshit and there are reams and reams of documentation proving that not only that it did, but still does. I haven’t even gotten to the current religious persecutions in North Korea.
There is no evidence, outside of extremely biased atheist propaganda sources that support the notion that it wasn’t atheist ideology. That is why flamer cannot produce any evidence to support his view. They’re all extremely biased.

I don’t see his ego letting it go though, no matter how much evidence I provide, he will have to finish by calling me names and saying I am wrong, just 'cause. [/quote]

You’ve absolutely failed, in every regard, to support your calim that atheism was the central driving force behind Stalin’s atrocities. All you’ve provided for was proof that those atrocities occurred, something I do not dispute. You’r claim is false, as I’ve proved again and again.

You’re a fucking delusional clown, and I’ve enjoyed watching you devolve into a ranting religious nut job once again. Thanks for the fun, Patty cakes. I’ll give you the last crazy word in this discussion between you and I, as it’s plain to see that YOU’RE ego wouldn’t have it any other way. [/quote]

This is all you got? Come on big boy, you can come up with better insults than that. Did you even make it through middle school?

Let’s see have facts, and you don’t. Seems to me the only delusional clown here is you. You can’t back your shit up all you can do is rant. If you can’t back your shit up, you don’t really actually have a point.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Sure it does, but that does not mean that atheism was the “front and center, driving factor”.
[/quote]

Bullshit. Wishing it weren’t so, is not the same as it not being so.

Just because Stalin targeted the institutions of the religious, does not mean that it was “done in the name of atheism”, that’s lazy reasoning. Stop being so lazy, and think about it.

LOL @ your link.
[/quote]
What does it mean? It made him horny? LOL at your lack of any proof of your points. If all you got is a bulshit flag, then you got nothing.

You have no point, you’ve failed to make one, you just steered the conversation to what you believe is a more defensible point for your weak position. Deluding yourself on facts doesn’t make a point. Not only that, you previously said and repeated this statement wasn’t true anyway. It’s fanatics and nuts of all kinds.
[/quote]

I’ve successfully made my point over and over again; not my fault that your intellectual laziness disallows you to recognize it. Or perhaps I’m giving you too much credit in that regard, and you’re just too stupid to see it?

Which one is it, Patty Cakes? Intellectual laziness, or simple stupididty? Let me know when you get around to it.
[/quote]

You’ve susccessfully made a point?! LOL! Where? If anything you have been engaged in a massive FAIL from the start. Your started with a losing point and went down hill from there.
You refusing to look at the reams of evidence that shows that atheist idology and state policy was the driving force for many, murders, tortures, and exiles is pure unadulterated stupidity on your part.
Calling me names, flamey, will not make your invalid point any more valid. And the only people here more intellectually lazy than you are HH and tirib.

The point isn’t whether it succeeded, the point was the deliberate targeting of religion and religious peoples due to non-compliance with state atheism. This happened, it’s a matter of historic fact, you have nothing to back up your points and I do. The dumbass is you. Complete and total and nothing can save you.

You wouldn’t know logic if it kicked you in the balls.
Here’s more on your pal Stalin.

http://www.historydoctor.net/Advanced%20Placement%20European%20History/Notes/soviet_union_under_stalin.htm[/quote]

You avoided the question. Did Stalin also target fellow Communists? Murder and imprison them? Does this make him a militant capitalist? Do answer…

Aaaaaaand, I’m not arguing with you about the facts surrounding what Stalin did. I’m fully aware of what he did, and I’m not disputing them. I’m just pointing out to you, your failed, simplistic, biased interpretations of those facts.
[/quote]
You clearly aren’t “fully aware” of what he did, you can’t be because nobody is totally sure at the depths of his cruelty. The fact that he murdered others, does not invalidate the fact the he murdered thousands of religious because they were religious and no other reason. Ignoring the facts, doesn’t make them disappear it just makes you delusional at a very profound level.

We the stated reason is to purge religion and the religious, when they murder and send you to gulags because you are not an atheist, it very much is the driving force. It’s not just Stalin, Lenin did a heck of a job and it was STATE POLICY. It’s matter of historic fact and there isn’t shit you can do about it. You’re no better than those holocaust deniers out there.

Boring? That’s rich. Your trumping a stance that has no evidence. Well I guess a lot of people consider real actual facts boring, usually school children. I guess it’s more exciting to make shit up out of thin ass air.

Considering this whole conversation was a diviversion from another discussion, another stance for which you have no evidence, the irony of your statement is indeed rich.

It can and it was. Here’s a link that also shows that, written by an atheist who isn’t a complete idiot:
http://warforscience.wordpress.com/2010/04/11/state-atheism/

It’s not a ‘non-belief’, it’s a rearrangement of the facts to support a non-suppotable position. You cannot advertise non-belief, you cannot propagandize non-belief, but it’s done and it’s trumpeted as simply reasonable. Maybe for people without a brain.

The fact that you don’t understand shit ain’t my fault. I never said that his murder of religious driven by his ‘non-belief’ was his only crimes. He did that and much, much more. It doesn’t take away that he did it. Doesn’t take away that he turned chruches in the Museums of Atheism. How do you have a museum of non-belief anyway?

Weird since their own statements contradict that. Lenin and Stalin, Stalin wasn’t the only bad guy…

If your premise is that it’s a non-belief why would you have the ‘League of Militant Atheists’? Militants supporting a non-belief? That would be just plain stupid, unless it is in fact, a belief. And it is for you believe it.

Why they occurred is because they were trying to get rid of religion all together by any means possible. That’s what they stated, that’s what history says and anything beyond that is pure speculation without a scintilla of fact. You have YET to present a single fact supporting your magical assertion that this shit didn’t happen. Your living in fantasy land. [/quote]

Of course that’s what they stated as their resoning, because that’s what they wanted to do, they wanted to rid the nation of all religious institutions. LOL…you’re too fucking stupid to know what points I agree with you on.

WHY were they trying to rid the nation of religious institutions? What purpose would that serve a tyrant not wanting to be rivaled by any other institution of power and influence, and demanding totall servility to the state?

If you’d do some thinking on this, you’ll see it. Then again, perhaps you won’t.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Pat wrote:
These are facts. The links prove it, you’re just plain FUCKED here. Like usual you got nothing but some wishful thinking and some minority of leftist, idiots attempting history rewrites. Like I said, my family lived it, you cannot spin that shit.
Why don’t you ask Dr. Matt how tolerated religion was in the USSR, even in the “good times” prior to the collapse?[/quote]

Your understanding of the facts is just pathetic. Yes these atrocities occurred, I’m not arguing this. But it does not changed the base reasoning for it. It doesn’t matter what your family went through, doesn’t do a fucking ting for the fact that the base reasoning for what happened was power, control, and political/religious dogma. This is where YOU’RE fucked, because you cannot escape this fact. [/quote]

So your saying you understand the reasoning behind all of this, beyond the stated facts? Now that’s funny.
Somebody says they did something for a particular reason and all you can comeback with is, “That’s not the reason they did it”…[/quote]

Yes, I do understand why he did what he did, it’s you who miserably fails in that regard.

Show me where Stalin was quoted as saying that all he did was in the name of atheism, I’d like to see it. Now, I’m sure you’ll find plenty of anti-religious quotes from him, but I’m wanting to see some quotes from him that shore up your assertation that atheism was the driving factor for all he did, and was “front and center” the resoning for his murders. Let’s see these quotes.
[/quote]
Call your ‘wah-mbulance’ ~
http://uncpress.unc.edu/browse/page/542

You do have to prove it. For reasons already stated. It’s not a non-bleif and so you wish it were and there are plenty of theistic arguments that you cannot disprove. If your going to contend your view point is the correct one, you damn fucking sure have to support it. You can believe what you want and keep it to yourself, but if your are going to argue your view point is right, you have to defend it, support it prove it. Not cop-out like you do so frequently. Cop-outs don’t prove anything other than your position is extremely weak and it’s getting no stronger.

I think you’ve already proven your a history denier and a moron. You don’t have to push the issue, we get it. You’re a fool.
You’re trying to assert crap that has no basis in fact what so ever. If so, let’s see them. Where are your facts?

Really, than why the League of Militant Atheists? Oh, I suppose they didn’t exist either.
http://www.presentpasts.info/article/view/pp.13/18

You are fucking dying here. Let’s try something new, present actual real facts to support your point because you’ve presented ZERO. For as many times as you called me stupid, you’d think you have at least one. The ONLY nimrods who support your view are atheist propaganda websites. I keep hitting them. Not a single, minutely reputable source with touch your idiotic assertions with a ten foot cattle prod.
Got proof? Got facts? Thought not.[/quote]

all aboard the quote train choo choo

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Sure it does, but that does not mean that atheism was the “front and center, driving factor”.
[/quote]

Bullshit. Wishing it weren’t so, is not the same as it not being so.

Just because Stalin targeted the institutions of the religious, does not mean that it was “done in the name of atheism”, that’s lazy reasoning. Stop being so lazy, and think about it.

LOL @ your link.
[/quote]
What does it mean? It made him horny? LOL at your lack of any proof of your points. If all you got is a bulshit flag, then you got nothing.

You have no point, you’ve failed to make one, you just steered the conversation to what you believe is a more defensible point for your weak position. Deluding yourself on facts doesn’t make a point. Not only that, you previously said and repeated this statement wasn’t true anyway. It’s fanatics and nuts of all kinds.
[/quote]

I’ve successfully made my point over and over again; not my fault that your intellectual laziness disallows you to recognize it. Or perhaps I’m giving you too much credit in that regard, and you’re just too stupid to see it?

Which one is it, Patty Cakes? Intellectual laziness, or simple stupididty? Let me know when you get around to it.
[/quote]

You’ve susccessfully made a point?! LOL! Where? If anything you have been engaged in a massive FAIL from the start. Your started with a losing point and went down hill from there.
You refusing to look at the reams of evidence that shows that atheist idology and state policy was the driving force for many, murders, tortures, and exiles is pure unadulterated stupidity on your part.
Calling me names, flamey, will not make your invalid point any more valid. And the only people here more intellectually lazy than you are HH and tirib.

The point isn’t whether it succeeded, the point was the deliberate targeting of religion and religious peoples due to non-compliance with state atheism. This happened, it’s a matter of historic fact, you have nothing to back up your points and I do. The dumbass is you. Complete and total and nothing can save you.

You wouldn’t know logic if it kicked you in the balls.
Here’s more on your pal Stalin.

http://www.historydoctor.net/Advanced%20Placement%20European%20History/Notes/soviet_union_under_stalin.htm[/quote]

You avoided the question. Did Stalin also target fellow Communists? Murder and imprison them? Does this make him a militant capitalist? Do answer…

Aaaaaaand, I’m not arguing with you about the facts surrounding what Stalin did. I’m fully aware of what he did, and I’m not disputing them. I’m just pointing out to you, your failed, simplistic, biased interpretations of those facts.
[/quote]
You clearly aren’t “fully aware” of what he did, you can’t be because nobody is totally sure at the depths of his cruelty. The fact that he murdered others, does not invalidate the fact the he murdered thousands of religious because they were religious and no other reason. Ignoring the facts, doesn’t make them disappear it just makes you delusional at a very profound level.

We the stated reason is to purge religion and the religious, when they murder and send you to gulags because you are not an atheist, it very much is the driving force. It’s not just Stalin, Lenin did a heck of a job and it was STATE POLICY. It’s matter of historic fact and there isn’t shit you can do about it. You’re no better than those holocaust deniers out there.

Boring? That’s rich. Your trumping a stance that has no evidence. Well I guess a lot of people consider real actual facts boring, usually school children. I guess it’s more exciting to make shit up out of thin ass air.

Considering this whole conversation was a diviversion from another discussion, another stance for which you have no evidence, the irony of your statement is indeed rich.

It can and it was. Here’s a link that also shows that, written by an atheist who isn’t a complete idiot:
http://warforscience.wordpress.com/2010/04/11/state-atheism/

It’s not a ‘non-belief’, it’s a rearrangement of the facts to support a non-suppotable position. You cannot advertise non-belief, you cannot propagandize non-belief, but it’s done and it’s trumpeted as simply reasonable. Maybe for people without a brain.

The fact that you don’t understand shit ain’t my fault. I never said that his murder of religious driven by his ‘non-belief’ was his only crimes. He did that and much, much more. It doesn’t take away that he did it. Doesn’t take away that he turned chruches in the Museums of Atheism. How do you have a museum of non-belief anyway?

Weird since their own statements contradict that. Lenin and Stalin, Stalin wasn’t the only bad guy…

If your premise is that it’s a non-belief why would you have the ‘League of Militant Atheists’? Militants supporting a non-belief? That would be just plain stupid, unless it is in fact, a belief. And it is for you believe it.

Why they occurred is because they were trying to get rid of religion all together by any means possible. That’s what they stated, that’s what history says and anything beyond that is pure speculation without a scintilla of fact. You have YET to present a single fact supporting your magical assertion that this shit didn’t happen. Your living in fantasy land. [/quote]

Of course that’s what they stated as their resoning, because that’s what they wanted to do, they wanted to rid the nation of all religious institutions. LOL…you’re too fucking stupid to know what points I agree with you on.

WHY were they trying to rid the nation of religious institutions? What purpose would that serve a tyrant not wanting to be rivaled by any other institution of power and influence, and demanding totall servility to the state?

If you’d do some thinking on this, you’ll see it. Then again, perhaps you won’t.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Pat wrote:
These are facts. The links prove it, you’re just plain FUCKED here. Like usual you got nothing but some wishful thinking and some minority of leftist, idiots attempting history rewrites. Like I said, my family lived it, you cannot spin that shit.
Why don’t you ask Dr. Matt how tolerated religion was in the USSR, even in the “good times” prior to the collapse?[/quote]

Your understanding of the facts is just pathetic. Yes these atrocities occurred, I’m not arguing this. But it does not changed the base reasoning for it. It doesn’t matter what your family went through, doesn’t do a fucking ting for the fact that the base reasoning for what happened was power, control, and political/religious dogma. This is where YOU’RE fucked, because you cannot escape this fact. [/quote]

So your saying you understand the reasoning behind all of this, beyond the stated facts? Now that’s funny.
Somebody says they did something for a particular reason and all you can comeback with is, “That’s not the reason they did it”…[/quote]

Yes, I do understand why he did what he did, it’s you who miserably fails in that regard.

Show me where Stalin was quoted as saying that all he did was in the name of atheism, I’d like to see it. Now, I’m sure you’ll find plenty of anti-religious quotes from him, but I’m wanting to see some quotes from him that shore up your assertation that atheism was the driving factor for all he did, and was “front and center” the resoning for his murders. Let’s see these quotes.
[/quote]
Call your ‘wah-mbulance’ ~
http://uncpress.unc.edu/browse/page/542

You do have to prove it. For reasons already stated. It’s not a non-bleif and so you wish it were and there are plenty of theistic arguments that you cannot disprove. If your going to contend your view point is the correct one, you damn fucking sure have to support it. You can believe what you want and keep it to yourself, but if your are going to argue your view point is right, you have to defend it, support it prove it. Not cop-out like you do so frequently. Cop-outs don’t prove anything other than your position is extremely weak and it’s getting no stronger.

I think you’ve already proven your a history denier and a moron. You don’t have to push the issue, we get it. You’re a fool.
You’re trying to assert crap that has no basis in fact what so ever. If so, let’s see them. Where are your facts?

Really, than why the League of Militant Atheists? Oh, I suppose they didn’t exist either.
http://www.presentpasts.info/article/view/pp.13/18

You are fucking dying here. Let’s try something new, present actual real facts to support your point because you’ve presented ZERO. For as many times as you called me stupid, you’d think you have at least one. The ONLY nimrods who support your view are atheist propaganda websites. I keep hitting them. Not a single, minutely reputable source with touch your idiotic assertions with a ten foot cattle prod.
Got proof? Got facts? Thought not.[/quote]

all aboard the quote train choo choo[/quote]

It takes up between 1/4 and a 1/5 of a page. It’s gotta be a record!

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:<<< It takes up between 1/4 and a 1/5 of a page. It’s gotta be a record! [/quote]A meaningless idiosyncratic pet peeve of mine. It irritates me when people post 12 quotes deep to say six words about the last sentence of the last quote. To me it’s kinda like handing somebody an atlas of the world to give them directions to the nearest gas station.

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

all aboard the quote train choo choo

It takes up between 1/4 and a 1/5 of a page. It’s gotta be a record! [/quote]

The real feat was keeping all the quote tags strait… :slight_smile:

[quote]Pat wrote::

[quote]bigflamer wrote::
Just because Stalin targeted the institutions of the religious, does not mean that it was “done in the name of atheism”, that’s lazy reasoning. Stop being so lazy, and think about it.

LOL @ your link.[/quote]

What does it mean? It made him horny? LOL at your lack of any proof of your points. If all you got is a bulshit flag, then you got nothing.[/quote]

Horny? Interesting response, Pat.

I’m reluctant to do the heavy lifting for you on this, but I’ll help you out a wee bit with a question: What sort of political involvement would lead Stalin to view the ROC as a political threat? Because we’re back to that being a driving reason for his actions against the church.

Now get to work and come back to me with a better understanding.

[quote]Pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote::
I’ve successfully made my point over and over again; not my fault that your intellectual laziness disallows you to recognize it. Or perhaps I’m giving you too much credit in that regard, and you’re just too stupid to see it?

Which one is it, Patty Cakes? Intellectual laziness, or simple stupididty? Let me know when you get around to it.[/quote]

You’ve successfully made a point?! LOL! Where? If anything you have been engaged in a massive FAIL from the start. Your started with a losing point and went down hill from there.
You refusing to look at the reams of evidence that shows that atheist ideology and state policy was the driving force for many, murders, tortures, and exiles is pure unadulterated stupidity on your part.
Calling me names, flamey, will not make your invalid point any more valid. And the only people here more intellectually lazy than you are HH and tirib.[/quote]

Pure AND unadulterated stupidity, on MY part?!? Oh my…whatever shall I do? How will I carry on?

Truth is, you’ve not shown ANY evidence for atheism for the sake of atheism as the driving force behind the staggering atrocities of Stalin. What you’ve done is offer up your incorrect conclusions heavily influenced by your religious bias. Yes, your reasoning is LAZY.

Another summary of your lazy logic:
[i]

  1. Stalin was an atheist
  2. Stalin rose to power with ruthless aggression
  3. Stalin targeted the church, and murdered many of it’s leaders and followers in his rise to power.
  4. Atheism therefore, was responsible for the atrocities of Stalin.[/i]

Now, tell me why that is nothing more than failed logic, filled with intellectual laziness.

[quote]Pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
You avoided the question. Did Stalin also target fellow Communists? Murder and imprison them? Does this make him a militant capitalist? Do answer…

Aaaaaaand, I’m not arguing with you about the facts surrounding what Stalin did. I’m fully aware of what he did, and I’m not disputing them. I’m just pointing out to you, your failed, simplistic, biased interpretations of those facts.[/quote]

You clearly aren’t “fully aware” of what he did, you can’t be because nobody is totally sure at the depths of his cruelty. The fact that he murdered others, does not invalidate the fact the he murdered thousands of religious because they were religious and no other reason. Ignoring the facts, doesn’t make them disappear it just makes you delusional at a very profound level.
[/quote]

Ahhh, but I’ve not ignored your facts; and have gone out of my way to agree with them. It’s your conclusion that’s failing so miserably. You want soooo bad for atheism to be the evil here, that you fail to see the truth. Oh, and do a count of the insults traded in this conversation and you will come up with the only category you’re winning in this thread. You’re clearly winning THAT contest.

I’ll say it as many times as necessary; Atheism doesn’t kill, fanaticism, dogma (be it religious OR political), and blind faith kills. You continually fail to understand atheism; non-belief does not kill.

[quote]Pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
SIGH You’re getting boring as shit with this tripe. Yes he killed lots and lots and lots of the religious, but that does not mean that atheism was the driving force. Destroying the institution of the church, and it’s power base was; try to wrap your head around that.
[/quote]

We the stated reason is to purge religion and the religious, when they murder and send you to gulags because you are not an atheist, it very much is the driving force. It’s not just Stalin, Lenin did a heck of a job and it was STATE POLICY. It’s matter of historic fact and there isn’t shit you can do about it. You’re no better than those holocaust deniers out there.

Boring? That’s rich. Your trumping a stance that has no evidence. Well I guess a lot of people consider real actual facts boring, usually school children. I guess it’s more exciting to make shit up out of thin ass air.[/quote]

I’ve made nothing up, and it’s amusing to witness how angry you respond to all of this. Your failed biased argument is highlighting your lack of knowledge regarding the relevant history.

What political role did the church play in Russian politics? Was the failed politics of the ROC also to blame in this? Did the ROC back the wrong guy/party in the revolution, and pay the political price for it?

You claim only facts that are obvious and true, however your facts have done nothing to shore up your position that atheism was to balm for what Stalin did. NOTHING. All they do is shore up that he was an atheist, and that he killed lots of people.

Your conclusions are still wrong, and no amount of whining and name calling on YOUR part can change that.

[quote]Pat wrote:
Call your ‘wah-mbulance’ ~
http://uncpress.unc.edu/browse/page/542[/quote]

I ask you for Stalin quotes, and you give me a quote from Trotsky and one from Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn; LOL…classic.

You ARE aware that these men were political rivals of Stalin and their communist/Marxist dogma, right? You’re aware that they were both viewed as "enemies of the state, right? LOL…you just keep making my point for me.

Trotsky was exiled by Stalin, and later assassinated by Stalin. Solzhenitsyn was imprisoned and beaten by Stalin for his unflattering writing and other “crimes against the state”.

Sorry about your fail.

[quote]Pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
I don’t have to support my atheism, it’s folks like you that have to support your belief.[/quote]

You do have to prove it.[/quote]

No, I really don’t.

So what is it then that atheists believe in? What dogma? What belief system does an atheist hold?

Do I believe in not believing? LOL…you’re a funny guy.

Such as?

BINGO!

Now explain to me how a virgin birth works…

Golly, thank you! Oh, I promise I’ll keep my filthy atheism to myself, Pat; thank you for your permission!

LOL

Sweet! Is this where you prove to the world that not only is there a god, but he’s a christian god! Yay for the Christians! I am soooo looking forward to you proving with beyond a doubt facts that the christian god exists. After all, it’s YOU making the claim, so it should be you providing the proof, right?

So exciting!!

Yet your whole argument has been nothing but repetitive cop outs and lazy reasoning.

[quote]Pat wrote:
Really, than why the League of Militant Atheists? Oh, I suppose they didn’t exist either.
http://www.presentpasts.info/article/view/pp.13/18[/quote]

You mean the The Soviet League of the Militant Godless? The political arm of the communist party? From your link:

[i]Throughout the Soviet period, direct attacks on religious institutions were just one part of the struggle. Quite as important (and more interesting from our point of view) were the propaganda efforts of the Party. These comprised a range of techniques: public lectures and debates, booklets, films, radio and television, plays, “houses of atheism” and museums (Struve 1967, 276). The organization the Party created to lead the struggle was The Soviet League of the Militant Godless. In his fascinating study, Daniel Perris shows that despite its nominal membership in 1933 of 5.5m (2m more that the Party itself) in fact the League was “largely a house of cards - a nationwide Potemkin village of atheism” (Perris 1998, 9). More than that, its series of campaigns never really engaged with the promotion of atheism, but concentrated on criticizing and attacking the institutions of belief: clergy, churches and religious holidays. Even there it was ineffective: it was the power of the State, rather than any successful persuasion of the masses, that closed churches, persecuted clergy and abolished the sacred calendar.

The Soviet anti-religion campaign mostly had little to do with “scientific atheism”. Not least because few cadres had the education to be able to lead such a campaign, most propaganda activity was devoted to exposing the tricks of self-interested clergy, attacking the “absurdities” of superstition, and contrasting old Holy Russia with the new Soviet society of industrialization, electrification and social justice.[/i]

[quote]Pat wrote:
You are fucking dying here. Let’s try something new, present actual real facts to support your point because you’ve presented ZERO. For as many times as you called me stupid, you’d think you have at least one. The ONLY nimrods who support your view are atheist propaganda websites. I keep hitting them. Not a single, minutely reputable source with touch your idiotic assertions with a ten foot cattle prod.
Got proof? Got facts? Thought not.[/quote]

I might remind you here that it was YOU who made the claim that “atheism was at the core of the atrocities that occurred under Stalin”, and yet you have miserably failed in every regard to back up that position. All you do is drone on about how many Stain killed, and that he was an atheist. Well,…no shit.

But that does not back up your position, now does it? You need to prove that atheism was the central driving force behind Stalin’s atrocities, and not fanaticism. I’ve provided for you why it was political dogma, the lust for complete control/power, and the resulting fanaticism that killed. All you’ve done is repeat ad nauseam the same irrelevant points.

Sorry Pat, but people don’t kill other people in the name of “no gods”.

Some interesting reading for you, Pat.

[i]Similarly, communism certainly inspired people to act and gave them motivations to do certain things, but atheism â?? which is the absence of a belief and not even a belief itself â?? did not. The assumption that people in Russia and China were killed merely on account of atheism is based upon two other myths: first, that atheism is itself some sort of philosophy or belief system which can motivate people, and second that atheism is somehow interchangeable with the actual belief system of communism. It also pretends that all the various elements of communist totalitarianism were irrelevant to what happened â?? which is utter nonsense.

The aforementioned parallel explains why this response is not one which religious theists can use to deny their religion’s responsibility for violence in the past. Atheism and theism may not themselves be sufficient to justify violence and murder (or good behavior, for that matter), but belief systems which incorporate them are more than sufficient. Communism (or at least certain forms of it) can be blamed for communist violence; Christianity (or at least certain forms of it) can also be blamed for Christian violence. As a belief system with specific doctrines that were openly held up as justifying or sanctioning violence, religion must be held responsible for the violence committed in its name.

Whether theism can be slightly more culpable than atheism is a matter of dispute. Not being any belief at all, atheism can’t motivate anyone in any direction to do anything. Theism is a belief, however, so at least the potential for some sort of motivation in some direction exists. It’s been argued, for example, that monotheism is inherently more prone to violence because of the way it tends to be exclusivist â?? unlike polytheism, which tends to be more tolerant of cultural and religious differences. [/i]

Atheism and Stalin

[i]…Yet, Stalin was an atheist. He was very clear about that. So should his subsequent actions as the dictator of Soviet Russia be pinned exclusively to his atheism? The answer is no. Why? Because there is no evidence for it, and if you are an atheist, evidence is important to belief, unlike the Christian belief system.

Why was he an atheist, and to what use did he put his personal atheism? He was a communist first, a devotee of Marxim, who was raised as a Christian, and even studied in the seminary to be a priest. He realized how important, and how intertwined, religion was in the lives of the Russian people. He also knew that for the communist state to succeed, it could have no competition for the hearts and minds of the people from any other source. In Stalinâ??s communism, the state was everything. Religion had to go. Why? Not because he didnâ??t personally believe in god, but because god (or more correctly, godâ??s institution here on earth) interfered with his ability to control Russia. So the state became officially atheistic.

The underpinnings of atheism are freethought. Thatâ??s FREE THOUGHT. Thought that is free. Free thinkers are able to make up their owns minds about their beliefs; beliefs are not imposed by the state on free thinkers. Atheism, as we know it and advocate it on blogs such as this one, is anathema to communism, Stalinism, Bolshevism, Polpotism (OK, I made that word up) or any other â??ismâ?? that relies on state centered dogma imposed from above. Atheism in Stalinâ??s Russia, then, was a mere tool used by Stalin, for the greater good of the state, imposed on the structure of society. Itâ??s effect was to strip away the power of the church to oppose his power. It was not a mere lack of belief in gods. Stalin could care less about the individual beliefs of the peasant, his focus was on destroying organized religion. Religion still flourished unofficially in Stalinist Russia, he actually reopened the churches during WWII in order to motivate the people to fight, and religion continues to this day.

No one died because they refused to embrace atheism. Many died because they were deemed enemies of the state. Religious leaders may have been among the executed, but not because they refused to become atheists, but because they were viewed as holdovers of the old order that would try to oppose the state… [/i]

http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/hitlerstalin.html

Hitler, Stalin and Atheism

[i]Note that in no case is atheism central to the building of these dogmatic positions. [d]

Indeed to the founder of communist doctrines, Karl Marx (1818-1883), atheism, was just a stage on the path to communism, and it was ultimately “unreal” and “no longer needed” by socialism and communism. [9] This is what Karl Marx himself said about atheism:

Atheism as a denial of this unreality; has no longer any meaning, for atheism is a denial of God and tries to assert through this negation the existence of man; but socialism as such no longer needs this mediation…[10] [Emphasis added]

It is important to pause for a moment and consider this statement carefully. If Karl Marx, the intellectual founder of Marxism and communism, repudiated atheism as meaningless and no longer needed, how then could atheism be considered the cause of the atrocities committed under communism?.[/i]

Hey Pat, you gonna get around to starting that “god does/does not exist thread”? I thought you wanted to discuss that?

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Some interesting reading for you, Pat.

[i]Similarly, communism certainly inspired people to act and gave them motivations to do certain things, but atheism â?? which is the absence of a belief and not even a belief itself â?? did not. The assumption that people in Russia and China were killed merely on account of atheism is based upon two other myths: first, that atheism is itself some sort of philosophy or belief system which can motivate people, and second that atheism is somehow interchangeable with the actual belief system of communism. It also pretends that all the various elements of communist totalitarianism were irrelevant to what happened â?? which is utter nonsense.

The aforementioned parallel explains why this response is not one which religious theists can use to deny their religion’s responsibility for violence in the past. Atheism and theism may not themselves be sufficient to justify violence and murder (or good behavior, for that matter), but belief systems which incorporate them are more than sufficient. Communism (or at least certain forms of it) can be blamed for communist violence; Christianity (or at least certain forms of it) can also be blamed for Christian violence. As a belief system with specific doctrines that were openly held up as justifying or sanctioning violence, religion must be held responsible for the violence committed in its name.

Whether theism can be slightly more culpable than atheism is a matter of dispute. Not being any belief at all, atheism can’t motivate anyone in any direction to do anything. Theism is a belief, however, so at least the potential for some sort of motivation in some direction exists. It’s been argued, for example, that monotheism is inherently more prone to violence because of the way it tends to be exclusivist â?? unlike polytheism, which tends to be more tolerant of cultural and religious differences. [/i]

Atheism and Stalin

[i]…Yet, Stalin was an atheist. He was very clear about that. So should his subsequent actions as the dictator of Soviet Russia be pinned exclusively to his atheism? The answer is no. Why? Because there is no evidence for it, and if you are an atheist, evidence is important to belief, unlike the Christian belief system.

Why was he an atheist, and to what use did he put his personal atheism? He was a communist first, a devotee of Marxim, who was raised as a Christian, and even studied in the seminary to be a priest. He realized how important, and how intertwined, religion was in the lives of the Russian people. He also knew that for the communist state to succeed, it could have no competition for the hearts and minds of the people from any other source. In Stalinâ??s communism, the state was everything. Religion had to go. Why? Not because he didnâ??t personally believe in god, but because god (or more correctly, godâ??s institution here on earth) interfered with his ability to control Russia. So the state became officially atheistic.

The underpinnings of atheism are freethought. Thatâ??s FREE THOUGHT. Thought that is free. Free thinkers are able to make up their owns minds about their beliefs; beliefs are not imposed by the state on free thinkers. Atheism, as we know it and advocate it on blogs such as this one, is anathema to communism, Stalinism, Bolshevism, Polpotism (OK, I made that word up) or any other â??ismâ?? that relies on state centered dogma imposed from above. Atheism in Stalinâ??s Russia, then, was a mere tool used by Stalin, for the greater good of the state, imposed on the structure of society. Itâ??s effect was to strip away the power of the church to oppose his power. It was not a mere lack of belief in gods. Stalin could care less about the individual beliefs of the peasant, his focus was on destroying organized religion. Religion still flourished unofficially in Stalinist Russia, he actually reopened the churches during WWII in order to motivate the people to fight, and religion continues to this day.

No one died because they refused to embrace atheism. Many died because they were deemed enemies of the state. Religious leaders may have been among the executed, but not because they refused to become atheists, but because they were viewed as holdovers of the old order that would try to oppose the state… [/i]

http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/hitlerstalin.html

Hitler, Stalin and Atheism

[i]Note that in no case is atheism central to the building of these dogmatic positions. [d]

Indeed to the founder of communist doctrines, Karl Marx (1818-1883), atheism, was just a stage on the path to communism, and it was ultimately “unreal” and “no longer needed” by socialism and communism. [9] This is what Karl Marx himself said about atheism:

Atheism as a denial of this unreality; has no longer any meaning, for atheism is a denial of God and tries to assert through this negation the existence of man; but socialism as such no longer needs this mediation…[10] [Emphasis added]

It is important to pause for a moment and consider this statement carefully. If Karl Marx, the intellectual founder of Marxism and communism, repudiated atheism as meaningless and no longer needed, how then could atheism be considered the cause of the atrocities committed under communism?.[/i][/quote]

LOL! All your shit is from athiest propaganda websites. Got any unbiased sources? Thought not. Run along silly. I knew you didn’t have shit.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Hey Pat, you gonna get around to starting that “god does/does not exist thread”? I thought you wanted to discuss that?
[/quote]

That’s what we were discussing, to your hitler and pol pot stupidity. I don’t see where you get off telling me what to do, anyway. Most religious threads are started by atheists anyway, I don’t have to lift a finger. Also, it’s been done to death.
If you want me to kick your ass in another thread, go nuts. I may or may not bother.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Some interesting reading for you, Pat.

[i]Similarly, communism certainly inspired people to act and gave them motivations to do certain things, but atheism �¢?? which is the absence of a belief and not even a belief itself �¢?? did not. The assumption that people in Russia and China were killed merely on account of atheism is based upon two other myths: first, that atheism is itself some sort of philosophy or belief system which can motivate people, and second that atheism is somehow interchangeable with the actual belief system of communism. It also pretends that all the various elements of communist totalitarianism were irrelevant to what happened �¢?? which is utter nonsense.

The aforementioned parallel explains why this response is not one which religious theists can use to deny their religion’s responsibility for violence in the past. Atheism and theism may not themselves be sufficient to justify violence and murder (or good behavior, for that matter), but belief systems which incorporate them are more than sufficient. Communism (or at least certain forms of it) can be blamed for communist violence; Christianity (or at least certain forms of it) can also be blamed for Christian violence. As a belief system with specific doctrines that were openly held up as justifying or sanctioning violence, religion must be held responsible for the violence committed in its name.

Whether theism can be slightly more culpable than atheism is a matter of dispute. Not being any belief at all, atheism can’t motivate anyone in any direction to do anything. Theism is a belief, however, so at least the potential for some sort of motivation in some direction exists. It’s been argued, for example, that monotheism is inherently more prone to violence because of the way it tends to be exclusivist Ã?¢?? unlike polytheism, which tends to be more tolerant of cultural and religious differences. [/i]

Atheism and Stalin

[i]…Yet, Stalin was an atheist. He was very clear about that. So should his subsequent actions as the dictator of Soviet Russia be pinned exclusively to his atheism? The answer is no. Why? Because there is no evidence for it, and if you are an atheist, evidence is important to belief, unlike the Christian belief system.

Why was he an atheist, and to what use did he put his personal atheism? He was a communist first, a devotee of Marxim, who was raised as a Christian, and even studied in the seminary to be a priest. He realized how important, and how intertwined, religion was in the lives of the Russian people. He also knew that for the communist state to succeed, it could have no competition for the hearts and minds of the people from any other source. In Stalin�¢??s communism, the state was everything. Religion had to go. Why? Not because he didn�¢??t personally believe in god, but because god (or more correctly, god�¢??s institution here on earth) interfered with his ability to control Russia. So the state became officially atheistic.

The underpinnings of atheism are freethought. That�¢??s FREE THOUGHT. Thought that is free. Free thinkers are able to make up their owns minds about their beliefs; beliefs are not imposed by the state on free thinkers. Atheism, as we know it and advocate it on blogs such as this one, is anathema to communism, Stalinism, Bolshevism, Polpotism (OK, I made that word up) or any other �¢??ism�¢?? that relies on state centered dogma imposed from above. Atheism in Stalin�¢??s Russia, then, was a mere tool used by Stalin, for the greater good of the state, imposed on the structure of society. It�¢??s effect was to strip away the power of the church to oppose his power. It was not a mere lack of belief in gods. Stalin could care less about the individual beliefs of the peasant, his focus was on destroying organized religion. Religion still flourished unofficially in Stalinist Russia, he actually reopened the churches during WWII in order to motivate the people to fight, and religion continues to this day.

No one died because they refused to embrace atheism. Many died because they were deemed enemies of the state. Religious leaders may have been among the executed, but not because they refused to become atheists, but because they were viewed as holdovers of the old order that would try to oppose the state… [/i]

http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/hitlerstalin.html

Hitler, Stalin and Atheism

[i]Note that in no case is atheism central to the building of these dogmatic positions. [d]

Indeed to the founder of communist doctrines, Karl Marx (1818-1883), atheism, was just a stage on the path to communism, and it was ultimately “unreal” and “no longer needed” by socialism and communism. [9] This is what Karl Marx himself said about atheism:

Atheism as a denial of this unreality; has no longer any meaning, for atheism is a denial of God and tries to assert through this negation the existence of man; but socialism as such no longer needs this mediation…[10] [Emphasis added]

It is important to pause for a moment and consider this statement carefully. If Karl Marx, the intellectual founder of Marxism and communism, repudiated atheism as meaningless and no longer needed, how then could atheism be considered the cause of the atrocities committed under communism?.[/i][/quote]

LOL! All your shit is from athiest propaganda websites. Got any unbiased sources? Thought not. Run along silly. I knew you didn’t have shit. [/quote]

Way to avoid the argument.