Bible Stories?

Listen I noticed what he said before he even posted it, I jumped a little to fast.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Even better, one in four Americans say Jesus may return in 2007.[/quote]

As to that, lixy, are you aware of any speculation in the Muslim world of a possible timeframe for the arrival of al-Mahdi?

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Note that the story of the global flood is not solely a Judeo-Christian myth. Obviously, Noah’s ark appears in the Qur’an, but an earlier account (predating the book of Genesis) also appears in the Mesopotamian/Babylonian epic poem Gilgamesh, as well as the Greek myth of Deukalion.

It’s entirely possible that the Tigris and Euphrates valley was deluged by unseasonably heavy rainfall one year, and that all of these myths are an offshoot of that actual event.

…[/quote]

I’ve read that there are many, many versions of “flood” stories in ancient civilizations in Europe, Africa, Asia, and, get this, South America.

There are enough similarities between these stories to make one wonder if there wasn’t perhaps some sort of global catastrophe way back in the day.

The book I read this in was Graham Hancock’s Fingerprints of the Gods.

This guy writes books on poorly or unexplained elements of history. I take his stuff with a grain with of salt since it’s entirely possible that he’s the historical equivalent of those “Loose Change” kids. I just don’t know.

But the fact that there are so many flood stories in so many different cultures suggests that there may be a grain of truth in flood myths. Not so much in Noah’s Ark, IMO, but perhaps in floods affecting large parts of the world.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Andrew Dixon wrote:
Big deal, whats God done lately?

What’s your dad done for you lately?[/quote]

Nothing since 1982. I guess I have God to thank.

the plot thickens

[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
I’ve read that there are many, many versions of “flood” stories in ancient civilizations in Europe, Africa, Asia, and, get this, South America.

There are enough similarities between these stories to make one wonder if there wasn’t perhaps some sort of global catastrophe way back in the day.

…the fact that there are so many flood stories in so many different cultures suggests that there may be a grain of truth in flood myths. Not so much in Noah’s Ark, IMO, but perhaps in floods affecting large parts of the world.[/quote]

Well, the fact that there are so many cataclysmic flood myths from so many far-flung cultures should invalidate the idea that any ONE of them is the only true one. It’s like in Pirates of the Caribbean:

[i]“Black Pearl? I’ve heard stories. She’s been preying on ships and settlements for near ten years. Never leaves any survivors!”

“No survivors? Then where do the stories come from, I wonder?”[/i]

I think it’s time for us to do a little shaving with Occam’s razor. In every case, we have a civilization built in the fertile flatlands surrounding a river, be it the Nile, the Tigris and Euphrates, the Volga or the Amazon. These flatlands are also known as… wait for it… the flood plain.

For generations and generations the river flows as normal, then one year, there’s a heavy rain, or maybe an abnormally large glacial melt (global warming, you know), and our fine civilization of adobe and rammed earth gets washed away.

Likely, a few wise people, with foresight enough to pack a few provisions and livestock in a boat before the river bursts its banks survive the flood, and they tell their grandchildren about the experience.

Naturally, the story gets better and better with each retelling, as stories often do, until by the time it gets written down hundreds of years later, it’s no longer a city of five thousand souls that drowns, but every man, woman and child on the face of the earth.

The boat is no longer a humble barge with a few goats and sheep and bags of barley, but a colossal vessel packed with mating pairs of every animal in the world, and provisions for rebuilding the spoiled planet.

And no longer is it a simple account of a mundane meteorological event but a great legend of a global cataclysm caused by an angry god to cleanse the world of evil.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
As to that, lixy, are you aware of any speculation in the Muslim world of a possible timeframe for the arrival of al-Mahdi?[/quote]

Not exactly the kinda polls you’d expect in the Muslim. It’s not hard to see that the ones who surveyed Americans about the return of Jesus did so with their tongues firmly planted in their cheeks; not something that’ll fly where I come from.

That out of the way, I’ll be delighted to provide my own speculation based on my entourage and my Islamic education. First of, Al-Mahdi is not readily accepted by the Sunnis because of the lack of Quranic verses or authoritative Hadiths that mention him. For that alone, we’re down to 10-20% of Muslims believing in his advent. The Shi’te, on the other hand, firmly believe in Al-Mahdi and claim he is related to Ali.

Now, there are “foretelling signs” that have been discussed in the dubious Hadiths which mention Al-Mahdi Al-mountadar (literally, the guided one that is [expected/waited for]). With few expections (sects, Suffis…) most people don’t believe the signs have been fulfilled yet.

In conclusion, the ratio of people who think Al-Mahdi is coming back some time this years can’t possibly represent more than 1% of the Muslim population.

P.S: Muslims believe in the second coming of Jesus.

[quote]lixy wrote:

P.S: Muslims believe in the second coming of Jesus. [/quote]

You said that al-Mahdi will return, implying that he will be a person who was once alive. And I recall you saying somewhere else that Jesus and al-Mahdi are “actually the same guy”. But as far as I know, Rasul Esa was not related to Imam Ali, therefore he could not be identified by the Shi’ites as al-Mahdi. So I’m guessing that you are not a Shi’ite.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Note that the story of the global flood is not solely a Judeo-Christian myth. Obviously, Noah’s ark appears in the Qur’an, but an earlier account (predating the book of Genesis) also appears in the Mesopotamian/Babylonian epic poem Gilgamesh, as well as the Greek myth of Deukalion.

It’s entirely possible that the Tigris and Euphrates valley was deluged by unseasonably heavy rainfall one year, and that all of these myths are an offshoot of that actual event.

Just for fun, though, here’s a look at the logistics of Noah’s mythical accomplishment.

The ark is described as 300 cubits long, the cubit being a unit of measurement from elbow to outstretched fingertip. Many different cubits were in use in the ancient world, but all were essentially similar, and most literalists agree that the ark was approximately 137 meters (450 feet) in length.

This is considerably longer than the largest wooden vessels ever built in historical times: according to certain sources, the early 15th-century Chinese admiral Zheng He may have used junks 122 meters (400 feet) long, but the schooner Wyoming, launched in 1909 and the largest documented wooden-hulled ship ever built, measured only 100 meters (329.5 feet) and needed iron cross-bracing to counter warping and a steam pump to handle a serious leak problem.

The construction and use histories of these late 19th-century wooden European ships indicated that they were already pushing or had exceeded the practical limits for the size of wooden ships.

The ark would have had a gross volume of about 40,000 cubic meters (1.5 million cubic feet), a displacement a little less than half that of the Titanic at about 22,000 tons, and total floor space of around 9,300 square meters (100,000 square feet).

However, just to hold a male and female specimen all of the species of beetles, the ark would have had to be twice this size.

The true believer should ask him or herself whether eight humans, even with divine inspiration, could have actually cared for millions of species of birds, fish, animals and insects (while also sailing the ark), how the special dietary needs of some of the more exotic animals could have been catered for, how the creatures could have been prevented from preying on each other, questions of lighting, ventilation, and temperature control, hibernation, the survival and germination of seeds, the position of freshwater and saltwater fish, the question of what the animals would have eaten immediately after leaving the ark, how they traveled (or were gathered) from all over the world to board the ark and how they could have returned to their far-flung habitats across the Earth’s bare, flood-devastated terrain, and how two or a few members of a species could have provided enough genetic variety to avoid inbreeding and reconstitute a healthy population.

Of course, this is a well-hashed-out debate, and the true believer will have answers for all of these questions already. I have found, furthermore, that he will not let little things like the laws of physics and biology interfere with his faith. Just like our politicians, inasmuch as God wrote these laws, he seems not to be bound by them.[/quote]

I believed in the Noah’s Ark story until it got to where the animals were coming down the gangplank 2 by 2. Noah said: “Go forth and multiply!” But then the snakes said: “But Noah, we can’t go forth and multiply…we’re adders!”

That’s when the story lost me.

[quote]Andrew Dixon wrote:
lixy wrote:
Andrew Dixon wrote:
Big deal, whats God done lately?

What’s your dad done for you lately?

Nothing since 1982. I guess I have God to thank.

the plot thickens[/quote]

In a Freudian voice:

…ahhh, you’re projecting your lack of a father in your life unto God, since in early childhood we develop our view of God depending how our parents were with us, specially our fathers…
you’re blaming God for the pain and anger you feel due to your father’s absence in your life…

your sense of justice feels violated and your holding God accountable.
very interesting…

World teacher or world deceiver???

He has been expected for generations by all of the major religions. Christians know him as the Christ, and expect his imminent return. Jews await him as the Messiah; Hindus look for the coming of Krishna; Buddhists expect him as Maitreya Buddha; and Muslims anticipate the Imam Mahdi or Messiah.

Although the names are different, many believe that they all refer to the same individual: the World Teacher, whose personal name is Maitreya (pronounced my-tray-ah).

Preferring to be known simply as the Teacher, Maitreya has not come as a religious leader, or to found a new religion, but as a teacher and guide for people of every religion and those of no religion.

At this time of great political, economic and social crisis Maitreya will inspire humanity to see itself as one family, and create a civilization based on sharing, economic and social justice, and global cooperation.

He will launch a call to action to save the millions of people who starve to death every year in a world of plenty. Among Maitreya’s recommendations will be a shift in social priorities so that adequate food, housing, clothing, education, and medical care become universal rights.

Under Maitreya’s inspiration, humanity itself will make the required changes and create a saner and more just world for all.

[quote]jlesk68 wrote:
World teacher or world deceiver???
[/quote]

Neither, so far.

[quote]jlesk68 wrote:
In a Freudian voice:

…ahhh, you’re projecting your lack of a father in your life unto God, since in early childhood we develop our view of God depending how our parents were with us, specially our fathers…
you’re blaming God for the pain and anger you feel due to your father’s absence in your life…

your sense of justice feels violated and your holding God accountable.
very interesting…[/quote]

In a Tyler Durdenian voice:

Shut up! Our fathers were our models for God. If our fathers bailed, what does that tell you about God? Listen to me! You have to consider the possibility that God does not like you. He never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. This is not the worst thing that can happen.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
You said that al-Mahdi will return, implying that he will be a person who was once alive. And I recall you saying somewhere else that Jesus and al-Mahdi are “actually the same guy”. But as far as I know, Rasul Esa was not related to Imam Ali, therefore he could not be identified by the Shi’ites as al-Mahdi. So I’m guessing that you are not a Shi’ite. [/quote]

You guessed right. Actually, because of the intrinsic relation between power and blood for the Shi’a, it makes it kinda obvious that a socialist won’t adhere to their principles.

For the Shi’ites, Al-Mahdi and Jesus are two different people that will join forces to rid the world of tyrannies and such.

In short, all Muslims believe in the return of Jesus but only the Shi’ites believe in the coming of their Imam. The way I figured, the whole Al-Mahdi story was just a copycat of Jesus, because they were oppressed under the Sunnis. Most Sunni would reserve their judgement because speculating without Quranic evidence is not highly regarded to say the least.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

Of course, this is a well-hashed-out debate, and the true believer will have answers for all of these questions already. I have found, furthermore, that he will not let little things like the laws of physics and biology interfere with his faith. Just like our politicians, inasmuch as God wrote these laws, he seems not to be bound by them.[/quote]

With God on our side we don’t need no stinking physics…and the vessle could have been the size of a Biffy porta-John it still would have fit all creatures x2 with room for a ping-pong table.

I’ll go on record as believing.

To the OP. Here’s the great part. No one is telling you you have to. There may be some telling you you should, but that is their right as much as yours to tell someone they shouldn’t. Little place called America. Shouldn’t you be lifting something heavy instead of irritating folks?

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Of course, this is a well-hashed-out debate, and the true believer will have answers for all of these questions already. I have found, furthermore, that he will not let little things like the laws of physics and biology interfere with his faith. Just like our politicians, inasmuch as God wrote these laws, he seems not to be bound by them.[/quote]

A better question is what is easier to believe the flood story literally, or that Jesus rose from the dead?

Christianity does not rise in fall on the other parts of the Bible its sole foundation is in the History of Jesus Christ.

So in that sense you are correct in saying “he will not let little things like the laws of physics and biology interfere with his faith”

After all our main belief is clearly against these laws.

No matter how strict or liberal your interpretation of the Bible is that one part unites all believer’s in the defiance of such laws.

I truly believe that God has a purpose for us. I don’t think God is omnipotent or omnipresent, but reacts to reality as it unfolds. The Bible says that we are made in His image, which says a lot. If we imagine our bodies as a microcosm of the universe, then ‘Good vs Evil’ would be just like our immune systems battling invading organisms.

I am certainly no Bible scholar (Varqanir or Pookie?). But the above is what I believe. Is it all a bunch of stories and myths? I don’t expect we’ll ever know.

[quote]btm62 wrote:
I’ll go on record as believing.

To the OP. Here’s the great part. No one is telling you you have to. There may be some telling you you should, but that is their right as much as yours to tell someone they shouldn’t. Little place called America. Shouldn’t you be lifting something heavy instead of irritating folks?[/quote]

This is a discussion forum. We can discuss politics and world issues and why not religion? Why the not question the creation of our universe?

Kind of a big issue.

If you want to believe supernatural tales of creationism then go ahead. I just find it interesting as to how anyone could possibly believe in this stuff. I don’t go in blind faith. Makes no sense to me.

Why do you continue to call them that, are you really that pathetic that you want to start an argument over this?

[quote]Andrew Dixon wrote:
… I don’t go in blind faith. Makes no sense to me. [/quote]

There is no other kind of faith. Either you believe or you don’t.

If you have supporting facts it is called knowledge.

You are clearly trolling for a pissing match and you are making yourself look bad.