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Bicipital Aponeurosis

What is the bicipital aponeurosis ?

What do they mean by an “expansion” ?

Does it actually insert to the ulna ?

biceps brachii insertions

http://ect.downstate.edu/courseware/haonline/labs/l07/010201.htm

Your other questions need to be expanded upon as far as context. What are you trying to find out and why?

Another site said that the bicipital aponeurosis “expands” into the muscles of the forearm. Does that mean it does not eventually insert into the ulna?

This is interesting because whenever you grip an object with the forearm muscles it would involve the activation of the biceps automatically. This makes sense for the role of stabilizing the elbow joint.

Is this “expansion” common to all the larger primates?

Do you know any sources for comparative anatomy?

[quote]Limbic wrote:
Another site said that the bicipital aponeurosis “expands” into the muscles of the forearm. Does that mean it does not eventually insert into the ulna?
[/quote]

That is how it “expands” into the forearm. You are taking this a tad bit too literally. Where is your ulna? Ever heard of a radius? Guess what part of your body that is.

How does this relate to nautilus? :stuck_out_tongue:

This first link I’ll give says the tendon inserts into the “tuberosity of the radius…”, understood, “…and fascia of forearm via bicipital aponeurosis.” Does the that mean the tendon inserts into the muscle fascia? The link you gave seems to show exactly that. And this link does not show the bicipital inserting into the ulna:

http://www.rad.washington.edu/atlas/bicepsbrachii.html

This second link has the part about the “expands”. Scroll down til the Tendinosis and Distally portion.

http://www.emedicine.com/pmr/topic16.html

Is it possible for a TENDON TO INSERT INTO SOMETHING OTHER THAN BONE? In this case a MUSCLE FASCIA?

Every time a human grips something it, at the least, potentiates a bicep contraction. No wonder humans like bicep work so much, being a gripping animal.

Umm, if I’m not mistaken, isn’t the purpose of muscle to connect between two bones and allow the application of force to cause or resist movement.

Implying that a tendon is used to cover distances from the end of the muscle belly to the bone – so yes, a tendon will connect on one end to bone and at the other to the muscle.

As for the activation of muscles other than the primary muscle, are we looking at stabilization here? It is common for muscles “around” the working muscle to assist in various ways.

Anyway, I don’t know jack shit about physiology or anatomy, but I don’t see the significant of your question yet.

Well, other than perhaps the bonus that jacking off a lot might be a new way to build biceps if you grip tightly?

The thing is some experts present extra insertions, originations, or joint actions. But you have to go with what is accepted by a majority of the experts and you have to look at many books and cadavers yourself to find this out. I believe it is possible for a muscle to insert into a fascia in some cases. The purpose being to move the fascia out of the way so it does not get pinched during a contraction. I believe the anconeus does that at the end of a tricep extension and I think there is a muscle in the hand around the thumb that does this as well. Not sure on that one though. I do not know where you are getting this idea of a bicep contraction with the grip. That is questioned by many of the experts. The forearm muscles do not really cross the elbow joint. to put this to the test I have been gripping things for the past 5 minutes trying to get a bicep contraction and…nothing. You can force a bicep contraction while gripping but it is not involuntary. Even in a supinated and flexed elbow position, no extra contracting due to the grip even with my COC grippers.

Umm, if I’m not mistaken, isn’t the purpose of muscle to connect between two bones and allow the application of force to cause or resist movement.

Vroom, in general this is true. But looking at your abs, they insert anteriorly on the linea alba, center line of your belly.

An aponeurosis is the sheath around the tendon, and in some cases and extension of the tendon as with the abdominals.

The reason I brought the question up is I was looking at this link and noticed that the bicipital is a discrete structure and thought it unusual that a muscle would be connected to another muscle by a tendon. Muscles connect to bones via tendons, or so I thought.
http://www.rad.washington.edu/atlas/bicepsbrachii.html
That graphic shows the bicipital terminating where? forearm muscles? The involuntary flexion of the bicep part was from viewing the bicep as a later adaptation caused by a need to stabilize the elbow joint, perhaps in ways for which the brachialis was inadequate. Since the vast majority of gripping events involve some joint activity at the elbow, it would make sense to potentiate bicep flexion with every gripping, if only neurologically. Inserting the tendon into muscle fascia of gripping muscles would be a way to guarantee it. It may be subject to conscious control upon willing it, and is automatic otherwise? For a primate swinging from branch to branch, frequently their lives depend on the structures involved. There is theories that humans evolved from non-climbing primates…recent finds in the news. Climbing may have evolved as escape from predators.
Anyways, I can accept the nerve-protection function.

Your tendons connect muscle to bone, PERIOD. Is it possible that a tendon or fascia runs through another fascia? Yes. No human has every vein, artery or nerve in EXACTLY the same place. Just like some people have crooked noses, some have crooked veins. Either way, your forearm contractions do not cause biceps contractions. Your biceps has two functions…supination and flexion, that’s it. Please accept that and ask more relevant questions.

Professor:

I know you’ve waited all day so here it is: In your last post you stated you’d like me to ask more relevant questions. Here’s one for you: In your second post of this thread you ended by asking me if I know what the radius and ulna are. In my first and second post I indicated I did know by referring to both. Assuming your question represented sarcasm, I need to know why you needed to appear sarcastic when your question was empty of content?

As for your statement that tendons do not insert into muscle fascia, I must correct you. Some do: use the link I gave you and read the “Insertion” boxes of both the biceps brachii and the triceps, for example. More muscle tendons do, as well.

As for the biceps not serving to stabilize the elbow joint: based on your logic, the anconeus is the only muscle DESCRIBED as stabilizing the elbow joint so therefore is the only muscle to do so. Antagonistic muscle contractions serve to stabilize joints, which is a secondary effect.

It is okay to admit your knowledge is incomplete, that you are learning something, and to not compel yourself to appear to be the source of authority but to answer questions in a RELEVANT manner. Ha.

[quote]Limbic wrote:

As for your statement that tendons do not insert into muscle fascia, I must correct you. Some do: use the link I gave you and read the “Insertion” boxes of both the biceps brachii and the triceps, for example. More muscle tendons do, as well.[/quote]

You can’t read well. I said YES, some tendons can run through other fascia. Read better. As far as sarcasm, that is my nature. I will not change that because you have soft skin. Harden that up.

[quote]

As for the biceps not serving to stabilize the elbow joint: based on your logic, the anconeus is the only muscle DESCRIBED as stabilizing the elbow joint so therefore is the only muscle to do so. Antagonistic muscle contractions serve to stabilize joints, which is a secondary effect.

It is okay to admit your knowledge is incomplete, that you are learning something, and to not compel yourself to appear to be the source of authority but to answer questions in a RELEVANT manner. Ha.[/quote]

Your question wasn’t even about whether the biceps can stabilize the elbow. Several people in this thread wrote that we couldn’t figure out exactly what you were asking. Now you want to play games? Quit playing, you are poor at it. Your original question implied that you thought the flexion of the forearm caused flexion of the biceps. You are the one who seems confused.

Your compulsion remains??

Here’s my last attempt to laser through that skull of yours: Professor, in one post you state tendons connect to bone and throw in the PERIOD nonsense as if there were nothing else possible, and then within the same post you include another possibility, ignoring your PERIOD stuff and ignoring the fact the bicipital terminates in a different muscle’s fascia. You can’t have it both ways son: either drop your PERIOD statement and accept the bicipital terminates in the fascia of the forearm muscles, or deny the validiity of the www.rad.washington.edu link. You can’t have it both ways.

My question certainly was not as to whether the bicep CAN stabilize the elbow, that question was indirectly posed by YOURSELF by stating, quote “Your biceps has two functions…supination and flexion, that’s it.” Now convince me you did not rule out a secondary role of stabilization?

At your end you imply a unity between yourself and other posters as to what question I was asking. That is a false implication. For you “we” has not yet been achieved. Your posts are characterised by an attempt to include mutually exclusionary positions in a third statement, driven by a compulsion to appear as the authority via erroneus assumptions. To be honest, your posts here are confusing when compared to, say, your political posts. Your mind has grown befuddled by assuming a consensus result possible with posters who do not intend to allow consensus. Put politics in its place: if you let it remain as a central pivot point you’ll be a-turnin’ on a spit.

The original thread post of mine was driven by a desire to find out what the bicipital was, it appears to be only protective, does not cause bicep flexion, and similar structures occur in at least two other places in the body, as frogs pointed out. I had been wondering how specialized the elbow joint had become.

Game playing – you shall certainly find that in the poli-posts.

Limbic, I seriously doubt anyone else reading this is confused on anything I have written. I am more than sure the same can not be said of your posts. You are now arguing over sentence structure which simply makes it seem as if you have lost your point. Bottom line, you tried to call me out because you actually believed that I wrote that tendons cannot connect to other fascia. I CLEARLY wrote that they could. That makes you incorrect and me writing the word “period” does not erase that. Deal with it and move on.

I have dissected human bodies. That gives me a working knowledge on this subject and I would not have replied if I didn’t know the subject matter at all. From the beginning, you failed to ask clear questions and others in this thread noticed that as well. I asked you in the FIRST post to be clear on your questions. Since that ability seems to escape you, maybe you should try again or give up completely.

In my first post to this thread, what is my third question, and when did you ever really answer it?

Does it actually insert in the ulna? I answered it: no, it does not. You’ve dissected bodies? Why didn’t you state in your first post it did not insert in the ulna? You say you would not have replied if you did not know the subject matter at all. I say you did exactly that – you never replied to the question, I did.

“…I seriously doubt anyone else…”
“…others in this thread noticed that as well.” Once again you are assuming consensus of identity with others – not evident.

I posit you do not present YOUR positions clearly and fully, and transfer it upon others.

You sure showed me, huh?

Not to step into this mess, but in my jr. high health class from many years ago, I remember that tendons connect muscle to muscle or muscle to bone. I know this is simplistic, and that you two have delved much deeper into your physiology posts, but I believe there are cases where a tendon connects two muscles (albeit probably very small muscles only).
My $0.02.
DB

Here’s links to similar insertions:

Tensor fascia lata acting on the iliotibial band: http://www.rad.washington.edu/atlas2/tensorfascialata.html

Gluteus maximus at the iliotibial band: http://www.rad.washington.edu/atlas2/gluteusmaximus.html

Triceps brachii in forearm fascia: http://www.rad.washington.edu/atlas/triceps brachii.html

And as frogs said there is maybe one in the hand.

[quote]Limbic wrote:
Here’s links to similar insertions:

Tensor fascia lata acting on the iliotibial band: http://www.rad.washington.edu/atlas2/tensorfascialata.html

Gluteus maximus at the iliotibial band: http://www.rad.washington.edu/atlas2/gluteusmaximus.html

Triceps brachii in forearm fascia: http://www.rad.washington.edu/atlas/triceps brachii.html

And as frogs said there is maybe one in the hand.
[/quote]

…and for contrast, these two sites contradict those fascial insertions of the ones you posted.

Tensor fascia lata
http://www.meddean.luc.edu/lumen/MedEd/GrossAnatomy/dissector/mml/tfl.htm

Triceps Brachii
http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/TricepsBrachii.html

The main issue is what hfrogs00 pointed out when he wrote:
“The thing is some experts present extra insertions, originations, or joint actions. But you have to go with what is accepted by a majority of the experts and you have to look at many books and cadavers yourself to find this out.”

Please, don’t ever do yourself the disservice of using only ONE source when the goal is to attain knowledge on a complex field of study.