Big Backs- What Kind of Rows Do You Do?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
21

[quote]J-J wrote:
trm91 wrote:
Yep true you’ve got me there. I was thinking more about how it allows for heavier weight and reduces lower back strain by increasing the intra-abdominal pressure, but i guess it came out wrong.

What i was trying to say was that when training for the movement, and trying to target the lats, i find it more effective to wear a weight belt because i dont have to focus on core stability as much

I just dont get from belts what many seem to. They are ‘ok’ but not great and as such i hardly ever use one for rows, squat, deads etc…

That said i am not a strong man either and never venture past 5-6 plates on anything.[/quote]

what can you squat/dead? id be surprised if you couldnt add some weight to both just from learning how to push out against the belt and build up that pressure.

22

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Hmnnn I always viewed movements in the vertical plane (chins, pulldowns etc) targeting the lats more so, and movements in the horizontal plane (various rows) as targeting more mid-back/thickness etc.

For my lats, I like to do Pulls standing in a cable station (eliminates the bicep assistance you get when doing pull downs), and close grip chins (get a much better stretch in the lats from a closer hand spacing, I don’t care what you think you read in Musclemag -lol).

For my midback, I like to do standing bent rows with 2 DBs simultaneously (started these a year or so ago, and just like them better than using a bar), and yates rows either by loading up a cambered (EZ) bar, or putting a cambered attachment on a low cable station.

As an aside, I’ll mention that for my lower traps (which might be considered ‘back’ muscles to some), I like to lay prone on an incline bench, and do front raises with a barbell, my hands spread out as far as I can on the actual bar, and getting a nice hard contraction at the top (sort of like a face pull).

S
[/quote]

Could you elaborate on the standing pulls in the cable station. And perhaps how the bicep is removed from the equation. This interests me.

23

[quote]dez6485 wrote:
J-J wrote:
trm91 wrote:
Yep true you’ve got me there. I was thinking more about how it allows for heavier weight and reduces lower back strain by increasing the intra-abdominal pressure, but i guess it came out wrong.

What i was trying to say was that when training for the movement, and trying to target the lats, i find it more effective to wear a weight belt because i dont have to focus on core stability as much

I just dont get from belts what many seem to. They are ‘ok’ but not great and as such i hardly ever use one for rows, squat, deads etc…

That said i am not a strong man either and never venture past 5-6 plates on anything.

what can you squat/dead? id be surprised if you couldnt add some weight to both just from learning how to push out against the belt and build up that pressure.
[/quote]

I seriously hate even front squatting 135 without a belt, it’s the only thing I use one for. Makes me feel so much tighter.

24

[quote]dez6485 wrote:
J-J wrote:
trm91 wrote:
Yep true you’ve got me there. I was thinking more about how it allows for heavier weight and reduces lower back strain by increasing the intra-abdominal pressure, but i guess it came out wrong.

What i was trying to say was that when training for the movement, and trying to target the lats, i find it more effective to wear a weight belt because i dont have to focus on core stability as much

I just dont get from belts what many seem to. They are ‘ok’ but not great and as such i hardly ever use one for rows, squat, deads etc…

That said i am not a strong man either and never venture past 5-6 plates on anything.

what can you squat/dead? id be surprised if you couldnt add some weight to both just from learning how to push out against the belt and build up that pressure.
[/quote]

Hmm maybe… i don’t really do maxes but as a (honest) guess i would say squat around 4 plates and dead around 5, both ME and straps for DL.

As i said, i have used a belt and i even own one (somewhere - not seen it for an age).

That said, i have a moderately sized abdominal hernia, and as such i do not ever ‘push’ my stomach out as this protrudes my intestine somewhat. It is altogether safer for me to keep sucked in as one would when not using a belt.

But you may have a point and i might just give it a go once i get stitched (i have been putting it off for a number of years as i cant handle the down time!).

Thanks for the reply :slight_smile:

25

Inveted rows anyone?

26

[quote]e55ex_b0y wrote:
Inveted rows anyone?

[/quote]

Inverted rows allow for what kind of progression exactly?

They’re nice after benching sessions and for training the muscles acting on the scapulae a little if you’re one of those guys who turns rows into lat+arm exercises rather than backthickness moves… But how on earth are you ever going to build a big back via inverted rows?

27

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
dez6485 wrote:
J-J wrote:
trm91 wrote:
Yep true you’ve got me there. I was thinking more about how it allows for heavier weight and reduces lower back strain by increasing the intra-abdominal pressure, but i guess it came out wrong.

What i was trying to say was that when training for the movement, and trying to target the lats, i find it more effective to wear a weight belt because i dont have to focus on core stability as much

I just dont get from belts what many seem to. They are ‘ok’ but not great and as such i hardly ever use one for rows, squat, deads etc…

That said i am not a strong man either and never venture past 5-6 plates on anything.

what can you squat/dead? id be surprised if you couldnt add some weight to both just from learning how to push out against the belt and build up that pressure.

I seriously hate even front squatting 135 without a belt, it’s the only thing I use one for. Makes me feel so much tighter.
[/quote]

Hm, maybe it’s because you’re one of the taller people around? I hate belts with a passion… Also never had any core trouble with front squats. I hear people say they get sore abs from them, but for some reason front-squats don’t seem to tire my core out at all. I get it much more from PL good mornings etc as I then have to really brace the abs to keep lower-back pain at bay…

Structure…

28

Compared to the rest of the population, most of T-Nation and me, that’s pretty strong dude. But i agree with you, increasing abdominal pressure while training with a hernia might not be such a good idea. Are you saying 4 plates a side or just 4 all up?

I only use a belt in ME work, and bent-over rows. Like i said, i dont have to focus on core activation and can use a bit more weight.

29

[quote]trm91 wrote:
Compared to the rest of the population, most of T-Nation and me, that’s pretty strong dude. But i agree with you, increasing abdominal pressure while training with a hernia might not be such a good idea. Are you saying 4 plates a side or just 4 all up?

I only use a belt in ME work, and bent-over rows. Like i said, i dont have to focus on core activation and can use a bit more weight.[/quote]

Yes, per side - but as i said, utterly ME.

I don’t consider it strong at all actually… as it is relative to the person. For one i am chemically assisted and dont seem to get much in the way of strength as other guys seem to from AAS etc strangely). I am just not built for strength, i have slim joints and a light frame (genetically).

My bench is screamingly low and has always been a curse (one that many ignorant fools like to take the piss out of - naming no names ;p)… so even at this point my ME bench with a spot (for psych effect) is just 3 a side.

I know lads younger than me and natty that do that. But again, they tend to be stocky and thick boned whereas i am most certainly not of that structure naturally.

But mostly it is just a general feeling i should be stronger for my development. But thanks anyway.

On to the OP - the first time i noticed i had a relatively built back was after a few months of doing DB rows. They are great for me.

I never really understand the point of these threads, other than no more than a list of potential exercises.
Exercise efficacy differs from person to person… for example for some a DB row will be uber effective and for others it will not develop much at all. Probably biomechanics/kinesiology but either way…

It is a common belief on this site that you should ask the biggest guy what works for him as they will know what they are doing… well is this the case?
Many big guys are big because they are naturally designed to be so… many look at a DB and grow.
I am a big fan of the necessity of putting the work in to find what works for you. Of course an intelligent convo. with someone more experienced will always shed light - but not to the degree you should emulate things.

JMO :wink:

30

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
dez6485 wrote:
J-J wrote:
trm91 wrote:
Yep true you’ve got me there. I was thinking more about how it allows for heavier weight and reduces lower back strain by increasing the intra-abdominal pressure, but i guess it came out wrong.

What i was trying to say was that when training for the movement, and trying to target the lats, i find it more effective to wear a weight belt because i dont have to focus on core stability as much

I just dont get from belts what many seem to. They are ‘ok’ but not great and as such i hardly ever use one for rows, squat, deads etc…

That said i am not a strong man either and never venture past 5-6 plates on anything.

what can you squat/dead? id be surprised if you couldnt add some weight to both just from learning how to push out against the belt and build up that pressure.

I seriously hate even front squatting 135 without a belt, it’s the only thing I use one for. Makes me feel so much tighter.

Hm, maybe it’s because you’re one of the taller people around? I hate belts with a passion… Also never had any core trouble with front squats. I hear people say they get sore abs from them, but for some reason front-squats don’t seem to tire my core out at all. I get it much more from PL good mornings etc as I then have to really brace the abs to keep lower-back pain at bay…

Structure…

[/quote]

I totally agree… front squats (and smith squats too for myself) are the least troublesome in this area - due to the position of the torso being so upright.

I can’t say my mid section gets tired from those lifts at all… low back? Definitely (which i know is also part of one’s ‘core’ of course).

31

[quote]J-J wrote:
kickureface wrote:

my erectors are much more powerful than my lats, so i need to get this stuff balanced.

When you say erectors… do you mean erectors or do you mean your lower back? If lower back then i suggest you minimise the unsupported BB rows for a little and try to focus on the mid/upper area using supported rows (DB rows are great for that IME)…

You could start with rack pulls or BB rows and then move onto DB rows, Supported Tbar, weighted chins and pulldowns… this is similar to what i am doing at the moment…

Or you could split the back into 2 sessions, 1)Mid back/rows 2)Lats/Pulls.

This should allow you to focus on the area you need easier and allow a greater volume to bring up the area…

If you are wanting muscle, dont be afraid to use machines and cables as well as FW ;)[/quote]

i’m mainly a strength trainer but i noticed my lats are often underutilized in any lift and some size would help. i was talkin about my upper erectors, the mid back around the shoulder blades.

32

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
e55ex_b0y wrote:
Inveted rows anyone?

Inverted rows allow for what kind of progression exactly?

They’re nice after benching sessions and for training the muscles acting on the scapulae a little if you’re one of those guys who turns rows into lat+arm exercises rather than backthickness moves… But how on earth are you ever going to build a big back via inverted rows?

[/quote]

The same way you progress on a rack chin etc… You just need to get a little creative with a weighted vest, or a backpack worn in reverse.

33

Kroc ‘fucking’ rows

34

Kroc rows
Deads
Pull-ups

Those are the only moves I have done for a year and I have made more progress then ever before. The key I believe is to find a few moves that you feel work good and then continue to progress on weight and reps. I like to keep it simple.

35

[quote]J-J wrote:
trm91 wrote:
Compared to the rest of the population, most of T-Nation and me, that’s pretty strong dude. But i agree with you, increasing abdominal pressure while training with a hernia might not be such a good idea. Are you saying 4 plates a side or just 4 all up?

I only use a belt in ME work, and bent-over rows. Like i said, i dont have to focus on core activation and can use a bit more weight.

Yes, per side - but as i said, utterly ME.

I don’t consider it strong at all actually… as it is relative to the person. For one i am chemically assisted and dont seem to get much in the way of strength as other guys seem to from AAS etc strangely). I am just not built for strength, i have slim joints and a light frame (genetically).

My bench is screamingly low and has always been a curse (one that many ignorant fools like to take the piss out of - naming no names ;p)… so even at this point my ME bench with a spot (for psych effect) is just 3 a side.

I know lads younger than me and natty that do that. But again, they tend to be stocky and thick boned whereas i am most certainly not of that structure naturally.

But mostly it is just a general feeling i should be stronger for my development. But thanks anyway.

[/quote]

I know chemical assistance certainly helps bring up your lifts, but it isn’t everything man. For one, you’re leaps and bounds stronger than most members of society, and you’re a bodybuilder (not that they’re not strong, just that strength is not the focus)

T-Nation is pretty elite, and aside from the big boys on here, i think that a 300lbs bench would be an aim for most people, me included. I know people who walk around with their fucking heads held high because they can bench 80kg (176lbs).

Plus you’re squat and dead numbers are pretty impressive, especially since you’re genetically limited as you say. But i guess we’ll always strive to do more, the curse of bodybuilding lol

36

[quote]kickureface wrote:
J-J wrote:
kickureface wrote:

my erectors are much more powerful than my lats, so i need to get this stuff balanced.

When you say erectors… do you mean erectors or do you mean your lower back? If lower back then i suggest you minimise the unsupported BB rows for a little and try to focus on the mid/upper area using supported rows (DB rows are great for that IME)…

You could start with rack pulls or BB rows and then move onto DB rows, Supported Tbar, weighted chins and pulldowns… this is similar to what i am doing at the moment…

Or you could split the back into 2 sessions, 1)Mid back/rows 2)Lats/Pulls.

This should allow you to focus on the area you need easier and allow a greater volume to bring up the area…

If you are wanting muscle, dont be afraid to use machines and cables as well as FW :wink:

i’m mainly a strength trainer but i noticed my lats are often underutilized in any lift and some size would help. i was talkin about my upper erectors, the mid back around the shoulder blades.[/quote]

The reason i wanted to confirm is simply as there is so much confusion from people when it comes to such things.

Like now - the erectors are not visible or particularly noticeable when worked at that point really… with the predominant muscle around there being the Trapezius and Rhomboids toward the spine and then the infraspinatus being the main muscle covering the shoulder blade - which you mentioned.
The erector spinae (as i am sure you know) run either side of the spine and consists of many many muscles and tendons… and are for the most part postural.

So as you can see… saying erectors doesn’t make much sense to me and is just confusing.

I understand that you want to increase lat size or involvement, but i am trying to determine what the problem may be first.
Is it that your traps and rhomboids (mid back) tend to get all the work in rows and stops the lats getting as much work?

If this is the case, then i would suggest looking at hand position on rown which will affect where you row the load to (the arc).
Rowing lower - so towards the abs or upper abs rather than the chest/lower chest will recruit the lats more… as will the reverse (Yates) grip.
DB rows will if you row low again; into the side parallel with the stomach.

Get a stretch in the pull ups and pull downs… which is IME more important than pulling (the weight; you or the stack) as high or as low as you can.

But mainly i would suggest you go light… get the feel for the lats recruiting when you pull at slight modifications and go from there… to do this well and properly may well take over a year… but you will be progressing that entire time of course.

If you do mean erectors and your posture then you’ll need to explain more! :wink:

37

[quote]trm91 wrote:
J-J wrote:
trm91 wrote:
Compared to the rest of the population, most of T-Nation and me, that’s pretty strong dude. But i agree with you, increasing abdominal pressure while training with a hernia might not be such a good idea. Are you saying 4 plates a side or just 4 all up?

I only use a belt in ME work, and bent-over rows. Like i said, i dont have to focus on core activation and can use a bit more weight.

Yes, per side - but as i said, utterly ME.

I don’t consider it strong at all actually… as it is relative to the person. For one i am chemically assisted and dont seem to get much in the way of strength as other guys seem to from AAS etc strangely). I am just not built for strength, i have slim joints and a light frame (genetically).

My bench is screamingly low and has always been a curse (one that many ignorant fools like to take the piss out of - naming no names ;p)… so even at this point my ME bench with a spot (for psych effect) is just 3 a side.

I know lads younger than me and natty that do that. But again, they tend to be stocky and thick boned whereas i am most certainly not of that structure naturally.

But mostly it is just a general feeling i should be stronger for my development. But thanks anyway.

I know chemical assistance certainly helps bring up your lifts, but it isn’t everything man. For one, you’re leaps and bounds stronger than most members of society, and you’re a bodybuilder (not that they’re not strong, just that strength is not the focus)

T-Nation is pretty elite, and aside from the big boys on here, i think that a 300lbs bench would be an aim for most people, me included. I know people who walk around with their fucking heads held high because they can bench 80kg (176lbs).

Plus you’re squat and dead numbers are pretty impressive, especially since you’re genetically limited as you say. But i guess we’ll always strive to do more, the curse of bodybuilding lol

[/quote]

Well thank-you very much. Compliments on this site are a rarity i must admit.

:slight_smile:

38

Thats alright, this site is supposed to be a brotherhood of iron is it not? We can’t criticise each other all the time. Plus i’m jealous of you, and the other guys who think they’re not strong. Hopefully i’ll get there one day

39

[quote]donovanbrambila wrote:

Could you elaborate on the standing pulls in the cable station. And perhaps how the bicep is removed from the equation. This interests me.[/quote]

I’ve always found that too many trainers who try to do wide grip pulls or chins end up fatiguing their biceps simply due to the nature of the movement (or their insatiable desire to hurl themselves up over the bar no matter how silly they look in doing so). Instead of regular overhand chins, I like to stand in the middle of a cable station, with the handles on the top attchaments, step back about a foot or so, and concentrate on doing just the back-portion of the motion without allowing my elbows to bend much (therby avoiding stressing my biceps).

I’ve referred to this a few times as scapular retractions, but I guess it really depends on the angle you pull at, and just how you position your body in so far as whether you are actually hitting mid-back or using this as a lat-stressing movement. I haven’t done a single overhand chin in about 2 years, and although it always felt great to me, I think the real validation of the movement was when I dieted down last may and could see all those ‘lumps and bumps’ in my back shots. :slight_smile:

S

40

[quote]e55ex_b0y wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
e55ex_b0y wrote:
Inveted rows anyone?

Inverted rows allow for what kind of progression exactly?

They’re nice after benching sessions and for training the muscles acting on the scapulae a little if you’re one of those guys who turns rows into lat+arm exercises rather than backthickness moves… But how on earth are you ever going to build a big back via inverted rows?

The same way you progress on a rack chin etc… You just need to get a little creative with a weighted vest, or a backpack worn in reverse.[/quote]

I know, but I can progress much better on kroc rows and such and if I get the elbows out a little and make sure that scapular retraction is the focus, then I can basically get my scapular manipulators much stronger than via inverted rows or face pulls alone.

I just don’t think that inverted rows should be the main exercise for the back… They’re a great addition though, no doubt.