Bill Cosby - Black Conservative

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Beowolf wrote:

I suggest you check out …Tupac (of course).

I’ll assume you were joking.

[/quote]

Couldn’t be further from the truth. He addressed real issues…negative and positive…and not just BS he wrote to make a record cough…50 Cent

Well at least before his Death Row days…those that paid attention noticed the difference in his lyrics/demeanor before Death Row…and after they began to fall apart…Makaveli album. There is a difference…trust me.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Beowolf wrote:

I suggest you check out …Tupac (of course).

I’ll assume you were joking.

[/quote]

Couldn’t be further from the truth. He addressed real issues…poverty,death,love,fatherhood,etc…and not just BS he wrote to make a record cough…50 Cent Of course those that did not listen to him only focused on the negative.

Well at least before his Death Row days…those that payed attention noticed the difference in his lyrics/demeanor before Death Row…and after they began to fall apart…Makaveli album. There is a difference…trust me.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Beowolf wrote:

You… have a problem with Tupac? Yes, he has some violent songs, no, not all of them are violent. Just like not all of The Beatles music is trippy as all hell and only enjoyable under the influence of Acid.

I…do have a problem with Tupac and those in his category.

The Beatles comparison makes no sense.

[/quote]

…Why? (Had to continue the ellipses theme.)

Makes sense to me. I don’t consider The Beatles a band that only promotes acid use and is completely tripped out, just like I don’t consider Tupac a bullshit violent gangsta.

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

Couldn’t be further from the truth. He addressed real issues…negative and positive…and not just BS he wrote to make a record cough…50 Cent

Well at least before his Death Row days…those that paid attention noticed the difference in his lyrics/demeanor before Death Row…and after they began to fall apart…Makaveli album. There is a difference…trust me.[/quote]

Tupac, unfortunately, talked about how awful the ghetto was - and then, upon achieving his success, did not get away from it and instead chose to glorify it.

He wants to damn it, and yet continue to profit from it. If the message is that the ghetto is bad, someone trying to shine a light into that awful place through his poetry would presumably try and make the case to get further and further away.

Instead, he exploited the misery. He is a successful pop artist who sold an image - but, tragically, reinforced much of the misery of the ghetto he claimed was worthy of escaping.

A sad story - but all too familiar.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:

Couldn’t be further from the truth. He addressed real issues…negative and positive…and not just BS he wrote to make a record cough…50 Cent

Well at least before his Death Row days…those that paid attention noticed the difference in his lyrics/demeanor before Death Row…and after they began to fall apart…Makaveli album. There is a difference…trust me.

Tupac, unfortunately, talked about how awful the ghetto was - and then, upon achieving his success, did not get away from it and instead chose to glorify it.

He wants to damn it, and yet continue to profit from it. If the message is that the ghetto is bad, someone trying to shine a light into that awful place through his poetry would presumably try and make the case to get further and further away.

Instead, he exploited the misery. He is a successful pop artist who sold an image - but, tragically, reinforced much of the misery of the ghetto he claimed was worthy of escaping.

A sad story - but all too familiar.[/quote]

Some of this IS true. However;
A) I don’t blame him for wanting money.
B) He didn’t necessarily glorify the ghetto so much as he glorified the sense of family he found in criminal activity. While this isn’t exactly the most moral statement, it was a part of his life.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Beowolf wrote:

I suggest you check out …Tupac (of course).

I’ll assume you were joking.

[/quote]

Couldn’t be further from the truth. He addressed real issues…poverty,death,love,fatherhood,etc…and not just BS he wrote to make a record cough…50 Cent Of course those that did not listen to him only focused on the negative.

Well at least before his Death Row days…those that payed attention noticed the change in his lyrics/demeanor before Death Row…then noticed the shift back after they began to fall apart(Makaveli album). There is a difference…trust me.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:

Some of this IS true. However;
A) I don’t blame him for wanting money.[/quote]

Me neither. Which is all I will give him credit for - he is was a very good entrepreneur.

It was, but again the issue is what he did once he could transcend all that. Once broken out of the ghetto - when he made millions - what did he do? Did he improve the ghetto or encourage impressionable young people who no doubt looked up to him to make good choices so as not to experience the ghetto life?

Sadly, he did the opposite. Tupac and those like him had a fantastic opportunity to actually take a shot at curing some the ills they rapped about - but chose a different route.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:

Tupac, unfortunately, talked about how awful the ghetto was - and then, upon achieving his success, did not get away from it and instead chose to glorify it.

He wants to damn it, and yet continue to profit from it. If the message is that the ghetto is bad, someone trying to shine a light into that awful place through his poetry would presumably try and make the case to get further and further away.

Instead, he exploited the misery. He is a successful pop artist who sold an image - but, tragically, reinforced much of the misery of the ghetto he claimed was worthy of escaping.

A sad story - but all too familiar.[/quote]

Those artist or celebrities who just “get away” are the ones who are mentioned as “forgetting where they come from.” Negative or not…its what molded those celebrities/artists into who they are. Perfect analogy is his relationship with his mother DESPITE her own failings…yet it didn’t change the fact that he loved her and respected her. In his own way,he felt he was helping the ghetto by telling its story.

He did LOTS for his communities…especially children. But of course most would not have known by watching the news and reading tabloids…or using their own shallow judgment. You can tell who actually “listened” to his music.

One of his own lyrics points to the fact that no matter how much he talked about the ghetto,no one cares or would try to change what was going on in the ghetto. You only scratched the surface of what his messages embodied. I could go on…but its besides the point that was being made to begin with.

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

Those artist or celebrities who just “get away” are the ones who are mentioned as “forgetting where they come from.” Negative or not…its what molded those celebrities/artists into who they are.[/quote]

You are confusing “ignoring your roots” with reinforcing all the things wrong with where you came from. Tupac didn’t have to move to Connecticut - but in my view, he needed to do more than continue to glorify all the things he said, by his own admission, were bad.

How so? Did he encourage young kids to eschew the criminal activity that is supposed to be bad?

My problem is that once he had his means to help - and I mean, honestly help - he opted to continue to send mixed messages to urban black youth as to whether a ghetto life or a life escaped of the ghetto was the right choice.

That problem still exists.

I agree - my time is limited to get much further into it. I’ll only add that Tupac was as guilty as those he criticized for being unwilling to actually effect change in the ghetto. I think my biggest problem is that I see an opportunity missed to really do a lot for urban black kids who have suffered from mixed messages too long.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:

Those artist or celebrities who just “get away” are the ones who are mentioned as “forgetting where they come from.” Negative or not…its what molded those celebrities/artists into who they are.

You are confusing “ignoring your roots” with reinforcing all the things wrong with where you came from. Tupac didn’t have to move to Connecticut - but in my view, he needed to do more than continue to glorify all the things he said, by his own admission, were bad.

Perfect analogy is his relationship with his mother DESPITE her own failings…yet it didn’t change the fact that he loved her and respected her. In his own way,he felt he was helping the ghetto by telling its story. He did a lot for his communities.

How so? Did he encourage young kids to eschew the criminal activity that is supposed to be bad?

My problem is that once he had his means to help - and I mean, honestly help - he opted to continue to send mixed messages to urban black youth as to whether a ghetto life or a life escaped of the ghetto was the right choice.

That problem still exists.

One of his own lyrics points to the fact that no matter how much he talked about the ghetto,no one cares or would try to change what was going on in the ghetto. You only scratched the surface of what his messages embodied. I could go on…but its besides the point that was being made to begin with.

I agree - my time is limited to get much further into it. I’ll only add that Tupac was as guilty as those he criticized for being unwilling to actually effect change in the ghetto. I think my biggest problem is that I see an opportunity missed to really do a lot for urban black kids who have suffered from mixed messages too long. [/quote]

Well,I’ll leave it at this…our country has a society that thrives on sending mixed messages as a whole…which is why you can’t blame Tupac or the like…he was one of those urban black kids who suffered,too.

Ultimately, Cosby’s point isn’t to start a debate about WHAT in the black community has led and continues to lead it to’underperform’ relative to its potential. In his mind, the ‘blame game’ has done nothing but inhibit the progress that NEEDS to be made.

His response is a plea for the black community to look INWARD for solutions instead of pointing OUTWARD with blame. Blaming music/movies/videogames is just more pointing outward. There are no solutions to be found by going down that road, just more fingerpointing.

[quote]SinisterMinister wrote:
Ultimately, Cosby’s point isn’t to start a debate about WHAT in the black community has led and continues to lead it to’underperform’ relative to its potential. In his mind, the ‘blame game’ has done nothing but inhibit the progress that NEEDS to be made.

His response is a plea for the black community to look INWARD for solutions instead of pointing OUTWARD with blame. Blaming music/movies/videogames is just more pointing outward. There are no solutions to be found by going down that road, just more fingerpointing. [/quote]

Agreed, yet when the focus is on uplifting the black community as a whole, we get significant criticism as if that is a “racist” concept. The message of unity was the true issue behind the Million Man March…yet it gets related only to Farrakhan lately as if everyone attending agreed with every notion the man represents.

This is the same reason it is easily understood by many in the black community why Obama would have stayed at a church even though he may not agree with everything the preacher says from his pulpit.

For many of us, the goal is to promote unity within the Black community, something very hard to do under heavy scrutiny from “White America” which seems waiting to pounce on every individual detail they may not agree with.

We have people on this forum who act like the existence of BET is a racist concept…while completely ignoring the fact that before its inception, most tv was strictly “WET”. That didn’t even start to change until after the success of mostly black shows like The Jeffersons and Goodtimes which seemed to cross racial barriers and social consciousness.

The black community is still dealing with a growth process, something those completely separate from that culture seem too self indulgent to even attempt to understand.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
SinisterMinister wrote:
Ultimately, Cosby’s point isn’t to start a debate about WHAT in the black community has led and continues to lead it to’underperform’ relative to its potential. In his mind, the ‘blame game’ has done nothing but inhibit the progress that NEEDS to be made.

His response is a plea for the black community to look INWARD for solutions instead of pointing OUTWARD with blame. Blaming music/movies/videogames is just more pointing outward. There are no solutions to be found by going down that road, just more fingerpointing.

Agreed, yet when the focus is on uplifting the black community as a whole, we get significant criticism as if that is a “racist” concept. The message of unity was the true issue behind the Million Man March…yet it gets related only to Farrakhan lately as if everyone attending agreed with every notion the man represents.

This is the same reason it is easily understood by many in the black community why Obama would have stayed at a church even though he may not agree with everything the preacher says from his pulpit.

For many of us, the goal is to promote unity within the Black community, something very hard to do under heavy scrutiny from “White America” which seems waiting to pounce on every individual detail they may not agree with.

We have people on this forum who act like the existence of BET is a racist concept…while completely ignoring the fact that before its inception, most tv was strictly “WET”. That didn’t even start to change until after the success of mostly black shows like The Jeffersons and Goodtimes which seemed to cross racial barriers and social consciousness.

The black community is still dealing with a growth process, something those completely separate from that culture seem too self indulgent to even attempt to understand.[/quote]

Well said. Sinister Minister has good perspective…unlike those who blindly agree with Cosby because they misinterpret what he says to soothe their own biased egos and “blame game” mentality.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Beowolf wrote:

You… have a problem with Tupac? Yes, he has some violent songs, no, not all of them are violent. Just like not all of The Beatles music is trippy as all hell and only enjoyable under the influence of Acid.

I…do have a problem with Tupac and those in his category.

The Beatles comparison makes no sense.

[/quote]

Happiness is a warm gun.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
We have people on this forum who act like the existence of BET is a racist concept[/quote]

At a very minimum, BET is an exclusionary television channel based solely on skin color. Even if you don’t consider it racist, it’s definitely exclusionary.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but in the 1974-1975 seasons, the Jeffersons, Good Times, and Sanford and Son were all on mainstream television, and were NBC and CBS’s most popular shows. These shows did indeed cross racial barriers and social consciousness, all without BET. Would they have crossed as many barriers as they did if they had been on a channel that was dedicated only to the black community? I think probably not.

.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Professor X wrote:
We have people on this forum who act like the existence of BET is a racist concept

At a very minimum, BET is an exclusionary television channel based solely on skin color. Even if you don’t consider it racist, it’s definitely exclusionary.

…while completely ignoring the fact that before its inception, most tv was strictly “WET”. That didn’t even start to change until after the success of mostly black shows like The Jeffersons and Goodtimes which seemed to cross racial barriers and social consciousness.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but in the 1974-1975 seasons, the Jeffersons, Good Times, and Sanford and Son were all on mainstream television, and were NBC and CBS’s most popular shows. These shows did indeed cross racial barriers and social consciousness, all without BET. Would they have crossed as many barriers as they did if they had been on a channel that was dedicated only to the black community? I think probably not.

[/quote]

I think BET currently is a waste of airspace and I rarely waste my time watching that channel. That doesn’t mean I don’t understand it was needed originally. MTV used to not show black artists when it first aired. Michael Jackson was the FIRST black (funny writing that now) artist they ever showed on air. Things took off from there leading to Rap City and other shows geared towards the audience they had initially ignored. You are right about those shows. You are also wrong if you think that because those shows existed that blacks in general were not fighting for air time and recognition anywhere near equal to that of white actors.

Even today, how rare is it to see a show with a majority black cast without it being labeled a “black show”? Meanwhile, no one even notices that most shows are majority white yet not seen as “white shows”.

I also hate some of the stereotypical black shows that the UPN network kept tossing on air a few years ago (even though I think even that helped break some barriers). Shows like Martin (which seemed to surprise people by how many tuned in to watch back then) did way more good than negative. I think we will actually be getting somewhere the moment a show can be cast as majority black/majority white/majority hispanic/asian without that even being an issue at all while being completely accepted across the board.

I think we are damn close now thanks to all of those shows mentioned (remember, a white guy married to a black woman was actually a big issue when The Jeffersons first aired…they helped change that stigma). But I also don’t think we are there yet.

Let me also add that I LOVE shows like House MD which show a black doctor (those who know my real name understand why I like it so much) while not making him ACT black.

I really don’t get the beef with BET. And I have yet to see one solid argument of why it is wrong or racist.

BET is a cable channel aimed at a specific audience. And the problem is…? Most cable channels do this. Lifetime, Oxygen, Nickelodeon, Spike, etc. There’s a cable channel for just about every population group you can imagine. It’s all just a matter of whether or not your cable provider carries it.

I just don’t get it.

[quote]malonetd wrote:
I really don’t get the beef with BET. And I have yet to see one solid argument of why it is wrong or racist.

BET is a cable channel aimed at a specific audience. And the problem is…? Most cable channels do this. Lifetime, Oxygen, Nickelodeon, Spike, etc. There’s a cable channel for just about every population group you can imagine. It’s all just a matter of whether or not your cable provider carries it.

I just don’t get it.[/quote]

Agreed. They are making an issue out of nothing. Blacks have been under-represented in film and television. It only makes sense to gear a channel to those with those interests.