T Nation

Beyond for Future Programming


#1

Hey Jim Wendler! I've been following the 351 + FSL since march. I've introduced the assistace and guidelines you've giving me with great success. Thank you.
My programming I did in advance is soon coming to an end. I've been reading through you books for ideas of what to try after my meet in september, and the Beyond, Training Maximally came to interest.
Would following templet be any good for my future training program, or should I rather stick with the 351+FSL with the same assistance as stated below?

Day 1
Mobility
Medicin ball throws x15
Press - Beyond
Bench Press - reversed down sets 3-5x5-8 @ 75% (had great experience with this on 351+FSL)
Chins x 100
Db Row 3x10-20 ea.
Dips x 100
Face Pulls x100

Day 2
Mobility
Box Jumps x15
Deadlift - Beyond
Squat - Reversed down sets 3-5x5-8 @ 75%
Hanging Leg Raise x50
Back Extensions x50
Split Squat x50 ea.
Condition: Rowing Ergometer - 2000m @ As fast as possible

Day 3
Mobility
Medicin Ball Throws x15
Bench Press - Beyond
Press - reversed down sets 3-5x5-8 @75%
Chins x100
Db Row 3x10-20 ea.
Dips x100
Face Pulls x100

Day 4
Mobility
Box Jumps x15
Squat - Beyond
Deadlift - Reversed down sets 3-5x2-3 @75%
Ab Wheel x100
Kettlebell Swings x100
Condition - Rowing Ergometer - 2000m @ As fast as possible.

Alternatively I will do 351, Strength Phase, Reversed FSL, with bodyweight + rows as assistance as stated above, if what's shown above won't work!
Your time and help is greately appreciated!


#2

I don't think you are supposed to swap the down sets to the alternate main exercise in the Beyond 5/3/1 template (squat/dead, bench/press). After the main exercises, do down sets of the same exercise. Beyond requires a lot of self regulation - I believe if you're training maximally, you'll need the full week to recover from the main lift since this program is geared for when your intensities have moved "Beyond 5/3/1." You mentioned "reverse down set" but that's no where in the book (except for BBB); perhaps it's been posted in the forums elsewhere regarding the Beyond template that I've not read. Accessory work is whatever you want so I cannot comment on your choices - you're beyond 5/3/1 and should know what you need in that regard (strengthen weaknesses, strengths, balance for hypertrophy). I haven't done Beyond 5/3/1 because 5/3/1 still works for me - is it still working for you?


#3

I havent read the reversed down sets anywhere myself, but I've read Jim Wendler reversing the FSL and SSL sets, and seen it in the book too. ever since I did the Strength Challenge, I've really like reverseing the movement, since it gave me such results. This is simply where the idea comes from.

I like you thought on not fixing something that isn't broken yet, but like alot of others, I'd like to experiement and build a bigger toolbox. I can't see how I can gain this experience form limiting myself to what I've done for years.

I haven't done the program yet, as I am just laying out the thoughts on this forum for feedback.
Thank you for your response, I really aprpreciated the feedback!


#4

No problem! I think you could try it - if you like spreading the volume out over week and your recovery is in check I'd give it a shot. I've been doing 5/3/1 for about 3 years with a couple of programs in between for 6-12 week stints. I always come back to 5/3/1 though. I think once I finish this '28 weeks of training' (22 weeks to go) I'll too give Beyond a shot - that is if the new book doesn't tickle my shiny new object syndrome forcing me to pick that one up instead.


#5

"that is if the new book doesn't tickle my shiny new object syndrome forcing me to pick that one up instead." - This is exactly why I'm asking about Beyond, so I'm with ya on this one!

I've been running 531 for the last 54 month, and this is the only program that have been able to keep me to it. I might as well go back and do what i know works and what keeps me motivated!
I really like this setup:
Main Lift - 351 + Strength Phase (part two first 3 weeks, part one next 3 weeks)
Supplemental - FSL reversed (oppisite lift)
Assistance - Bodyweight such as dips, pushups, chins, hanging leg raise, ab wheel, split squats, back extensions with rows added.

I've been thinking about trying this too for a while!


#6

...and I love doing the 5/3/1 sets and reps, then hitting FSL for ether a rest pause or widowmaker set. Today is my squat 3s day and my targets are this:

165x5
210x5
250x3

290x3
330x3
375x - going to get 6-7 reps
290x15-20

Something about hitting the FSL for high reps after pushing the PR always makes me feel incredibly accomplished. I also love the RP on FSL for upper body - Thursday I hit 205 for a total of 21 reps (bench) on the FSL RP set (I weight 220) and that felt awesome. Next 6 week cycle I look forward to the up/down ladder, pushing the shit out of all the down sets.

This is the second time I've done the 28 weeks - it's just awesome because you basically get 2 PR sets, the heavy and the light set.


#7

I've been doing the same thing with RP for upperbody lifts for some time ago. It's always nice with some change from time to time.

I will look into the 28 weeks of training in the future!


#8

I guess that if Mr. Wendler think that the above beyond templet could work, I would give that a try. If not i would be very curious to hear how to make the strength phase work in templet below, using 5's up, 3 down progression:

Mobility Work
Speed Work - Jumps/Throws x15-20
Main Lift - 351 + Strength Phase (part two (AMRAP @ TM) first 3 weeks, part one (1x1 @ TM) next 3 weeks (the idea came form you book where you state "I personally like the "Part Two" Version of this training in the earlier part of the training program"))
Supplemental - FSL reversed (oppisite lift)
Assistance - Bodyweight movements such as dips, pushups, chins, hanging leg raise, ab wheel, split squats, back extensions with rows added.
Condition - Goal Oriented rowing --> Keeps me motivated

Your opinion on these two (beyond and what's shown above) is still greatly appriceciated Jim!
Also I would like to thank you for advicing my to take out the joker sets. That's probably one of the smartest things I've done to my training for the long run!


#9

I don't know what is going on with any of these templates - it's quite different from what I've written on this forum many times and my emphasis on programming, not templates.

With that in mind - make a Leader/Anchor and adjust the assistance as this is pretty off-base.

BUT - the best coach is YOU, we just program much differently than what is written.


#10

I asked because I was quite unsure of the beyond templet. But I see this is ISN'T for me, for this simple reason, that I am asking. Although I thought I was pretty spot on with the `

` as I thought that this was what you'd recommend.

My apologies. I'll try to gain the needed knownlegde, escpeially for the leader/anchor as I've tried to make sense of this for some time now. Thank you for taking the time to answer this!


#12

As for the programming, Mr. Wendler, would one be able to do what's shown below? (and still be successfull with it):

2 cycles of
Main Lift - 351 last set push hard, Single at TM
Supplemental - FSL

1 cycle of
Main Lift - 351 not pushing last set, AMRAP/PR set at TM
Supplemental - SSL

And continued with the 5/3 progression? Or even doing SSL one first 2 cycles and FSL on 3rd cycle? Or would it be wiser to just FSL? This was inspired by the strength challenge.


#13

You have it all twisted around. Read the dozens of programs I've written on these forums to see how it's done.


#14

Honestly I think I've been reading too much on this forum, and that is whats making all this confusion.
I've been reading that you say SSL is after a TM rest and only for 2 cycles, and I've been reading that that I should start with higher volume, lower intensitet, and reverse that later in the program. Simply put, I think I've been 'information overloaded'. I kinda hate the internet for this.
Thanks you for you reply anyway Jim! I think I'm better of going back to the basic 351, fsl, bodyweight assistance, condition, to be safe.


#15

Hey Jim! I've been reading around and gaining information like you said. I think I have the correct idea of what anchor and leaders are. If I were to program it correctly over 6 cycles, would something like this be what you're thought i where missing?

2 cycles of (leader):
Main lift - 5's Pro
Supplemental - 5x5 SSL
Conditon - Pushed

1 cycle of (anchor):
Main lift - 351 (pushed for PR), followed up by jokers of 3 or 5 or even singles
Supplemental - 3-5x5 FSL
Minimal assistance
Conditon - Maintained

I hope I got it right, or at least got a bit closer.
At least I am trying!
As always, thank you for your time and for your work!


#16

Manze, I think you're overcomplicating it. What Jim said is priceless... YOU are your best coach and at this point since you're considering Beyond 5/3/1, you should already know what works best for you. Pick a template, run it for a few cycles, then change template and/or assistance/accessories as you see fit. Do what works for you and ditch everything else. Since you have "information overload" syndrome, open the book and just follow the templates as written; that could even mean doing Beyond 5/3/1 - but don't overcomplicate it, just do it as written. You'll learn from that experience what does/doesn't work for you.


#17

Hey Marc4497! I've gone back to doing the basic 531 and its supplemental templetes. Jim, and others, have helped me alot on a different thread to get my program rigth!
Anyway, thanks for your response, and about the overcomplication.. you are totally right, and that is why I should keep away from the beyond program!