[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Sure it does, but that does not mean that atheism was the “front and center, driving factor”.
[/quote]
Bullshit. Wishing it weren’t so, is not the same as it not being so.
Just because Stalin targeted the institutions of the religious, does not mean that it was “done in the name of atheism”, that’s lazy reasoning. Stop being so lazy, and think about it.
LOL @ your link.
[quote]Pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Pat wrote:
It doesn’t really matter that Stalin used what was left of the orthodox church as a propaganda tool.[/quote]
Yes it does, it absolutely shores up my point that religion was used as a tool for controlling and manipulating the masses. This should be plain to see, even for you.
[/quote]
You have no point, you’ve failed to make one, you just steered the conversation to what you believe is a more defensible point for your weak position. Deluding yourself on facts doesn’t make a point. Not only that, you previously said and repeated this statement wasn’t true anyway. It’s fanatics and nuts of all kinds.
[/quote]
I’ve successfully made my point over and over again; not my fault that your intellectual laziness disallows you to recognize it. Or perhaps I’m giving you too much credit in that regard, and you’re just too stupid to see it?
Which one is it, Patty Cakes? Intellectual laziness, or simple stupididty? Let me know when you get around to it.
[quote]Pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Pat wrote:
The fact remains that Atheism was state imposed and the religious were murdered with impunity. No attempt to rewrite history is going to change that fact.[/quote]
No such thing as “state imposed atheism”, sorry if you cannot understand that. Nobody is changing history here, you’re simply failing to understand it as you filter it through a religious bias. [/quote]
Did you even go to school?
http://www.globalmuseumoncommunism.org/features/war_on_religion
You are just flat a history denier…[/quote]
Tell me how the state can force someone to be an atheist, I’d like to hear it.
Also on this note, you seem to be confused. First you say with great drama how “even at the point of a gun they can’t force someone to give up their belief”, but then you start your ranting about how the state somehow can impose, by force, a non belief.
Clear up your arguments, Pat, this makes you sound like a dumbass.
[quote]Pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Pat wrote:
If you read all of it, you would know what it says. Stalin was an atheist and an staunch one. He blew up churches, murdere
d religious people, starved them and put them in work camps.
It was Lenin during the Bolshevik Revolution who took 200 Christian School Children as a means to exterminate religion.[/quote]
Stalin also targeted communists; killed and murdered them, imprisoned them, etc. This did not make him a militant capitalist. I read that Mao played table tennis too, does this make him a table tennis killer? No, but using the “logic” you are, it would.
[/quote]
You wouldn’t know logic if it kicked you in the balls.
Here’s more on your pal Stalin.
You avoided the question. Did Stalin also target fellow Communists? Murder and imprison them? Does this make him a militant capitalist? Do answer…
Aaaaaaand, I’m not arguing with you about the facts surrounding what Stalin did. I’m fully aware of what he did, and I’m not disputing them. I’m just pointing out to you, your failed, simplistic, biased interpretations of those facts.
[quote]Pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Pat wrote:
Hey, it’s up to you if you want to defend the mother fucker to suit your own purposes, but facts are facts.[/quote]
Nice try, asshole. But I’m not defending him, I’m simply explaining to you the base reasoning for what occurred. [/quote]
By falsifying and rewriting history? By denying what has been written on in volumes? You know Stalin’s reasoning? He didn’t even trust his kids, but his motivations were clear. Not all his murders were religiously based, but many millions were. You can try to deny it, but your full of shit or really stupid if you do.[/quote]
SIGH You’re getting boring as shit with this tripe. Yes he killed lots and lots and lots of the religious, but that does not mean that atheism was the driving force. Destroying the institution of the church, and it’s power base was; try to wrap your head around that.
[quote]Pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Pat wrote:
And none of this has to do with whether or not God exists or not. Stalin could have been the pope, it still makes no difference.[/quote]
You’re the one who’s continually trying to steer this thread into a debate on whether or not god exists. But you’re right, and make my point…again. Stalin could have been the most religious man in history, full of faith in the lord, and his reasoning would’ve been the same; power, control, and political dogma. Every time.
[quote]Pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Pat wrote:
Hmmm… this sounds familiar:
" Communism required the abolition of religion[3]. Convinced atheists were considered to be more virtuous individuals than those of religious belief [3]."
“Some actions against Orthodox priests and believers along with execution included torture, being sent to prison camps, labour camps or mental hospitals.”
http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/soviet.exhibit/anti_rel.html[/quote]
Your first and fourth link are the same. But once again, this was not done in the name of atheism, but the pursuit of state interests. If you’re Stalin, and you’re enforcing the dogma of state collectivization/Marxism/Communism, then you certainly don’t want to compete with the dogma of religion, and you certainly would not be interested in sharing any any of the power/control that the church had over the people.
Power and control, it always comes back to that. Always.[/quote]
And atheism. State imposed atheism was the rule of the day and millions were murdered because of it, get over it.[/quote]
Again, there is no such thing as “state imposed atheism”, it’s impossible. You said it yourself; not even the barrel of a gun can make someone not believe if they already do. A state can ban religion, and even murder the religious, but it cannot impose a non belief.
[quote]Pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
I’ve told you before, Pat, I was raised as a catholic, did the whole CCD thing, I’ve read the bible although not cover to cover, did the whole Sunday school thing, and was even in Awana’s. You act as though I’ve never been exposed to religion, but the truth is that I’ve spent the larger portion of my life knee deep in it. I was just one of the lucky ones who escaped the delusion.
But by all means, keep incorrectly painting me as someone who doesn’t understand religion.[/quote]
I am not incorrect, your own words bare this out. You don’t know shit about it. I don’t care how long you spent in CCD, your pal Stalin was in seminary, and still turned out atheist.[/quote]
Tell me how my own words bare this out. I’ve more than proved you wrong about understanding of religion. More nonsensical ranting from you.
[quote]Pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
WOW, you’re really spiraling off the deep end. If you go back and reread what I wrote, I clearly stated that religion is politics, and politics is power. Politics, power, crushing competing dogmas, the need to control and impose; all endemic to tyrants and religions.
BUT, like was said, evil people will always do evil, but it takes religion for good people to do evil.[/quote]
There is no evil in your world remember? It’s all relative. Rereading what you wrote is jumping down the rabbit hole of wishful thinking and fact denying. It’s like your tirib’s mirror image.
Here’s a clue for you, if you have deny reality or make shit up to prove a point, you don’t have one and never did.[/quote]
I never fucking said that “there is no evil in my world”. LOL…what a clown you are.
Red herring much?
[quote]Pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
FACT: Atheism cannot be mandated by the state. A state can ban religion, but it cannot force a non belief. Spinning the facts cannot help your case.[/quote]
Fact, it was and I provided a bunch of examples. It was soviet policy. Go look it up. For once do some fucking research.[/quote]
FACT: you provided a bunch of exaples where Stalin targeted the religious institutions and attempted to eliminate them as a rival power structure. You provided no examples of atheism for the sake of atheism being the sole catalyst for these atrocicities. Keep trying.
For once, try to udersatnd what the fuck your talking about.
[quote]Pat wrote:
Fact: The state hosted a series of anti-religious campaigns which included but was not limited to extermination, forced-labor camps, and imprisonment.[/quote]
I realize that, and I’m not arguing that these things occurred, but ask yourself WHY they occurred. This fact does not equate to atheism as the driving factor; just doesn’t. It’s getting pathetic that I have to keep repeating this for you. You need to go deeper in this, and think a little more critically. Perhaps your religious bias cannot allow for it. Your loss.
[/quote]
Why they occurred is because they were trying to get rid of religion all together by any means possible. That’s what they stated, that’s what history says and anything beyond that is pure speculation without a scintilla of fact. You have YET to present a single fact supporting your magical assertion that this shit didn’t happen. Your living in fantasy land. [/quote]
Of course that’s what they stated as their resoning, because that’s what they wanted to do, they wanted to rid the nation of all religious institutions. LOL…you’re too fucking stupid to know what points I agree with you on.
WHY were they trying to rid the nation of religious institutions? What purpose would that serve a tyrant not wanting to be rivaled by any other institution of power and influence, and demanding totall servility to the state?
If you’d do some thinking on this, you’ll see it. Then again, perhaps you won’t.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Pat wrote:
These are facts. The links prove it, you’re just plain FUCKED here. Like usual you got nothing but some wishful thinking and some minority of leftist, idiots attempting history rewrites. Like I said, my family lived it, you cannot spin that shit.
Why don’t you ask Dr. Matt how tolerated religion was in the USSR, even in the “good times” prior to the collapse?[/quote]
Your understanding of the facts is just pathetic. Yes these atrocities occurred, I’m not arguing this. But it does not changed the base reasoning for it. It doesn’t matter what your family went through, doesn’t do a fucking ting for the fact that the base reasoning for what happened was power, control, and political/religious dogma. This is where YOU’RE fucked, because you cannot escape this fact. [/quote]
So your saying you understand the reasoning behind all of this, beyond the stated facts? Now that’s funny.
Somebody says they did something for a particular reason and all you can comeback with is, “That’s not the reason they did it”…[/quote]
Yes, I do understand why he did what he did, it’s you who miserably fails in that regard.
Show me where Stalin was quoted as saying that all he did was in the name of atheism, I’d like to see it. Now, I’m sure you’ll find plenty of anti-religious quotes from him, but I’m wanting to see some quotes from him that shore up your assertation that atheism was the driving factor for all he did, and was “front and center” the resoning for his murders. Let’s see these quotes.
[quote]Pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Your all over the place here, you must be worked up into some religious frenzy. LOL
Yes, Stalin committed atrocities against the religious. Yes, Stalin attempted to crush religious institutions. BUT, you’re still not going deep enough into the reasoning because you desperately want this to be about atheism for the sake of atheism.[/quote]
Deep enough? Wow! just Wow! “Your so stupid, you’re not going beyond the stated facts” Uh, huh. So we have to look deeper because it could not have been a motivation to impose a supposed ‘non-belief’ on a people by force.[/quote]
Again, you cannot enforce a non-belief on someone, even by force. So yes, you’re not going deep enough, keep trying.
[quote]Pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Do I really need to post links to all the christian martyrs of the world who died defending the christian superstition? Perhaps I could post links for those who’ve happily died in the name of all the religious superstitions of the world?
Ohhhh, that’s right. Christianity is the one true religion. LOL[/quote]
You’d first have to prove it’s superstition dumbass… Something you cannot do. You cannot even support your own atheism much less prove any religious belief to be false.[/quote]
I don’t have to support my atheism, it’s folks like you that have to support your belief.
Perhaps your more comfortable with “Bronze Age Mythology”?
[quote]Pat wrote:
Well, you’ve been mighty entertaining with mystical ‘deeper reasons’ behind atrocities committed for the stated reason of getting rid of religion and religious by any means necessary. If anybody is full of shit here it’s you. Trying to make up fake reasons for the millions murdered because of the imposition of atheism. But no, it’s not a fact because they had ‘deeper reasons’. They didn’t really mean it when they said it, they actually meant other things which apparently only you know, and have NO backup for. ZERO facts. You’re the one engaging in wishful thinking here, not me…
Perhaps you can entertain me with how things magically ‘poof’ into existence for no reason and no cause. 'Cause I’d sure like to know how that works.[/quote]
Start the thread, Pat, you’re just dying to talk about this. Just do it and quit fucking whining about it.
In the meantime, your argument of:
[i]
- Stalin was an atheist
- Stalin murdered/imprisoned many of the religious in his rise to power
- Therefore atheism leads to murder and atrocities.[/i]
Is laughable and sad. Your overly simplistic reasining is embarrasing you.
For the last time, I’ll spell it out for you. Atheism doesn’t drive people like Mao, Stalin, or anyone else to commit the atrocities that they commited, fanatacism does, dogma does, the need for power and control does. Atheism has no agenda, no dogma, no system of beliefs, nothing. It’s nothing more than the non belief in any of the deities currently worshipped in any of the religions of the world. We don’t believe in your god, or their god, or any of the gods in the history of the world.
People were murderd and imprisoned because they and their institutions were a threat to the state. Period, end of story. Your ravings won’t change that, no matter how bad you’re dying to paint atheism as some sort of evil that drives people to do evil things. Dogma should be what you rail against, yet ironically all you do is support religious dogma.
Atheism doesn’t kill, fanatacism does.