Big Guys... Horrid Lifting

The topic of discussion was big guys who seem to do crappy things in the gym. It was said that things could be learned from these guys. I say bullshit.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

If that is the way your mind works, then I feel sorry for you. I have learned something from everyone I have ever worked out with, whether it was the simple concept of pushing past perceived limits or the realization that we do not all recover the same.
[/quote]
So why not read the articles here? (You mention you almost never do). Why can’t you learn from them? I learned the concept of pushing past perceived limits myself (or from a book or article I forget). There was no big guy to teach me this.

So after this (and reading more advanced and specific info on building muscles) . . . who needs to pay attention to the big guy using the smith machine for squats?
[/quote]
Learn the names of each muscle and their actions. Those things are constants. By your logic, you might as well die now because you will never know who to learn from in life and who is telling you straight bullshit.[/quote]
O
r I will just ignore other people in the gym. Duh.

My ONLY source of knowledge of working out and nutrition is what I have learned from books and articles. I have always worked out alone or with someone less experienced than me. And gasp I make gains. Better gains than those who only follow advice from the “big guys” in the gym.

I really don’t see what’s so strange about saying learning from the big guys in the gym (at this point in time) is a bad idea. If I did this instead of reading books and articles I would not deadlift, would only have found out what a proper squat is several months ago, and would not know a single thing about proper nutrition. I would use the smith machine regularly.

I do know . . . because of reading books and articles on the subject . . . and NOT paying attention to the big guys in my gym.

[quote]BIGRAGOO wrote:
NNNNate wrote:
Take what’s good and leave the shit out? To do that, I’d have to know what’s good and what’s shit before paying attention to these guys . . . so there’s really no point to paying attention to them.

I was assuming that you knew that getting drunk and the rest of your comment was the “shit” part.[/quote]

[quote]NNNNate wrote:
I do know . . . because of reading books and articles on the subject . . . and NOT paying attention to the big guys in my gym.
[/quote]

Ok, so the next question is: Are you a big guy in your gym?

I’m in the top 25%. And most of those that are bigger are older.

[quote]BIGRAGOO wrote:
NNNNate wrote:
I do know . . . because of reading books and articles on the subject . . . and NOT paying attention to the big guys in my gym.

Ok, so the next question is: Are you a big guy in your gym?[/quote]

[quote]NNNNate wrote:
I’m in the top 25%. And most of those that are bigger are older.

BIGRAGOO wrote:
NNNNate wrote:
I do know . . . because of reading books and articles on the subject . . . and NOT paying attention to the big guys in my gym.

Ok, so the next question is: Are you a big guy in your gym?[/quote]

And you believe that you have nothing to learn from any of them? I’m not knocking reading up on the subjects, I’m suggesting that these guys have probably been through plateaus and have anecdotal advice on how they got big. Aka, the good stuff.

Sorry for the long boring life story essay reply but Ive got a lot of work to do right now for my uni course which puts me into essay write mode in order to avoid it (Im always at my most talkative/philosophical when I should be doing something else). This post has got me into rant mode so here I go.

Basically just wanted to say I can relate to the being a big guy accused of bad form bit myself. My body weight is currently pushing 235lb (here in Aus its only just starting spring and Ive been bulking up big time) so I think some people (the newbies) at the gym think Im just a big fat guy there to lose a bit of weight or something (cause skinny lean looking beginner type dudes seem to be fore ever amazed judging by their shocked expressions that Im lifting a hell of a lot more than them despite out weighing them by probably 1.5 times). I get looks of how can this fat slob of the street be lifting more than a lean muscley trained dude like me (even though Ive been training twenty years and them probably one or two).

Im only just getting over some sort of shoulder strain/injury (maybe rotor cuff) or something thats limited my bench in the last year or so. (In top form I do four sets of five reps with 315 pounds on the bench press or sometimes just go for an hour at 3 reps per set with 315lb with 5 min between reps, can do it all day like that, in normal condition). Anyway this last year due to shoulder pain/strain limitations Ive only been working out with 225lb to 245lb on the bench press. (Only got back to a set of six reps with 265lb this last work out).

Anyway because Im going light (i.e. light for me, my body has benched 365lb before) when benching 225lb I do it really fast and explosively. I dont believe in tempo stuff just do it at the rate that feels comfortable for me. For 315lb that comfortable rate is quite slow, I cant rapidly decelerate 315lb like I can 225lb, but when I do 225lb I do it damn fast. At 225lb I pretty much just drop the bar under gravity (even pull it down to my chest) then suddenly stop it less than an inch from my chest but usually dont touch what so ever at all or if I do its only a light touch, then I explosively push back up.

Yet a couple of times I have heard people (behind my back; or perhaps Im just paranoid) comment to their mates that Im only lifting that much because Im bouncing it off my chest, yet I dont even touch the damn thing. That really pisses me off. (In the days decades ago when I did bounce it off my chest Id end up with bruises and it hurt like hell, you really cant bounce that much weight off your ribs anyway). Yet there are these skinny dudes fantasizing they too could be pushing 300lb if they too were prepared to cheat by bouncing it off their chest (yeah Id like to see that without a squat).

The other day I saw out of the corner of my eye while Im benching a group of skinny guys watching me with smirks on their faces (then again maybe Im just paranoid and fantasizing what they are thinking). I thought I bet they think Im bouncing it off my chest. So to prove a point instead of lowering the bar over my lower pec/rib area I do around five (rapid) reps with 225lb (it was my 2nd warm up set) lowering the bar over my throat instead - as if to say to them, do you really reckon Im bouncing 225lb off my throat. Anyway when I stand up one of the guys says to his mates (who were all watching me) ‘strong neck’ (then quickly turns his back to me). (He was surely joking but grrrrrrr).

Anyway on the topic of getting results despite using bad form heres an example from my own case. I think within a year of starting body building I was repping away with 95lb BB curls long before I could do them anything like properly (in that case I really was cheating and like nothing else) yet within a year or two or three (however long it was) I had not increased the weight I curled any, instead I was simply doing the same 95lb weight with very strict reps (hardly moving a muscle, still as a statue apart from moving biceps).

Even after several years of training I still wasnt lifting much more than 95lb BB curls (115 at the most) yet I experienced a substantial arm size increase, in fact I once had them up to 18 3/4’’ (at a body weight of about 210lb) (they are now down to about 17’’ 1/2 but dont/cant train arms or anything else with anything like the ridiculous volumn I once did when I was younger). Anyway moral of the story is that in that case I made good progress despite the fact that I started out using sloppy form (the progress I made was keeping the weight the same but tightening up the form, perhaps a non conventional way of doing it but it still worked).

Heres another example of bad form getting good results (albeit its a bit off topic being in a different field to body building but same principle). I was watching a cro-cop MMA video the other day and after a couple of minutes of him and the other guy dancing round not doing much with the other guy doing a lot of faking, suddenly out of nowhere cro-cop does his trade mark lightning fast round house to the side of the guys head and the guy drops like a sack of potatoes. Cro-cops ability to successfully take out his opponents with a round house kick to the side of the head never ceases to amaze me as Ive made probably thousands of attempts over three years of Taekwondo sparring (yeah I know T’do is crap) to do just that but only succeeded twice (fortunately once was in state competition) and I know just how hard it is to do that.

Yet as I replayed the video on slow mo I saw that crocop didnt quickly snap his kick back like he should (so as to avoid his opponent being able to grab hold of it) but just let the leg drop down keeping it straight. Now that is a basic white belt level mistake and he wouldnt even pass his first yellow belt grading in a competent Taekwondo club (if there is such a thing) with a sloppy technique like that. Yet crocops sloppy round house kick technique (ie sloppy by traditional MA standards) is far fasting that mine ever was and much more successful than me and probably millions of other martial artists out there with better form at using it to take out opponents.

The moral of the story being that a kick or punch done with bad form doesnt suddenly become harmless and ineffective because its not done with the ideal form that some martial arts school teaches. (In cro cops case his opponents tend to be unconscious anyway at the end of his high roundhouse kick so I guess how he retracts his kick doesnt matter too much anyway). Its also an example of an expert at an at an art getting away with breaking a rule that is still a good rule for novices to follow.

To sum up then, bad form can still get good results (the laws of biology and physics don’t necesarily know what good or bad from is supposed to be according to the human experts).

Often though the supposed expert who looks like he is cheating to the newbie probably knows what hes doing any way (and probably isnt doing things as badly as the newbie thinks he is).

[quote]NNNNate wrote:
Should I also take the nutritional advice from the most muscular guys I know?
[/quote]

Sorry ive already written once long essay reply and this could start me on another rant, maybe tomorrow.

Are there individual big guys who get big despite what they do/dont do and not because of it (but because of genetics or roids)? Sure, probably. But by and large the guys with the best knowledge of how to get big will be found among those who are big as opposed to those who are small.

Just as a guy who writes a book on how to becomes a billionaire but who lives in a trailer park himself isn’t the best person to advise you on how to become a billionair (though in theory he could have such knowledge) so to a guy who claims to know how to build a body builder level physique but who hasnt got any serious muscle himself is not the best guy to learn body building from (not for my money any way, even though in theory a skinny guy could know how hard gainers build muscle but simply have never chosen to use it for himself).

I could rant for pages about this maybe tomorrow.

And as for ther being lots of big guys running around seriously claiming that you get big by getting pissed all the time Ill have to say ‘yeah right’ back to you on that one.

[quote]NNNNate wrote:
Should I also take the nutritional advice from the most muscular guys I know?
Like don’t consume pre or post workout nutrition, get really drunk two nights a week, eat at most 3 times a day.
Riiiiiight.

rswa wrote:
BIGRAGOO wrote:
[Applause, Applause] [Clapping loudly]
Thank you X again for busting through the bullshit.

Ditto

[/quote]

In any case the thing I was saying ditto to (an indirect ditto I guess) was this post by prof X (where nutrition is not actually being mentioed).

Though as it happens I would also claim that on the nutrition issue sucessful bodybuilders (big muscley dudes) will tend to have better knowledge of the best diets to follow for body building than unsucessful body builders (i.e. small dudes).

In particular I was saying ditto to the first paragrpah below.

[quote]ProfX wrote:
I think this is bullshit. I truly believe there are some of you who would look at a bodybuilder with 20" arms and assume he’s weak. That’s retarded. It takes much strength to gain a lot of size. Also, this form issue has been touched on before. Someone much larger can get away with cheating more while still working their target muscle group more than a beginner could ever hope to.

I personally don’t go through a text book full range of motion when bench pressing. My training evolved into that, however, and I know what part of the exercise stresses my chest the most while also keeping me out of injury.

I think some of you could possibly learn more from the people you wanyt to critisize than you even realize. If some guy is truly that damn large and trains consistently, what honestly makes you think that they are dumber than you?

[/quote]

[quote]NNNNate wrote:

So after this (and reading more advanced and specific info on building muscles) . . . who needs to pay attention to the big guy using the smith machine for squats?

[/quote]

You have the same attitude I have been seeing a lot lately, especially on this form. It is an attitude like you can’t learn anything from anyone else or that everyone else is less informed than you simply because you read. There is much to be said for experience. I have been through a lot of schooling, however, the one thing I always heard from older people in my profession is that you don’t really learn until you get out of school. Books provide knowledge and should definitely be utilized. However, having a working understanding of that knowledge is completely different. If you truly walk around believing that people who are bigger than you offer no further understanding or insight in the weight room, you are a fool. That is all I can say. Honestly, you can learn SOMETHING from anyone.

This thread began as if the larger lifters observed were doing it “wrong” because it wasn’t in text book fashion. Most experienced lifters will tell that it doesn’t always need to be in text book fashion, especially if your arms exceed the average by 3-4 inches and you are massively built. The one fact that stands true, is that if they were lifting so wrong, they would have been seriously injured long before they ever got that big. Minor cheating can AID gains in muscle mass on some exercises.

The belief that big bodybuilders are all weaklings and that it doesn’t take much strength to get big is such a ridiculous notion that I am tired of hearing it.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
NNNNate wrote:

So after this (and reading more advanced and specific info on building muscles) . . . who needs to pay attention to the big guy using the smith machine for squats?

You have the same attitude I have been seeing a lot lately, especially on this form. It is an attitude like you can’t learn anything from anyone else or that everyone else is less informed than you simply because you read. There is much to be said for experience. I have been through a lot of schooling, however, the one thing I always heard from older people in my profession is that you don’t really learn until you get out of school. Books provide knowledge and should definitely be utilized. However, having a working understanding of that knowledge is completely different. If you truly walk around believing that people who are bigger than you offer no further understanding or insight in the weight room, you are a fool. That is all I can say. Honestly, you can learn SOMETHING from anyone.

This thread began as if the larger lifters observed were doing it “wrong” because it wasn’t in text book fashion. Most experienced lifters will tell that it doesn’t always need to be in text book fashion, especially if your arms exceed the average by 3-4 inches and you are massively built. The one fact that stands true, is that if they were lifting so wrong, they would have been seriously injured long before they ever got that big. Minor cheating can AID gains in muscle mass on some exercises.

The belief that big bodybuilders are all weaklings and that it doesn’t take much strength to get big is such a ridiculous notion that I am tired of hearing it.[/quote]

Amen brother!!! Seriously I feel the same.

When I look at all the big guys in the gyms I’ve been to, I’ve mostly seen guys who completely neglect one area of their body (like the back or legs), never do a squat or deadlift (unless using the smith machine), or advise me to use some NO2 supplement post workout “It’s got zero carbs!”
Taking advice from these people would be stupid. I am very lucky that there were no big guys around in the gym when I first started (except for the kid who snorted some white powder before he started and then did a bunch of nautilus curls and overhead presses then called it a day . . . maybe I should have followed his advice?)
Have I received good advice from big guys in the gym? Of course . . . actually I can only think of one occasion.
Keep in mind, there are probably some thick-headed guys reading this thinking I’m defending smaller guys just because I haven’t mentioned them.
Your chances are far worse taking advice from someone small. There.
And about adding a working knowledge to supplement your book knowledge . . . no shit. This happens when you’re in the gym.
The rest of your post has nothing to do with me.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

You have the same attitude I have been seeing a lot lately, especially on this form. It is an attitude like you can’t learn anything from anyone else or that everyone else is less informed than you simply because you read. There is much to be said for experience. I have been through a lot of schooling, however, the one thing I always heard from older people in my profession is that you don’t really learn until you get out of school. Books provide knowledge and should definitely be utilized. However, having a working understanding of that knowledge is completely different. If you truly walk around believing that people who are bigger than you offer no further understanding or insight in the weight room, you are a fool. That is all I can say. Honestly, you can learn SOMETHING from anyone.

This thread began as if the larger lifters observed were doing it “wrong” because it wasn’t in text book fashion. Most experienced lifters will tell that it doesn’t always need to be in text book fashion, especially if your arms exceed the average by 3-4 inches and you are massively built. The one fact that stands true, is that if they were lifting so wrong, they would have been seriously injured long before they ever got that big. Minor cheating can AID gains in muscle mass on some exercises.

The belief that big bodybuilders are all weaklings and that it doesn’t take much strength to get big is such a ridiculous notion that I am tired of hearing it.[/quote]

[quote]NNNNate wrote:
When I look at all the big guys in the gyms I’ve been to, I’ve mostly seen guys who completely neglect one area of their body (like the back or legs), never do a squat or deadlift (unless using the smith machine), or advise me to use some NO2 supplement post workout “It’s got zero carbs!”
Taking advice from these people would be stupid. I am very lucky that there were no big guys around in the gym when I first started (except for the kid who snorted some white powder before he started and then did a bunch of nautilus curls and overhead presses then called it a day . . . maybe I should have followed his advice?)
Have I received good advice from big guys in the gym? Of course . . . actually I can only think of one occasion.
Keep in mind, there are probably some thick-headed guys reading this thinking I’m defending smaller guys just because I haven’t mentioned them.
Your chances are far worse taking advice from someone small. There.
And about adding a working knowledge to supplement your book knowledge . . . no shit. This happens when you’re in the gym.
The rest of your post has nothing to do with me.
[/quote]

Well you lift exclusively in the dumb section of the nation. The big guys I have seen and still see are competitors. They neglect nothing. Maybe some of your insight has been clouded by a rare population of mirror muscle freaks.

My ex training partner is a big dude (6’4 and 310 pounds) and he never squats, deadlifts, Benches dips or chins. He hasn’t access to the internet and is not open to new training ideas, a few time i have told him about some of the articles on here, Chads training routines etc. But he’s not interested, but then i guess if your at 22.5 stone, your way is the best way. He does train heavy but the form is never that strict. He’s been on gear for almost 5 years now and he stopped any cardio about two years ago. We used to spar and box together back in the day, now he’d be exhausted after a few punches and gets out of breath just going up a flight of stairs!? His one big mean muther at the moment, but if i’m honest he looked better at a leaner 265.

I think the central theme of this thread is (if we assume that the first poster sets the issue) ‘how do guys train horribly yet get big’.

[quote]danmaftei wrote:
The point is, how do these guys get so big? They train horribly![/quote]

I would argue that if someone is successfully getting big then by definition they are not training horribly as horrible training is by definition that training which is not likely to get you big (or likely to injure you).

If you are really big and well proportioned (and uninjured) then whatever training you did to get that way worked for you (that?s a tautology of course). Point being that a guy with big lean well proportioned muscles knows how he got that way and what ever training/eating/drug regimen got him that way was a good regimen for him (in terms of getting him big lean and well proportioned).

As the human race has 99.9% genetic code in common (or some such figure I was reading the other day in New Scientist or somewhere) the afore mentioned big guys training regimen is likely to work for a large number of other people as well as themselves (even if for some guys that group of people for whom his routine will work will consists of those individuals who are using steroids and who have a similar number and type of recpetors to himself - for those people at least he will be an expert). So they are likely to be an expert on what works for training at least some other people if not most other people.

The other topic that has arisen in the course of this thread is should we take training advice from afore mentioned guys. I think the answer to that question depends on what you mean by taking advice. Personally I follow my own program and have for years (all but my first two years actually) but I am always willing to experiment with new ideas from reading this site or other sites or talking to other people in the gym. I dont follow anyones advice blindly but I always like to hear what other people do for body building particularly if they are successful in terms of building their own physique (i.e. if they are big guys). I may or may not take it on board but I?ll think about it.

(It also goes without saying that if you think someone is big but badly proportioned or on steroids but you are not or you know they were big before they even lifted a weight and yet they haven’t gained anything weight training then you may not want to take their advice for you).

Is it possible for our hypothetical big guys we are arguing about to believe in extraneous things which dont really help? Sure it is but they are also likely to have the basics right. Getting the first three quarters to ninety percent of your genetic potential is not exaclty rocket sciece in my opinion. Squeezing the last twenty five to ten percent or your potential takes more expertise and thats where sites like this with our resident expert article writers are a great help.

Though if I meet another guy in the gym (or on these forums)that has really maxed out his physique in terms of size and proportion and leaness then I will always be interested to know what he did to get that way.

I never understand this topic when it comes up.

Before I switched to training at home the biggest, most muscular guys were the ones that trained the hardest and did deadlifts and squats etc.

They did a lot of isolation work too but when the did compound lifts they did a lot of weight.

These guys were bodybuilders too.

There were no powerlifters or olympic lifters in my gym, so maybe the body builders are weaker than the power lifters, but they sure as hell are stronger than everyone else.

I couldn’t read all the replies but I’m getting the jist of it and I’d like to add my two cents since I have two cents to spare :slight_smile: A couple of brief points;

  1. Someone mentioned genetics - certainly an issue yes;

  2. Drugs are certainly a potential issue; however,

  3. The big one I think everyone is missing - and its been said in these very pages by more than one competent coach: EVERTHING WORKS. System A may not be the best, but its better than nothing. I think Dr. Squat said it once that there is good better and best. Just about any type of training, with bad form, ill conceived set rep split schemes, etc etc etc are better than nothing and more importantly, will illicit a training effect. The issue is always could you illicit a better training effect with modifications to that system.

My final thought is your perception; your perception of a situation is limited by your own knowledge - someone eloquently pointed out that speed benching would be viewed as bad form by those uninitiated to the technique - perhaps you witnessed one or more movements/techniques you weren’t familiar with. I too, when I had to suffer going to a commercial gym, remember those odds looks as I did some WSB movement. The other issue relative to your perception is their size - maybe they are large to you, but in the grand scheme of things aren’t really that large? Maybe your observations of their training ARE correct and they are going as far as they can go with that training program - and, maybe, just maybe, they’re not has HYOOOGE as you think?

I hear all the time of guys being jacked etc and they weigh in at 230 or so with a 300 bench. As a 275lb powerlifter who can manage 400 raw, drug free with crappy leverages, that aint jacked to me :slight_smile: Guys like Tate et al are jacked. So you see, our perception of anything we witness and characterize is limited.

Just some food for thought and my 02.

Steve

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
The big one I think everyone is missing - and its been said in these very pages by more than one competent coach: EVERTHING WORKS. System A may not be the best, but its better than nothing. I think Dr. Squat said it once that there is good better and best. Just about any type of training, with bad form, ill conceived set rep split schemes, etc etc etc are better than nothing and more importantly, will illicit a training effect. The issue is always could you illicit a better training effect with modifications to that system.
[/quote]

Yeah good point.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Before I switched to training at home the biggest, most muscular guys were the ones that trained the hardest and did deadlifts and squats etc.
[/quote]

me too…the biggest guys I’ve seen at gyms through out the last 20 years have always done some form of squats, benches, and deadlifts…

I’ve never seen someone that I would consider big that didn’t do some form of the three big lifts on a regular basis…

BIGRAGOO and Prof,

I think that’s probably the issue. I have never come in contact with a professional. And no one on this thread defined what “big” was and certainly never said “big” was defined only as professional bodybuilders. I thought we were talking about the biggest people in our respective gyms . . . mine are not professional.
And of course I ask what their leg routine is. Obviously they could be walking into the gym when I’m not there.
As far as me living in some backwoods dumbass part of the country . . . heh heh I think Umass Amherst would qualify. In fact, I’ve rarely trained in the gym near anyone who was 25+, let alone someone that old and “big”. All the big guys I’ve seen are young so that probably skews my perception. If you’re training in gyms with professional bodybuilders, good for you. I suspect most people cannot say the same and therefore should err towards my point of view of ignoring other gymgoers.
And BIGRAGOO, I can’t believe you said my perception “has been clouded by a rare population of mirror muscle freaks.” Rare?! These people are the rule unless you’re training somewhere special.

I’m just going to jump in and say I wasn’t criticizing the big guys for being stupid, I was simply wondering how they got so big, when almost everything I’ve read on this site has said that doing cheat curls and half squats and no deadlifts etc. etc. will get you nowhere.

Just like to point that out… I’m a small guy myself, anyong more than 200 lbs who isn’t fat is a God to me.