T Nation

Bigger, stronger, leaner.

[quote]Achilles of war wrote:
On a cold Friday afternoon, I had come home from school. I had been thinking of the gym all day. I was hungry, didn’t have any lunch. In fact, I didn’t eat because I spent the money. For the past month I was saving up for something. Something special which I bought at GNC. I was surprised they didn’t ask for ID; I was pretty sure the cashier noticed how nervous I was. Anyways, my mom asked my how my day was when I got home, but I ignored her. I have more important things to do. I run to the bathroom and unpack my bag. In my school bag is a white plastic bag from GNC. I open the bag, first removing the receipt and flushing it down the toilet to get rid of the evidence. My heart was racing now. I unpack the creatine monster from the bag.

I wonder what people will be asking me when they see that I will be 50lbs heavier. Should I say I was just eating a lot? I remove the label from the tub and tear it into a thousand small pieces. I flush that down the toilet, too. It is time now. I run up to my room when my mom ask me what I am holding. I panic, sweat drips down my forehead and my teeth chatter. “Mom, it’s just for a school project”. “What project?” “I don’t know mom I just started it!”. A tear runs down my cheek. I run upstairs and open the creatine, scooping upservings into a clear water bottle. What have I gotten myself into? I fill it with water and drink it. There is no turning back now. The creatine monster is inside me now, it will control me. What should I do if I die? I cant let my family know about this.

I open the creatine tub and throw it all out the window; a white cloud of mysterious dust sparkles into the wind so graciously. I feel the substance taking control of me; I am now the monster. I walk downstairs, its time to work out; time to get big. Now I worry, I don’t want to get too big; people will think I use steroids. I do use steroids. No I don’t. Creatine. All I see is the weights now, I am almost downstairs when I hear “Do you want a cookie I just baked”. I know I do not have time for this **** now. “No mom I do not want a cookie” I walk in the basement and drop to my knees before the weights, tears running down my cheeks. I turn to the right and look at myself in the mirror. Oh god, what have I done?

The creatine has entered my veins, I can feel it raging inside of me. I look down and realize my 11 inch biceps have swollen at least half an inch. I’ve become scared of my own strength. My mother knocks on the door to tell me good night, but i tell her not to open the door…I dont want her to see me like this. Just a few moments later, I catch myself looking at myself in the mirror…I can barely recognize myself. [/quote]

strong copy pasta.

[quote]Zerpp wrote:

[quote]Achilles of war wrote:
On a cold Friday afternoon, I had come home from school. I had been thinking of the gym all day. I was hungry, didn’t have any lunch. In fact, I didn’t eat because I spent the money. For the past month I was saving up for something. Something special which I bought at GNC. I was surprised they didn’t ask for ID; I was pretty sure the cashier noticed how nervous I was. Anyways, my mom asked my how my day was when I got home, but I ignored her. I have more important things to do. I run to the bathroom and unpack my bag. In my school bag is a white plastic bag from GNC. I open the bag, first removing the receipt and flushing it down the toilet to get rid of the evidence. My heart was racing now. I unpack the creatine monster from the bag.

I wonder what people will be asking me when they see that I will be 50lbs heavier. Should I say I was just eating a lot? I remove the label from the tub and tear it into a thousand small pieces. I flush that down the toilet, too. It is time now. I run up to my room when my mom ask me what I am holding. I panic, sweat drips down my forehead and my teeth chatter. “Mom, it’s just for a school project”. “What project?” “I don’t know mom I just started it!”. A tear runs down my cheek. I run upstairs and open the creatine, scooping upservings into a clear water bottle. What have I gotten myself into? I fill it with water and drink it. There is no turning back now. The creatine monster is inside me now, it will control me. What should I do if I die? I cant let my family know about this.

I open the creatine tub and throw it all out the window; a white cloud of mysterious dust sparkles into the wind so graciously. I feel the substance taking control of me; I am now the monster. I walk downstairs, its time to work out; time to get big. Now I worry, I don’t want to get too big; people will think I use steroids. I do use steroids. No I don’t. Creatine. All I see is the weights now, I am almost downstairs when I hear “Do you want a cookie I just baked”. I know I do not have time for this **** now. “No mom I do not want a cookie” I walk in the basement and drop to my knees before the weights, tears running down my cheeks. I turn to the right and look at myself in the mirror. Oh god, what have I done?

The creatine has entered my veins, I can feel it raging inside of me. I look down and realize my 11 inch biceps have swollen at least half an inch. I’ve become scared of my own strength. My mother knocks on the door to tell me good night, but i tell her not to open the door…I dont want her to see me like this. Just a few moments later, I catch myself looking at myself in the mirror…I can barely recognize myself. [/quote]

strong copy pasta.
[/quote]

strong quote pasta.

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

[quote]Marzouk wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:
get lean first
then get strong and big while keeping bodyfat in check.

is this a gymrat subforum?[/quote]

So someone who is 150lbs and 20% and wants to get huge. You’d recommend that they cut? hmmmmm[/quote]

Should they do a traditional bulk?

Fuck no, end of story.[/quote]

Where did i say they should bulk? Nowhere. Like PB said, if you look like that you’ve prbablu never lifted in your life.

The first thing you’d say to them wouldn’t be, ‘lets get u cut’ it would be, clean up your diet increase your protein and lift shit.

If he was 200+ and 20%-30% bf then ye shoud concentrate on losing weight. It all depends on what the subject looks like to start with.

Seriously an someone, like a MOD who knows what is going on comment on what this new subforum is all about?

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]Marzouk wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:
get lean first
then get strong and big while keeping bodyfat in check.

is this a gymrat subforum?[/quote]

So someone who is 150lbs and 20% and wants to get huge. You’d recommend that they cut? hmmmmm[/quote]

more often then not somebody who is 150lbs and 20% has never lifted a weight in their life and lives at mcdonalds. so the likelihood of them gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time is greater when they embark on a diet and exercise regimen. they would probably recomp and end up at 150lbs 15% bodyfat or something.[/quote]

so true.

There does seem to be a worrying trend, particularly in young guys, to want to cut when they are still skinny-fat and untrained.

I work in a supp shop, and you’d be amazed how many skinny dudes come in looking to get rid of “that last bit of fat” which is actually just skin.

Folk don’t seem to realise that if you cut when you’ve got no muscle you are just going to look like a skeleton.

So yeah, I agree with wannabebig. A skinny fat, untrained dude is going to lose fat and build muscle at the same time just by cleaning up his diet and getting off his arse. No need to cut first.

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]detazathoth wrote:
What’s the point of this forum?

How is this suppose to be different from Bodybuilding?[/quote]

My guess its a forum for recreational lifters who are not beginners in terms of strenght/mass and experience under the barbell. Bigger, stronger, leaner does also sound cooler than “the recreational lifters forum”.
[/quote]
OMG Thank you! Now it makes sense. This is for people who lift weights but don’t want to BB or powerlift or Oly lift or fight or do strongman.

So this is the gymrat sub-forum?

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]Marzouk wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:
get lean first
then get strong and big while keeping bodyfat in check.

is this a gymrat subforum?[/quote]

So someone who is 150lbs and 20% and wants to get huge. You’d recommend that they cut? hmmmmm[/quote]

more often then not somebody who is 150lbs and 20% has never lifted a weight in their life and lives at mcdonalds. so the likelihood of them gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time is greater when they embark on a diet and exercise regimen. they would probably recomp and end up at 150lbs 15% bodyfat or something.[/quote]

I work in a supp shop, and you’d be amazed how many skinny dudes come in looking to get rid of “that last bit of fat” which is actually just skin.
[/quote]

HAHAH i dont know why that sounds so funny. i guess cause ive heard that so many times in the gym or supp shops.

skinny kid: “i wanna burn this last little bit of fat off”
supp shop guy: “bro, thats your skin”

There will always be arguments involving people without much LBM wanting to cut, and people with too much non-LBM thinking they should keep bulking. Both instances involve a certain degree of false self perception.

The reason why so many coaches recommend not getting too pudgy is the proven lower insulin sensitivity that accompanies carrying excess ‘bulk’ (non-LBM). This means that the weight gained will not be as ‘solid’ (a better ratio of actual muscle to adipose) as it could be if you were leaner.

Of course the real-life issue is going to come down to how high your bf% can go before you start feeling like a fatty, and can’t rationalize the possible long term gains with walking around all day being a bit embarrassed at talking your shirt off. I don’t care what anyone says, no one who works on their physique wants to be perceived as fat, or out of shape. I’m relatively short (5’8), and when I wear a suit off the rack, I look like a fatty (I need a 48 jacket and 32 pants, not exactly an off the rack build here I guess), and it does bother me on some level.

Ideally, you find what most call the ‘sweet spot’. Soft enough to allow you to enjoy life, but not so far gone that you’re not really making the quality gains you could if you dropped a few % points.

S

I think I figured out what this forum is. It’s for beginners who don’t want to admit they’re beginners because they’ve been lifting somewhere between 6 months and 2 years. (a la LoRez, Browndisaster, et al.) Kind of like a transitional forum. Like a cocoon for the beginner caterpillar that may eventually become a BB forum butterfly.

Sounds good to me.

Would it ever make sense to say eat whatever it takes to gain 20 or 30lbs and then spend the next 6 months to a Year maintaining that weight while trying to get lean? Or is it really better to just slowly add that same amount of weight little by little over the same amount of time?

[quote]browndisaster wrote:

Keep in mind bodyfat does not equal total weight, and a caloric surplus isn’t always needed to gain muscle, provided that the training stimulus is significant enough.[/quote]

So your saying the body can repair and build new muscle tissue in a caloric deficit? I’ve always followed the whole ‘law of thermodynamics’ crowd… mind explaining your theory in more detail?

[quote]combatreadyss wrote:
Would it ever make sense to say eat whatever it takes to gain 20 or 30lbs and then spend the next 6 months to a Year maintaining that weight while trying to get lean? Or is it really better to just slowly add that same amount of weight little by little over the same amount of time?[/quote]

No. Your body can only build so much muscle in a given time frame (ie. per month). No matter how much you eat, you can’t force feed muscle growth. Definitely make sure you eat more than maintenance levels, but if you start porking up faster than you’re actually putting on real muscle, you should probably scale it back a bit.

The idea of maintaining a weight that’s predominantly been fat gain (even with some muscle gained as well) doesn’t suddenly make the body build new muscle tissue faster.

S

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]combatreadyss wrote:
Would it ever make sense to say eat whatever it takes to gain 20 or 30lbs and then spend the next 6 months to a Year maintaining that weight while trying to get lean? Or is it really better to just slowly add that same amount of weight little by little over the same amount of time?[/quote]

No. Your body can only build so much muscle in a given time frame (ie. per month). No matter how much you eat, you can’t force feed muscle growth. Definitely make sure you eat more than maintenance levels, but if you start porking up faster than you’re actually putting on real muscle, you should probably scale it back a bit.

The idea of maintaining a weight that’s predominantly been fat gain (even with some muscle gained as well) doesn’t suddenly make the body build new muscle tissue faster.

S[/quote]

Wouldn’t someone untrained, say the 150 lb 20% bf example, want to eat near maintenance or just slightly above? They already have stored energy to build muscle in the form of body fat. I would like to hear your thoughts.

[quote]aspengc8 wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:

Keep in mind bodyfat does not equal total weight, and a caloric surplus isn’t always needed to gain muscle, provided that the training stimulus is significant enough.[/quote]

So your saying the body can repair and build new muscle tissue in a caloric deficit? I’ve always followed the whole ‘law of thermodynamics’ crowd… mind explaining your theory in more detail?[/quote]

They have ‘energy’ already stored as BF. It still adheres to the law of thermodynamics.

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

The idea of maintaining a weight that’s predominantly been fat gain (even with some muscle gained as well) doesn’t suddenly make the body build new muscle tissue faster.

S[/quote]

That isn’t why we say hold a new weight. No, you can not FORCE muscle gains. What you can do is make sure your body has what it needs when it is ready to grow after you do all you need to instigate growth.

What you just wrote refers to weight set points, and yes, I do see MUCH value in understanding that as a theory especially since so many see similar results.

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]aspengc8 wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:

Keep in mind bodyfat does not equal total weight, and a caloric surplus isn’t always needed to gain muscle, provided that the training stimulus is significant enough.[/quote]

So your saying the body can repair and build new muscle tissue in a caloric deficit? I’ve always followed the whole ‘law of thermodynamics’ crowd… mind explaining your theory in more detail?[/quote]

They have ‘energy’ already stored as BF. It still adheres to the law of thermodynamics. [/quote]
yup, if you’re 150 lbs 20% bodyfat and start lifting hard 6x a week, you’re sending powerful signals to your body saying “holy shit I need to build muscle to adapt.” Obviously you won’t get that profound a change when more experienced and leaner, but for a noob its very possible.

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
I think I figured out what this forum is. It’s for beginners who don’t want to admit they’re beginners because they’ve been lifting somewhere between 6 months and 2 years. (a la LoRez, Browndisaster, et al.) Kind of like a transitional forum. Like a cocoon for the beginner caterpillar that may eventually become a BB forum butterfly.

Sounds good to me.[/quote]

bp: 305
ohp: 185
squat: 335
deadlift: 445
loll won’t take me long to beat these, hopefully you’ve made more progress since then. come at me bro

Recomping is absolutely possible. I did it basically twice in my life. “Noob gains” for sure though.

Not that I’m some guru, but I’ve given this advice to people over the last year (eat less ,lift more) and most have had good results…
swoler muscles and less bf.

I admit it could simply be a cosmetic trick to the eye though.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

The idea of maintaining a weight that’s predominantly been fat gain (even with some muscle gained as well) doesn’t suddenly make the body build new muscle tissue faster.

S[/quote]

That isn’t why we say hold a new weight. No, you can not FORCE muscle gains. What you can do is make sure your body has what it needs when it is ready to grow after you do all you need to instigate growth.

What you just wrote refers to weight set points, and yes, I do see MUCH value in understanding that as a theory especially since so many see similar results.[/quote]
bodyweight set points are a fascinating topic. Read something recently about a benefit of losing bodyweight in stages. Lower body weight a bunch, maintain for at least two weeks or so, etc. The maintain time increasing as one gets closer to optimal weight. I think I remember 6 months of a static weight or a small range as being the time needed to classify it as a set point.
Similarly was strength set points. Those being the load one can lift even after an extended time off.
Interesting to me at least…