Big Challenge (I Think) for the Group

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
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(Advanced warning: This first post is really long!)

This is my first post in the “Bodybuilding” forum. I notice that this forum gets far more posts than any of the others, so this seems to be where the people that really know their stuff hang out! As for me, I probably wouldn’t even have the guts to post here (I definitely don’t know my stuff when it comes to bodybuilding), but I got such valuable feedback from a thread I started in the “Supplements and Nutrition” forum that I finally got the nerve to “bare my soul” here.

If you want to check out that thread:

http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1853536&pageNo=0

To make a long story short, I thought I’d benefit the T-Nation crowd with my report on a personal trial of Carbolin 19. At that time, I knew I was pretty lame in the “bodybuilding” department; in fact, I seriously hesitate to use that term at all, since you would hardly know I’ve ever set foot in a gym to look at me. Sad. In any event, in the course of trying to solve my body fat percentage problem (currently somewhere around 20%) by supplementing my lame efforts with Carbolin 19 for about four months, I came to realize (thanks to a few guys who responded to my posts with some decent criticism) that I’m pretty much wasting six hours a week at the gym.

My so-called training routine stinks, I don’t have my nutrition nailed down by any stretch, and I’m probably just now beginning to understand proper supplementation for a guy like me.

I was just checking out Stronghold’s thread titled “Excuses”. What a great one!! This inspired me to start off my presence here by ticking you all off… So, here’s my list of official excuses why my body composition is beyond sad, even for someone who’s only been really making an effort in this area for about the last couple of years:

  1. I’m a skinny-fat hardgainer. Phillip Nation recently posted an article on T-Nation stating that this body type is going to have the hardest time out of everyone trying to build a decent physique. I fit his definition exactly. Check out the article: http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=2024881

  2. Along the lines of #1 above, when I eat like I want to add muscle mass (lots of clean food, including 150 grams or more per day protein), about 90% of the weight I put on (which goes on very fast) goes right to the flab around my belly. So much for abs.

  3. Along the lines of #2 above, I used to weigh 250 pounds (all fat, no muscle). I dieted in all the wrong ways and got down to about 150 pounds (still no muscle). Today, I’m up to 165 pounds, but still very little muscle. The theory from several doctors (real ones) I’ve spoken to: Fat cell hyperplasia occurred due to my extreme obesity, so now I’ve got about 2 billion extra fat cells that suck up every molecule of food that passes by them. Nice.

  4. I’m not naturally inclined toward a lot of muscle potential. Heard this one before? Consider this: I’ve read in several places (including T-Nation articles) that perhaps the single best measure of a person’s musculoskeletal system (and hence muscle-building potential) is their wrist size. Ready for this? My wrist circumference is 6 inches. That’s right, about the size of a nine-year-old girl. My hands are equally not-man-sized. My forearms follow suit, and do the math…

  5. Slight left forearm injury. I popped a few tendons there about a year and a half ago and just can’t seem to get past the pain. This is only a real issue during any bicep exercises, and not enough of a deal to really put in this list. But I’m trying to entertain you with my excuses!!

  6. Okay, now for a really serious injury: Right inguinal hernia (that’s the worst kind; in the groin) at 17 years old. Repaired. Then showed up again 20 years later at 37 years old. Repaired with mesh. A little scary when I’m trying to lift heavy weights! And how can I ever add an ounce of muscle without lifting heavy?? I can’t. BTW, I seem to be doing okay with this injury; no sign of impending recurrence, though I do feel a sharp pain in the area once in awhile. Really makes one think…

  7. Did you catch my age in #6? I’m 40 years old. I have a buddy that goes to the gym twice a week who’s a year younger than me. He hired a trainer who told him that guys our age have no business trying to add muscle mass. Gee, you guys could invent some new profanity just for this one alone! Trust me, I think that trainer is a total moron. I’m 40 and in the best shape of my life – yes, weak and flabby, but at least I’m not 250 pounds of fat anymore! And I’m here at T-Nation because I want to make real progress, and I completely believe I can!

BTW, checked out the “The Over 35 Lifter” forum here, but you won’t find me over there… All they seem to talk about there is low T levels and orthopedic shoes. Speaking of which, is Geritol a steroid? (Okay, apologies to all the posters over there… just joking!!!)

  1. After my jab at “The Over 35 Lifter” posts, guess what… I have low testosterone levels. No joke, my wife and I got checked out about a year ago, and her T levels were way higher than mine!! Not kidding at all. The somewhat good news here: I’m now on T replacement therapy (a topical cream that I put on a few times a week). Nice to have a sex drive again.

  2. Also low thyroid. Study this (on Wikipedia or wherever), and you’ll see that low thyroid means very hard to put on muscle and very easy to put on fat. Ditto for high thyroid. Strange, huh? So the trick is to get one’s thyroid levels just right. After months of “experimenting”, I do think I’m now on just about the right does of T3/T4 (natural thyroid supplement)…

  3. I’d give you one more excuse here why I look the way I do after so many thousands of hours in the gym, so much effort in the eating department, so much research into proper supplementation, etc., but I think a “Top 10” would force the powers that be to kick me off of T-Nation for good…

So, all that said, I wouldn’t be here if I didn’t think all of my excuses were completely baseless and without any real merit at all. I believe that I can improve my body composition for real! I believe that I can gain some serious muscle weight, get my fat % down to 10%, and actually look and feel like someone who lifts weights. But I need some advice. Believe me, I’ve read hundreds of posts here, I’ve read every article that’s been posted in the last year, and I have a high enough IQ to “get it”. But somehow I’m not getting it. The info I need is here, but I’m missing it somehow…

I was going to post my training routine and nutrition habits, but this post is way too long already. Check out my “Carbolin 19 Trial” thread if you want to see those right now, otherwise I’ll plan to post this info in this thread once the ball gets rolling…

Okay, ready to get my butt kicked by the group!!! Let the flaming begin (hopefully intermingled with at least a little bit of useful advice)…

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Hmmm… 100 views and no replies. Okay, here’s my training routine:

Training:
Monday: Bench Press, 5 sets, 5 to 8 reps/set
Incline Bench, 5 sets, 5 to 8 reps/set
Decline Bench, 5 sets, 5 to 8 reps/set
Seated Row, 5 sets, 5 to 8 reps/set
Lat Pull, 5 sets, 5 to 8 reps/set
Leg Curl, 5 sets, 5 to 8 reps/set
Leg Extension, 5 sets, 5 to 8 reps/set
Calf Raise, 5 sets, 5 to 8 reps/set

Wednesday: Military Press, 5 sets, 5 to 8 reps/set
Bicep Curl, 5 sets, 5 to 8 reps/set
Tricep (cable down), 5 sets, 5 to 8 reps/set
Forearm Curl (under), 5 sets, 5 to 8 reps/set
Forearm Curl (over), 5 sets, 5 to 8 reps/set

Friday: Same as Monday

Then the following week, the Wednesday routine occurs on Monday and Friday, and the Monday routine goes to Wednesday. Make sense? So I simply alternate the upper body routine each workout. Lower body is always Monday and Friday.

Everything is done with free weights to the extent possible, and I use very heavy weights (for me; example, 225 on bench press). I make sure the weight is heavy enough that I really have to work hard on the last rep, and often can only squeeze out four. I believe my form and style is good, but always working to improve.

I begin each weightlifting session with five fairly intense minutes on the treadmill (just for warmup), and then end with 10 minutes of intense treadmill. (“Intense”: 6 to 7 mph, random hills)

I was also running 3 to 4 miles at least a couple of days a week, but stopped this recently when I read in a T-Nation article that that simply eats up one’s muscle (which is sparse enough on me!). However, based on recommendation of other posters, I’m working this back in. One day/week so far…

I think that’s it for my training. I also make sure to get a good night’s sleep every night (plenty of rest).

When I posted this routine on my earlier thread, several guys let me know that I should ditch the isolation exercises in favor of compound exercises. Ready to make this change, but not sure of the right routine…

What do you guys know about Rippetoe’s program?

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The basic Rippetoe program is as follows:

Workout A
Squat 3 sets of 5
Flat bench 3 sets of 5
Deadlift 1 set of 5

Workout B
Squat 3 sets of 5
Military press 3 sets of 5
Power clean 5 sets of 3 OR Bent over row 3 sets of 5

You lift on three non-consecutive days each week alternating between A and B.

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[quote]kingdpt wrote:
The basic Rippetoe program is as follows:

Workout A
Squat 3 sets of 5
Flat bench 3 sets of 5
Deadlift 1 set of 5

Workout B
Squat 3 sets of 5
Military press 3 sets of 5
Power clean 5 sets of 3 OR Bent over row 3 sets of 5

You lift on three non-consecutive days each week alternating between A and B.[/quote]

Is this safe for someone prone to hernia? I think the mesh is holding up great, but still makes me a little nervous…

That said, do you think the Rippetoe program is the right course of action for someone like me at this stage (hernia aside)?

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[quote]speakman wrote:
Hmmm… 100 views and no replies. [/quote]
no responses save for one because there really isn’t a question asked. This appears to be something for a personal diary.
Best of luck to you.
As far as that ass wipe trainer, there is a good and valid reason for people well into their 80’s to gain lean muscle mass.

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[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
speakman wrote:
Hmmm… 100 views and no replies.
no responses save for one because there really isn’t a question asked. This appears to be something for a personal diary.
Best of luck to you.
As far as that ass wipe trainer, there is a good and valid reason for people well into their 80’s to gain lean muscle mass.

[/quote]

Fair enough… My first post was pretty long-winded, and I guess I wasn’t clear that I’m seeking some serious advice from the group. I just can’t seem to add a pound of muscle even with all my effort, though my body grabs every opportunity to try to pack the fat back on. Very frustrating.

As mentioned, in a previous thread I started over in “Supplements and Nutrition” several posters advised that my training routine (see my second post above) is fairly worthless. At that point, I thought I’d take this issue here, since this seems to be where the main bodybuilding discussions are going on…

That said, I guess I’m hoping for some additional feedback on my training routine. I know it’s mostly isolation movements, but is there enough compound stuff there to reasonably expect some muscle gain?

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Youre not going to get any flaming from me. Im glad my post provided the kick in the ass you needed.

Its amazing how quickly all of those “I have bad genetics” etc. excuses dry up once you start eating and training the right way. I would up your protein to closer to 1.5x bw. A solid beginner strength program is a good way to go, but dont forget to do SOME cardio. I know a lot of people here will tell you that you cant do cardio if youre trying to put on muscle, but for some of us, its a necessity. Check out G-flux by Berardi. Your goal should be to be as active as possible and allow your activity levels dictate your caloric intake rather than the other way around.

Best of luck to you, but lucks got nothing to do with it. Ill be checking up on this.

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[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Youre not going to get any flaming from me. Im glad my post provided the kick in the ass you needed.

Its amazing how quickly all of those “I have bad genetics” etc. excuses dry up once you start eating and training the right way. I would up your protein to closer to 1.5x bw. A solid beginner strength program is a good way to go, but dont forget to do SOME cardio. I know a lot of people here will tell you that you cant do cardio if youre trying to put on muscle, but for some of us, its a necessity. Check out G-flux by Berardi. Your goal should be to be as active as possible and allow your activity levels dictate your caloric intake rather than the other way around.

Best of luck to you, but lucks got nothing to do with it. Ill be checking up on this.[/quote]

Thank you so much! I was beginning to think I’d made some kind of faux pas by starting this thread… Sounds like you got my point exactly!! I have every “excuse” in the world not to succeed at building a decent physique, but I refuse to be dictated to by any of them! I may need to work harder (both physically and mentally) than a 20-year-old with excellent genes, but I’m no stranger to hard work… I plan to figure this puzzle out, and am 100% confident I will now that I’ve come to the right place. (More levity: I actually have a subscription to Men’s Health magazine. Oh, well, fun bathroom reading…)

Your comments on cardio are greatly appreciated: For some of us, it does seem to be a necessity. My body seems to love the 20% BF range, and running a few miles a couple of times a week seems to be my best hope of getting this under control. A guy called Beatnik over on my “Carbolin 19 Trial” thread also suggested some good cardio is not to be feared, and Lonnie123 (an especially helpful poster) even suggested that I may be able to burn off some of this fat AND add some muscle weight at the same time. Just imagine!

Adding that much more protein to my diet (going from 1x to 1.5x) seems counter-intuitive to the fat loss aspect, but your subsequent point about letting my activity level dictate my caloric intake is very well put!

Checking out the G-flux program right now…

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[quote]speakman wrote:
kingdpt wrote:
The basic Rippetoe program is as follows:

Workout A
Squat 3 sets of 5
Flat bench 3 sets of 5
Deadlift 1 set of 5

Workout B
Squat 3 sets of 5
Military press 3 sets of 5
Power clean 5 sets of 3 OR Bent over row 3 sets of 5

You lift on three non-consecutive days each week alternating between A and B.

Is this safe for someone prone to hernia? I think the mesh is holding up great, but still makes me a little nervous…

That said, do you think the Rippetoe program is the right course of action for someone like me at this stage (hernia aside)?

[/quote]

Give me a break, i have a hernia as we speak… a big one in the middle of my stomach… won’t stop me doing fuck all except crunches!! Squats, DL, Push press, snatch… the lot! You had your fixed already!

Seriously though, if you strengthen your “core” (*puke) all nice and strong and tight… you should be good to progress from a low level in squat and DL safely. Go slow and progression is name of game… no jumps from 135lbs to 225lbs overnight.

But there is no way in hell i gonna read any of your post… its too long. sorry mate. short attention spa…

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My first update:

First of all, thanks for all the feedback so far, and my apologies for being long-winded by nature (seem to have a reputation for that, on and off the Web)…

In any event, I’m proud to report that today I did something completely out of character. You all know that guys like me (stuck in a rut doing the same crappy routine for two years, getting very little results, etc.) are the most resistant to change. I was accused on the other thread of trying to “reinvent the wheel” instead of finding and using a proven routine. How true!! As I’ve reported, I’ve been married to endless sets and reps of a bunch of different isolation exercises, etc. So, what I’m proud of: This is what today’s workout was supposed to look like, based on the routine I’ve been stuck in for so long:

Bench Press, 5 sets, 5 to 8 reps/set
Incline Bench, 5 sets, 5 to 8 reps/set
Decline Bench, 5 sets, 5 to 8 reps/set
Seated Row, 5 sets, 5 to 8 reps/set
Lat Pull, 5 sets, 5 to 8 reps/set
Leg Curl, 5 sets, 5 to 8 reps/set
Leg Extension, 5 sets, 5 to 8 reps/set
Calf Raise, 5 sets, 5 to 8 reps/set

Here’s what I did instead:

3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press
1x5 Deadlift
2x8 Dips

This, of course, is “Workout A” from the Rippetoe program. So, from mostly isolation exercises (and a whole bunch, at that) to just four compound exercises. I must admit, it felt weird to be in the gym for such a short amount of time. Kind of nice, actually!

Some comments:

Squat: I’d never done one before in my entire life. Fortunately, there were a couple of huge guys at the gym (seemed to have a clue) who noticed my form wasn’t quite right and offered some pointers. For this week, I’m lifting the bar only until I know I’ve got the form right.

Bench Press: I’ve been doing these for a long time, but only half reps. This was based on my friend’s trainer’s advice that “guys 40 and over should never do a full-range bench press since it’s just asking for a shoulder injury”. Can’t believe I bought that one. So, I had to drop my weight significantly to do a clean 3x5. 135 pounds total. I’ll work up!

Deadlift: What the heck is that! I don’t think I’ve ever even seen this one performed, believe it or not. But I watched a Web video before going to the gym, and the two guys mentioned above helped me with this one, too. Pretty wild stuff. Also just the bar until I’m comfortable with the form…

Dips: Okay, kind of proud of myself on this one. My form was reportedly fairly good on this, and I was able to perform both sets of 8 reps. Fairly shaky and wobbly, especially on the last couple of reps, but I know I’ll get good at this one pretty quickly…

So, I’d call this progress! Workout B will be on Thursday, and then Workout A again on Saturday, etc. My thought is I should stick with this routine for a couple of months until I really get my form right and get some decent weight added (both to the barbells, and hopefully to me, too!)…

Anyone have any feedback or advice at this point? (hope so…)

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it seems that you are VERY new to this. i suggest you do familiarize yourself by reading the articles that interest you. the authors are phenomenal and they all offer different wisdom.

and that name rippetoe is coming up again… although i do agree with the simplicity with the workout scheme, i dont condone the parameters or templates of the routine.

my advice is to use rippetoe, but use 3 x 12’s. like you mentioned about your squats, trying to lift heavy ass weight without knowing wtf is going on is trouble… hernia trouble. stick to the bar and gradually work yourself up. keep us posted.

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[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
it seems that you are VERY new to this. i suggest you do familiarize yourself by reading the articles that interest you. the authors are phenomenal and they all offer different wisdom.

and that name rippetoe is coming up again… although i do agree with the simplicity with the workout scheme, i dont condone the parameters or templates of the routine.

my advice is to use rippetoe, but use 3 x 12’s. like you mentioned about your squats, trying to lift heavy ass weight without knowing wtf is going on is trouble… hernia trouble. stick to the bar and gradually work yourself up. keep us posted.[/quote]

Do not listen to ANY of this advice.

Seriously, we have a beginner here who is just getting things together and is on a solid, time tested BEGINNERS routine and here you are telling him to do something different? Why should he take your word (an unknown personal trainer in some gym with no credentials and average personal results) over that of MARK RIPPETOE? Thats like taking Joe who manages the local Ruby Tuesday’s investment advice over Warren Buffet’s. I would also advise him to not get too caught up with all of the articles here because he is likely to get information overload doing that too.

OP, stick with the program youve got, its a good one.

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Stronghold has given you good advice and he has earned his stripes by working hard for several years now (at least).

I think most of your lack of progress in the gym can be blamed on bad advice and bad programs.

Learn the basic lifts and lean on the experienced guys that helped you in the gym. With your past injuries and age, keep the weight relatively low for the first couple of weeks on the new movements until you get comfortable with them.

After that, just keep adding weight, reps, or sets through various programs. Stick with each long enough for it to work though.

For newbies, this is a very simple endeavor that only requires hard work over a sustained amount of time. It only gets more complicated as you strive to reach the truly upper reaches of bodybuilding. You and I are nowhere near that point yet.

I hope that was somewhat coherent. Good luck with your training and goals!

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[quote]Stronghold wrote:
ZeusNathan wrote:
it seems that you are VERY new to this. i suggest you do familiarize yourself by reading the articles that interest you. the authors are phenomenal and they all offer different wisdom.

and that name rippetoe is coming up again… although i do agree with the simplicity with the workout scheme, i dont condone the parameters or templates of the routine.

my advice is to use rippetoe, but use 3 x 12’s. like you mentioned about your squats, trying to lift heavy ass weight without knowing wtf is going on is trouble… hernia trouble. stick to the bar and gradually work yourself up. keep us posted.

Do not listen to ANY of this advice.

Seriously, we have a beginner here who is just getting things together and is on a solid, time tested BEGINNERS routine and here you are telling him to do something different? Why should he take your word (an unknown personal trainer in some gym with no credentials and average personal results) over that of MARK RIPPETOE? Thats like taking Joe who manages the local Ruby Tuesday’s investment advice over Warren Buffet’s. I would also advise him to not get too caught up with all of the articles here because he is likely to get information overload doing that too.

OP, stick with the program youve got, its a good one.[/quote]

LOL first off i told him to USE rippetoe’s program.

“my advice is to use rippetoe”

i only SUGGESTED that he use 3 x 12 instead of 3 x 5. all you basically did was get mad about something that you thought i said. second, im sorry that you are the all knowing master guru because you dont workout, but just post here all day. truth is, you havent used rippetoe’s program. hence you dont have any personal truth to the efficacy of it. i on the other hand, train real people. try loading a heavy weight on a beginner with a bad back.

just you yourself, take a friend who’s never done squats, put on a heavy load and expect him to perform flawlessly with low risk of injury. and lastly, think before you speak. and dont come here to argue with me or others because its not the place for it. you can have a discussion in a more mature manner. dont even post a response to this because i wont respond.

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[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
LOL first off i told him to USE rippetoe’s program.

“my advice is to use rippetoe”

work on your reading comprehension. i only SUGGESTED that he use 3 x 12 instead of 3 x 5. all you basically did was get mad about something that you thought i said.
[/quote]

You told him to change the program. That program is no longer the same now that you changed the loading parameters that it was built around. Thats like saying “Do westside, but dont do max effort of dynamic effort work.” Why should he take your advice over Mark Rippetoe’s? Do you REALLY think you are more qualified than him? Hell, Im more qualified to give advice than your ass…which leads me to:

[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
second, im sorry that you are the all knowing master guru because you dont workout, but just post here all day. truth is, you havent used rippetoe’s program. hence you dont have any personal truth to the efficacy of it. i on the other hand, train real people. [/quote]

Really? I dont work out? I guess thats why I have a log here going back a year or so and progress pictures taken before I started that log? Maybe thats why I competed in a strongman competition last spring or why I lift more than you and outweigh you by 40 lbs? Where are you getting this shit? Who the fuck are you again? Arent you the kid who admits to having an inconsistent diet and claims that his hitched deadlift would be “good in competition” even though youve never competed before? How do you know that I havent used Rippetoe’s program or that I dont train people? Oh yeah, thats right. You dont.

Youre just making shit up because you KNOW you are wrong and you know you are unqualified to give advice. Seriously, the OP weighs 10 lbs more than you and appears, from your thread, to have close to the same level of bodyfat. You SHOULD NOT be giving advice. Sorry if that damages your fragile little ego.

[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
try loading a heavy weight on a beginner with a bad back. just you yourself, take a friend who’s never done squats, put on a heavy load and expect him to perform flawlessly with low risk of injury. [/quote]

Did you miss the part where he said he started with the bar and has experienced lifters helping him? Sounds like 1)not heavy weight and 2)help with technique. Pay attention newbie. Hes got this down, hes working within his limits and has people there to ensure that he is using the proper form.

[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
and lastly, think before you speak. and dont come here to argue with me or others because its not the place for it. you can have a discussion in a more mature manner. dont even post a response to this because i wont respond. [/quote]

Think before I speak? Take some of your own medicine there pal. Youre the one telling this guy to clusterfuck his program. That goes for “having a discussion in a more mature manner” too. You are the one that started making shit up about me ([quote]you dont workout, but just post here all day. truth is, you havent used rippetoe’s program. hence you dont have any personal truth to the efficacy of it. i on the other hand, train real people.[/quote]) because your advice was bad, mine was not, and you dont have shit in a pail for credibility. Somehow I feel like you are going to respond to this because youve got your 150 lb keyboard nuts swinging and you have to prove that you are right now.

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Zeus has knocked Rippetoe before. Clueless. AND he’s a personal trainer.

Great plan. Milk the program until you stall, deload, then keep going again. That should be a while looking at your numbers. I don’t have advice for all of your problems, but staying active, eating healthy, and hitting the iron (especially Rippetoe) is as simple as it can get. I have a tendency to gain in the love handle region as well. Still working on it though. First to add and last to go.

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Speakman, I have done Rippetoe and had great success. Here is my log:

http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1893072

The results are near the end. I plan on doing it again after I am done with my current fat loss phase.

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I wanted to post this for speakman just in case he was doubting the efficacy of the program.

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I think you are on the right track. Starting with the bar is a great option, even had you not had back troubles.

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[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
it seems that you are VERY new to this. i suggest you do familiarize yourself by reading the articles that interest you. the authors are phenomenal and they all offer different wisdom.

and that name rippetoe is coming up again… although i do agree with the simplicity with the workout scheme, i dont condone the parameters or templates of the routine.

my advice is to use rippetoe, but use 3 x 12’s. like you mentioned about your squats, trying to lift heavy ass weight without knowing wtf is going on is trouble… hernia trouble. stick to the bar and gradually work yourself up. keep us posted.[/quote]

arent you the guy that wants to look like brat pitt, but with a “good” deadlift?