[quote]Westclock wrote:
Its stupid, EVERYONE does it, and all it does is make all the fighters WEAKER, which makes it less entertaining. If only some people did it, huge advantage, but the playing field is pretty even.[/quote]
Everyone does it, it’s been part of the sport for so long, but it is a way to gain the upper hand. Altough some fighters focus too much on the weight cutting and their performance doesn’t match what is required because they are so tired from all that cutting.
[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
Think about it, same day weigh ins-are not given so fighters can recoup.
If same day weigh ins happened, fighters would still cut the same amount of weight.
Its allot of cash.
If you have ever wrestled, played judo, played bjj, or any kind of boxing/thai boxing
even semi seriously you would see this is all par for the course.
If you have not seen this kind of cutting in person it says something about your training.
every one cuts past a certain level.
you see much bigger cuts for mma or boxing because most fighters are not in ‘fighting shape’
or close to it for most of the year, even if they ‘train’ hard most of the year,
they are not in a fight camp. Most ‘walking around weight’ is pre fight camp.
Cutting is part of the game, and its not going anywhere.
[/quote]
QFT
should be gospel
[quote]Westclock wrote:
I say weigh in right before the fight. Not 24 hours, but like half an hour.
Fuck the cutting and the water manipulation and all that shit. Sure its part of the game. But if you weigh in 30 minutes before…sure you can dehydrate and try to come back up but its going to suck, and you might as well fight at the actual weight you are.
If you fight 185 you should actually FIGHT at 185. If you want to be heavier, then cool, fight 205 or whatever.
Its stupid, EVERYONE does it, and all it does is make all the fighters WEAKER, which makes it less entertaining. If only some people did it, huge advantage, but the playing field is pretty even.[/quote]
Basic game theory, if you can’t trust that the other guy won’t do it, you have to do it. If both fighters could just agree to fight at an uncut weight they would both perform better but neither would trust the other not to ‘cheat’ on the agreement by coming in heavier and cutting so they both do something unpleasant that is to their detriment.
[quote]Westclock wrote:
I say weigh in right before the fight. Not 24 hours, but like half an hour.
Fuck the cutting and the water manipulation and all that shit. Sure its part of the game. But if you weigh in 30 minutes before…sure you can dehydrate and try to come back up but its going to suck, and you might as well fight at the actual weight you are.
If you fight 185 you should actually FIGHT at 185. If you want to be heavier, then cool, fight 205 or whatever.
Its stupid, EVERYONE does it, and all it does is make all the fighters WEAKER, which makes it less entertaining. If only some people did it, huge advantage, but the playing field is pretty even.[/quote]
Problem is, you are still gonna have guys cutting water weight to make their division. It’s just the nature of the beast, especially when money is involved: guys cut weight because they want to come in as big as possible and get every possible advantage.
So if you have same day weigh ins, you WILL have guys coming out to fight dehydrated. Which is a huge health risk, especially if one gets KO’d.
It’s part of the game, it can never be changed as long as there are weight classes. And this isn’t a bad thing. People act like its a big deal, but it is necessary. Yeah, some guys like Johnson cut huge amounts, but in the end the best fighters still win. But you have to be dialed in to a weight class. Nobody is an exact weight. The guys who weigh 175 literally need to cut to make weight or they end up as a very small MW. But it makes no sense for them to go to 170 when they can make 155 just as easily. Plus this actually makes for better fights. The people who have a problem with it are the ones who don’t and have never done it.
Weight cutting is a pain in the ass, all hail the heavy weights!
[quote]Body Hammer wrote:
[quote]Westclock wrote:
I say weigh in right before the fight. Not 24 hours, but like half an hour.
Fuck the cutting and the water manipulation and all that shit. Sure its part of the game. But if you weigh in 30 minutes before…sure you can dehydrate and try to come back up but its going to suck, and you might as well fight at the actual weight you are.
If you fight 185 you should actually FIGHT at 185. If you want to be heavier, then cool, fight 205 or whatever.
Its stupid, EVERYONE does it, and all it does is make all the fighters WEAKER, which makes it less entertaining. If only some people did it, huge advantage, but the playing field is pretty even.[/quote]
Problem is, you are still gonna have guys cutting water weight to make their division. It’s just the nature of the beast, especially when money is involved: guys cut weight because they want to come in as big as possible and get every possible advantage.
So if you have same day weigh ins, you WILL have guys coming out to fight dehydrated. Which is a huge health risk, especially if one gets KO’d.
[/quote]
Let them dehydrate. They are going to suffer horribly performance wise. And will not win the fight anyways.
If you lose no one cares about you.
If you want to take all the water out of your system and make yourself a glass jaw, just to come in 5 or so pounds heavier go ahead, its no advantage.
Weigh ins 30 minutes before the bout, completely level playing field, no way to EFFECTIVELY cheat.
[quote]1000rippedbuff wrote:
It’s part of the game, it can never be changed as long as there are weight classes. And this isn’t a bad thing. People act like its a big deal, but it is necessary. Yeah, some guys like Johnson cut huge amounts, but in the end the best fighters still win. But you have to be dialed in to a weight class. Nobody is an exact weight. The guys who weigh 175 literally need to cut to make weight or they end up as a very small MW. But it makes no sense for them to go to 170 when they can make 155 just as easily. Plus this actually makes for better fights. The people who have a problem with it are the ones who don’t and have never done it.[/quote]
agreed.
several of the guys that i know that wrestled in college were making 15-20lb cuts a couple times a week in season.
interestingly enough, some of those guys that fight MMA now don’t cut any water, but bring their weight down over the course of a few months…
After seeing BJ GSP and Fedor, we can all agree that the heaviest fighters don’t win because of their weight(at least at that level of fighting, go to any smaller show and the bigger guy always trashes the other)
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Basic game theory, if you can’t trust that the other guy won’t do it, you have to do it. If both fighters could just agree to fight at an uncut weight they would both perform better but neither would trust the other not to ‘cheat’ on the agreement by coming in heavier and cutting so they both do something unpleasant that is to their detriment.[/quote]
I’m surprised you guys glossed over this, pretty much explains why it’s NEVER going away no matter how you legislate it or change the rules around. Someone is always going to seek an advantage.
Also regarding the weight cut #'s. Imagine that you’re training primarily strength and technique for a period of time and you’re just maintaining your conditioning at a certain level. High enough that you can complete 3-5x5 rounds of training but not at peak levels. Then you get a fight. You have 8-12 weeks to prepare like hell so you drop all your strength shit, you aren’t learning any REALLY new techniques just training your conditioning and strategy.
Very little strength training and essentially a shitload of cardio… I mean 4-6 (sometimes 8) hrs of pads, grappling, roadwork, sparring, intervals, and occasionally lifting weights. DAILY. At an intensity you reserve for your war preparations. And often times you’re doing all of this AND limiting your eating. It’s like a weapons-grade professional 6 hours of working out AND the velocity diet.
You lose a SHITLOAD of weight just going into training camp. I sincerely doubt most guys are waiting the day before their fight and trying to cut FORTY and FIFTY POUNDS. Lets be realistic. 50lb cut from 220 would be (off the top of my head) 20-22% of the guy’s bodyweight that’s just ridiculous. The recommendations are that your performance drops off after a 5% loss of water weight. Jesus 20% would damn near kill you. GRANTED… I may be wrong in a lot of cases but generally speaking I don’t think most guys cut that much the day before. Not the full amount of their “walking around” weight.
The practice itself might be unhealthy but consider this: If you’re normally training with an additional 20-30lbs on… how much stronger are you (consider relative strength) after you lose lets say 1/2 of that and cut the other 1/2 the day before. If you keep your prior strength levels (with acceptable drop off) you go from (just an example) benching 275 @ 170 to 265@ 155, and walk in the cage at 160-165. It’s like training with a weighted vest the whole time. It’s not so much the SIZE per say, cause they’re bigger than the other guys but generally not THAT much bigger, usually it’s just their frame. Moreso it’s their strength levels.
[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
After seeing BJ GSP and Fedor, we can all agree that the heaviest fighters don’t win because of their weight(at least at that level of fighting, go to any smaller show and the bigger guy always trashes the other)[/quote]
Fedor yes. GSP & BJ are debatable
BJ is an average sized 170’er. A large 155’er. Just look at the reach advantage he has on most guys he fights even guys his height and taller. Keep in mind that he also fought Machida at 205 (though I doubt BJ was over 190). BJ carries serious weight when he wants to. He’s not a tiny guy.
GSP is a larger 170’er. He’s not the most muscle bound but his frame is huge. He and BJ are about the same height (give or take an inche) and he had a large reach advantage. He gets way more shit for being larger than everyone than I think he deserves. Dan Hardy, Paul Daley, Thiago Alves, (Hell Gleason Tibau) all look way larger than GSP and actually seem to carry more muscle than him. If GSP was having any problems making weight he wouldn’t have been able to put on an additional 10lbs of muscle for the Hardy fight. You know Alves isn’t putting on any more muscle onto his frame.
Anthony Johnson would be a LARGE 170’er. Framewise he’s a light heavyweight easily. And is easily in the 200’s before training camp. I wouldn’t say 220 but 200+ is easy. He said in a recent interview he tries to stay at 190 now just so he can take fights at a short notice. 10 lbs before camp 10lbs the day before weigh ins. Not nearly as much as you’d think when you’re training full time.
Fedor is…Fedor.
Not really BJ is 5’9 where St Pierre is 5’11. BJ also only weighs 165ish now, which is not that big for LW, when he fought Machida I believe he was 187 or so can’t remember exactly but he was also fat there.
I watched BJ VS Lyoto again and i’m damn impressed, more and more i stop believing in size and strength beats technique(witch to a certain point is truth) and focusing on technique. Bj just hang in there all rounds with Lyoto.
I need to go to Hilo ASAP
I think cutting weight is just a part of the entire game.
For BJJ I couldn’t care less, I don’t cut and I stay at a weight class where I am not on top…
Shit happens but if you lose you lose…
For MMA I do drop a couple of pounds in the weeks going up to the fight to make my weightclass, but at my level I don’t need to cut down from 170 to 155 for example. I just drop a couple of pounds to drop to my more natural weightclass and after the fight I usually put on 10 pounds again.
Not much of a difference in weight but if I would not cut down, I would be a small MW in a pretty strong MW division here.
Wow, weight cutting is cheating? Really?
First its PEDs, fine you want everyone to use their ‘god-given’ talents, I can live with that. Plus not everyone can afford to take them, whatever.
Then its shit like painkillers and weed. Fine whatever, apparently adrenaline isn’t enough to numb physical damage, and being high makes you a war god (or Nick Diaz).
Now its weight cutting. Something EVERYONE can do, as long as they have a brain and willpower. Something that need not be taken to the point of bodily harm, and can be relatively safe. Jesus…
What do you think will happen when they introduce same day weigh ins? Guys will be dieting down to their weight classes and cutting water THE DAY OF THEIR FIGHT. These guys are athletes, they’re competitive and will seek every single edge they can.
For those of you that think a bit more muscle on your frame guarantees you a win, watch Fedor, GSP, Couture or Velasquez. Technique and athleticism in your sport are more important. A.J just got choked by Koscheck, despite that supposed 50lb weight cut (bullshit, I assure you he ‘cuts’ from the sub-200lb region).
For those of you that decry the fact that one man can dominate another because of his size and strength advantage (and I presume many of you also decry Lesnar), welcome to combat sport. Its a part of the game baby. If you’re getting tooled in your division because of strength, your opponents are not too strong, you are too weak. The way I see it, strength and size is a skill. If you know how to use that skill in your sport, it becomes a weapon, just like knowing sub-defense, wrestling and how to throw a jab.
While I know some would like to see ‘pure technique’, you guys are forgetting this is a sport, with athletes.
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
BJ is an average sized 170’er. A large 155’er. Just look at the reach advantage he has on most guys he fights even guys his height and taller. Keep in mind that he also fought Machida at 205 (though I doubt BJ was over 190). BJ carries serious weight when he wants to. He’s not a tiny guy.
[/quote]
Well he was average sized. Look at him in those two Hughes fights. He’s smaller than Hughes, who isn’t that big come fight time (what was it 185? or is that another fighter?). BJ may have fought those fights at 180 or less, and a 10lb weight cut is minuscule by today’s standards (it takes me 3 days of very mild dieting, and light cardio).
I’m not sure I’d consider him a big 155’er either. Doesn’t he come down to 165-168 during training camp? Again not that big of a cut.
As for carrying weight when he wants to, just note it was never ‘quality mass’ in that any extra muscle came with a good amount of fat. The first time he went up in weight to fight out of the UFC, he was chubby all the way up to the Machida fight. The 2nd fight with GSP, he looked softer than his last fight at WW, and seemed to move accordingly (on the feet), though that could just have been GSP doing his thing.