T Nation

Bible Translations - Catholics and Protestants

I will review my book “Truth in Translation” and get back to you probably tomorrow.

John 1:1 - In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

Acts 5:1-5 - 1 However, a certain man, Anani’as by name, together with Sapphi’ra his wife, sold a possession 2 and secretly held back some of the price, his wife also knowing about it, and he brought just a part and deposited it at the feet of the apostles. 3 But Peter said: “Anani’as, why has Satan emboldened you to play false to the holy spirit and to hold back secretly some of the price of the field? 4 As long as it remained with you did it not remain yours, and after it was sold did it not continue in your control? Why was it that you purposed such a deed as this in your heart? You have played false, not to men, but to God.” 5 On hearing these words Anani’as fell down and expired. And great fear came over all those hearing of it.

I can see the John 1:1, but what part about Acts 5:1-5 did you want to review?

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

Well the problem lifting wise for me, is I had back surgery which should have been a problem, but I happen to be the lucky 1% who had a complication I can do nothing about. The muscle he Dr cut through has extensive edema and that’s the hold up for me getting back in to lifting. According to my calculations, I should have been already lifting fairly close to normal, but the edema is rather painful and the muscle is weak. There is nothing I can do about it, it just has to go away, but it may take a long time. I am ‘exercising’ but not training…It’s killing me. I’ll take some prayers, if you could spare a few seconds :)[/quote]

Wow! Yeah, I never had anything that bad. I do feel real bad for you. It must take a lot of patience to “wait” out the recovery. I have a gym at my work, and it takes a lot to stay out on days I should be resting :slight_smile: During high school the main issue I had was related to weakness in the bad muscles as well, but that was self-inflicted, never did any leg work, so thus started my obsession with have really strong legs and back.
[/quote]

Oh man, it’s murder. I discussed lifting at length with the Dr before jumping in as this is exactly what I wanted to avoid. Structurally, everything is pretty sound except for the lower lumbar muscle. Lifting is such a major part of my life that it is difficult to cope with the fact that I am so limited. I mean right now, I don’t really talk lifting, or read any articles, it’s just depressing, there is soooo much I want to do under the bar.
So basically, I can do some very moderate limited lifting, but I pretty much have to keep it under 20 minutes and the weights are not very light. Then I just work the eliptical or star stepper as hard as I can and that’s about it…Right now, I am just trying not to turn into dough.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
John 1:1 - In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

Acts 5:1-5 - 1 However, a certain man, Anani’as by name, together with Sapphi’ra his wife, sold a possession 2 and secretly held back some of the price, his wife also knowing about it, and he brought just a part and deposited it at the feet of the apostles. 3 But Peter said: “Anani’as, why has Satan emboldened you to play false to the holy spirit and to hold back secretly some of the price of the field? 4 As long as it remained with you did it not remain yours, and after it was sold did it not continue in your control? Why was it that you purposed such a deed as this in your heart? You have played false, not to men, but to God.” 5 On hearing these words Anani’as fell down and expired. And great fear came over all those hearing of it.

I can see the John 1:1, but what part about Acts 5:1-5 did you want to review?[/quote]

Here are the ESV translations:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(John 1:1 ESV)

But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, and with his wife's knowledge he kept back for himself some of the proceeds and brought only a part of it and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God." When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it.

(Acts 5:1-5 ESV)

Well you obviously see the problem I have with John 1:1 and no other translation has what NWT has as it’s reference to ‘a god’. It actually doesn’t really make any sense. So it really does beg the question why the Watch Tower supposed to make that correction when none was needed.

As far as the Acts passage I am a little surprised I was expecting it to be more altered as it makes reference to the Holy Spirit as God, which is a support for the doctrine of the Trinity as even the NWT says “You have played false, not to men, but to God.” Of course, I am not sure what “played false” is supposed to mean, I expect it is the same as lying?

I will briefly comment on Acts 5:15 (specifically vs 3 as it relates to the holy spirit) and compare it to Acts 2:38, just a few chapters earlier to give a little bit of context and then get your feedback.

Acts 2:38 - Peter [said] to them: ?Repent, and let each one of YOU be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of YOUR sins, and YOU will receive the free gift of the holy spirit. "

Acts 5:3 is mentioning the holy spirit, that same holy spirit that was given as a free gift when they were baptized. A gift received from Jehovah that allowed them to see with greater wisdom (Rom 2:10)

Thoughts? (I will get into detail about John 1:1 tomorrow.)

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
I will briefly comment on Acts 5:15 (specifically vs 3 as it relates to the holy spirit) and compare it to Acts 2:38, just a few chapters earlier to give a little bit of context and then get your feedback.

Acts 2:38 - Peter [said] to them: ?Repent, and let each one of YOU be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of YOUR sins, and YOU will receive the free gift of the holy spirit. "

Acts 5:3 is mentioning the holy spirit, that same holy spirit that was given as a free gift when they were baptized. A gift received from Jehovah that allowed them to see with greater wisdom (Rom 2:10)

Thoughts? (I will get into detail about John 1:1 tomorrow.)[/quote]

My thoughts are really in reference to Act 5:4 where Peter says this " You have not lied to man but to God." <- That is a direct scriptural reference to the Holy Spirit as part of the God head. It refers to Ananias lying to God who is present in the spirit. If he were not present in the spirit, he could not have lied to God. If the spirit were not part of the God head, then Ananias would not have been lying to God, just the Holy Spirit.

Also I am going to PM you on another matter. If you don’t get a PM from me, let me know…

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
I will briefly comment on Acts 5:15 (specifically vs 3 as it relates to the holy spirit) and compare it to Acts 2:38, just a few chapters earlier to give a little bit of context and then get your feedback.

Acts 2:38 - Peter [said] to them: ?Repent, and let each one of YOU be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of YOUR sins, and YOU will receive the free gift of the holy spirit. "

Acts 5:3 is mentioning the holy spirit, that same holy spirit that was given as a free gift when they were baptized. A gift received from Jehovah that allowed them to see with greater wisdom (Rom 2:10)

Thoughts? (I will get into detail about John 1:1 tomorrow.)[/quote]

My thoughts are really in reference to Act 5:4 where Peter says this " You have not lied to man but to God." <- That is a direct scriptural reference to the Holy Spirit as part of the God head. It refers to Ananias lying to God who is present in the spirit. If he were not present in the spirit, he could not have lied to God. If the spirit were not part of the God head, then Ananias would not have been lying to God, just the Holy Spirit.

Also I am going to PM you on another matter. If you don’t get a PM from me, let me know…

[/quote]

Good. We have our point of disagreement. (with no intention of “leading” the conversation) This is an opportunity bring in the other scriptural references to holy spirit and see how they apply. That is how I reached the conclusions I have.

First off, and again, I am not doing all the questioning here and have no intention to, do you view the holy spirit as an actual entity or is it something that can be all places at all time?

BTW, I got your PM. Thank you very much for that. I will review it a couple times for sure to make sure I grasp it.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
I will briefly comment on Acts 5:15 (specifically vs 3 as it relates to the holy spirit) and compare it to Acts 2:38, just a few chapters earlier to give a little bit of context and then get your feedback.

Acts 2:38 - Peter [said] to them: ?Repent, and let each one of YOU be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of YOUR sins, and YOU will receive the free gift of the holy spirit. "

Acts 5:3 is mentioning the holy spirit, that same holy spirit that was given as a free gift when they were baptized. A gift received from Jehovah that allowed them to see with greater wisdom (Rom 2:10)

Thoughts? (I will get into detail about John 1:1 tomorrow.)[/quote]

My thoughts are really in reference to Act 5:4 where Peter says this " You have not lied to man but to God." <- That is a direct scriptural reference to the Holy Spirit as part of the God head. It refers to Ananias lying to God who is present in the spirit. If he were not present in the spirit, he could not have lied to God. If the spirit were not part of the God head, then Ananias would not have been lying to God, just the Holy Spirit.

Also I am going to PM you on another matter. If you don’t get a PM from me, let me know…

[/quote]

Good. We have our point of disagreement. (with no intention of “leading” the conversation) This is an opportunity bring in the other scriptural references to holy spirit and see how they apply. That is how I reached the conclusions I have.

First off, and again, I am not doing all the questioning here and have no intention to, do you view the holy spirit as an actual entity or is it something that can be all places at all time?

[/quote]
Both. It is the muse that moves us, that which gives us life and allows us to do good.
What is your view of what the Holy Spirit is?

BTW, I got your PM. Thank you very much for that. I will review it a couple times for sure to make sure I grasp it. [/quote]

[quote]pat wrote:

Both. It is the muse that moves us, that which gives us life and allows us to do good.
What is your view of what the Holy Spirit is?

[/quote]

So you view it as both a person and a “force”?

I view it as a force. In fact, I view it as the force that God uses to create and accomplish his purpose.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

Both. It is the muse that moves us, that which gives us life and allows us to do good.
What is your view of what the Holy Spirit is?

[/quote]

So you view it as both a person and a “force”?

I view it as a force. In fact, I view it as the force that God uses to create and accomplish his purpose.[/quote]

Person? No. Entity yes. Force, yes. It’s the part of God that interacts with us. It is his mechanism of action to us and our world, but yet so much more as well.

Let me ask you this, suppose I was able to drain your body of your spirit. Could you live? Would your body still be you?

[quote]pat wrote:

Person? No. Entity yes. Force, yes. It’s the part of God that interacts with us. It is his mechanism of action to us and our world, but yet so much more as well.

Let me ask you this, suppose I was able to drain your body of your spirit. Could you live? Would your body still be you?[/quote]

Before I answer the question you ask (I fear it takes us off topic) I wanted to address this “yet so much more” portion. We are in total agreement on the “mechanism of action to us and our world”, but I believe that God’s Word the Bible is the way that God talks to us.

Also,

I believe you are catholic, correct?

[b]The Third Person of the Blessed Trinity

This heading implies two truths:

The Holy Ghost is a Person really distinct as such from the Father and the Son;
He is God and consubstantial with the Father and the Son.[/b]

^^This was pulled directly from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm

So what more is the holy spirit? And do you agree with the Catholic Encyclopedia where it says that the Holy Spirit is a person? Also, what Scriptures are you using to say that the holy spirit is a person? (I know Acts says he “lied” or “proved false” to the holy spirit, but are there any others? I gave the reason I believe the Bible was worded that way, by referencing an earlier portion of Acts in which Peter was speaking directly about the holy spirit). I will also provide additional scriptures if you would like about why I feel it is a force.

I am not trying to trap or anything like that. That is not what I am doing with the Catholic Encyclopedia quote. Not my intention at all.

One more thing: (off topic but a request you made)

The book that I got that information that the NAB and the NWT were the most accurate was from this book, Truth in Translation by Jason David BeDuhn.

I do want to get to the “soul” of a man with you later, as that is a very interesting topic.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

Person? No. Entity yes. Force, yes. It’s the part of God that interacts with us. It is his mechanism of action to us and our world, but yet so much more as well.

Let me ask you this, suppose I was able to drain your body of your spirit. Could you live? Would your body still be you?[/quote]

Before I answer the question you ask (I fear it takes us off topic) I wanted to address this “yet so much more” portion. We are in total agreement on the “mechanism of action to us and our world”, but I believe that God’s Word the Bible is the way that God talks to us.

Also,

I believe you are catholic, correct?

[b]The Third Person of the Blessed Trinity

This heading implies two truths:

The Holy Ghost is a Person really distinct as such from the Father and the Son;
He is God and consubstantial with the Father and the Son.[/b]

^^This was pulled directly from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm

So what more is the holy spirit? And do you agree with the Catholic Encyclopedia where it says that the Holy Spirit is a person? Also, what Scriptures are you using to say that the holy spirit is a person? (I know Acts says he “lied” or “proved false” to the holy spirit, but are there any others? I gave the reason I believe the Bible was worded that way, by referencing an earlier portion of Acts in which Peter was speaking directly about the holy spirit). I will also provide additional scriptures if you would like about why I feel it is a force.

I am not trying to trap or anything like that. That is not what I am doing with the Catholic Encyclopedia quote. Not my intention at all.

One more thing: (off topic but a request you made)

The book that I got that information that the NAB and the NWT were the most accurate was from this book, Truth in Translation by Jason David BeDuhn.

I do want to get to the “soul” of a man with you later, as that is a very interesting topic.
[/quote]

LOL! Yeah, we do call the holy Spirit, the third “person” of the Holy Trinity, but we don’t mean it like an actual person as in a human being. We mean it that it’s a ‘self’ a living tangible thing that is of the substance of God so that while it’s a separate manifestation of God it’s, of the same substance not separate.