T Nation

Between TRT and Cycling


#1

A few friends asked me if there is an issue to be, for the long run, at a dosage in between TRT (roughly 100mg/wk) and a 'beginners' cycle (500mg/wk) of testosterone.

I understand some will say that they should blast and cruise, just do 'time on/time off' cycles or 'Go big or go home'... but not everybody wants a 2400lbs total or be the next Mr. O. Or some may not want to get the attention of gaining too much size/strength in a short amount of time.

Yes eating, recovering/sleeping and training right should be optimized for best results, that's a given. But what if a guy, just want to be just a little better than what he can do naturally, for the long run.

Obviously, all other hormones should be kept at a safe level.

Basically what are the pros and cons of doing TRT at between 100mg and 500mg/wk?

Wasn't sure if I should have posted in the TRT forum or here but I suspect some, here, might have thought about that.

thanks


#2

Honestly, if you’re an adult, have a lifelong love for this sport, know how to eat and train and are completely educated, aware of and willing to accept what comes with replacing your natural test production despite not having an existing medical condition, you can do anything you want.

This decision, of course, not be made in haste, nor under a false sense of security that using lower doses of test will have less probability of screwing up your natural production for life.


#3

I should have mentioned that some of the guys are already on TRT, so why not bump it up a little bit without going to a proper cycle level.

All my friends seems to think I know everything about that stuff so they always ask me those weird questions. I don’t mind. Makes me learn more about the stuff. Yes they should educated themselves but they don’t. On top of that, there is a lot of ‘bro science’ online and sometimes it’s hard to know the difference between what’s true and what isn’t.

There is a few people on here that seems to be very educated still sometimes, you read the exact opposite from some of those guys.


#4

I think what you are suggesting is what many would consider a cruise dose. Some guys run 250mg/wk of Test on legit TRT while others cruise between 200-400mg/wk. So it really is a personal case kinda thing. The big advantage here is removing the need for PCT.

You aren’t really in danger of becoming a monster just because you are using 250-400mg/wk of Test.

Bill Roberts mentioned in another thread that short cycles in these ranges is often overlooked and could be very productive. He is a fan of short cycles to begin with. So it may be an option to cycle low doses and keep the cycles short for quick recover. Sorta the best of both worlds in that you get to maintain natural production, but don’t have hard recovers of long cycles with lots of suppression.

I was considering trying an 8 week cycle at these “cruising” doses soon to see how I liked it.

I am really curious to get others opinions on this. I assume there is a lot of experience around here with this.


#5

Yes basically a ‘cruising’ dose for the rest of your life-ish if you’re already on TRT/HRT.

I hear that some people are doing TRT at more than 100mg but it’s to bring them to a ‘normal’ level. What is normal (300-1100-ish, ng/dL) can be argued but I was thinking about someone who would try to be slightly above those numbers.

I understand, they wouldn’t turn into a giant green monster at those ‘less than cycle’ dosage but just wondering if there was any possible long term issues that could arise from that. Taking into effect that they would have to control the estrogen level and maybe the LDL…


#6

I am really bummed that this thread hasn’t got more attention. Is there just not the info or experience out there?


#7

[quote]KountKoma wrote:
I am really bummed that this thread hasn’t got more attention. Is there just not the info or experience out there? [/quote]

I guess everybody is into “Go Big or Go Home” mentality.


#8

A cruising dose isn’t going to do much other than maintain whatever muscle you have built over your natural limit on a blast. There are much more variables involved in muscle growth other than elevated testosterone levels. Of course, everyone’s limits will be different.

If cycling on and off, an 8 week cycle on a cruising dose wouldn’t be worth it(unless you’re Kevin Levrone). It is the length of shutdown rather than the amount of anabolics(reasonable, non-excessive amount) that makes it harder to recover. And you will be shutdown as long as the amount you use exceeds your natural production.

I’ve recently tried frontloading because of Bill Roberts and it works pretty well, so I would recommend a shorter 8 week cycle if you want faster recovery.


#9

[quote]nocoolnick wrote:
Yes basically a ‘cruising’ dose for the rest of your life-ish if you’re already on TRT/HRT.

I hear that some people are doing TRT at more than 100mg but it’s to bring them to a ‘normal’ level. What is normal (300-1100-ish, ng/dL) can be argued but I was thinking about someone who would try to be slightly above those numbers.

I understand, they wouldn’t turn into a giant green monster at those ‘less than cycle’ dosage but just wondering if there was any possible long term issues that could arise from that. Taking into effect that they would have to control the estrogen level and maybe the LDL…[/quote]

Just wanted to chime in…I’m currently on TRT at 140mg per week of Test C and am currently blasting another 160mg of Test C for a total of 300mg per week (not much of a blast, I know). I am also on another 50mg EOD of Masteron Propionate. I have a friend that is on TRT at around 200mg per week.

The point being, TRT ranges based on your test levels. I was at 660 on 140mg per week and I had modest gains over time, better recovery, improved strength, cognition, and libido. Pretty sure I can get my TRT doc to bump my dose to get closer to max if I wanted, but was more interested in blasting and didn’t want to invite more blood work. My Friend has much higher test levels on his dose. I guess it just matters your TRT provider.

For what it’s worth.


#10

well, if you look around at TRT doses, and you’ll see 100 mg of test e/cyp being the common dose. however, that usually puts guys in the upper range of normal instead of the mid-range where most guys normally are.

most male testosterone production varies from 3-10 mg/day… so that means most normal guys would be around 21-70 mg/wk. and since 100 mg of test e/cyp is actually 70 mg of active test (the other being the ester), this all kinda makes sense…

^so with all of that being said, most guys could take 150+ mg and be at higher levels than they could ever hope to produce, and would have the gains commiserate of that test level. obviously the farther one strays from “normal,” the more issues one could expect or at least have to manage…


#11

[quote]The Myth wrote:

[quote]nocoolnick wrote:
Yes basically a ‘cruising’ dose for the rest of your life-ish if you’re already on TRT/HRT.

I hear that some people are doing TRT at more than 100mg but it’s to bring them to a ‘normal’ level. What is normal (300-1100-ish, ng/dL) can be argued but I was thinking about someone who would try to be slightly above those numbers.

I understand, they wouldn’t turn into a giant green monster at those ‘less than cycle’ dosage but just wondering if there was any possible long term issues that could arise from that. Taking into effect that they would have to control the estrogen level and maybe the LDL…[/quote]

Just wanted to chime in…I’m currently on TRT at 140mg per week of Test C and am currently blasting another 160mg of Test C for a total of 300mg per week (not much of a blast, I know). I am also on another 50mg EOD of Masteron Propionate. I have a friend that is on TRT at around 200mg per week.

The point being, TRT ranges based on your test levels. I was at 660 on 140mg per week and I had modest gains over time, better recovery, improved strength, cognition, and libido. Pretty sure I can get my TRT doc to bump my dose to get closer to max if I wanted, but was more interested in blasting and didn’t want to invite more blood work. My Friend has much higher test levels on his dose. I guess it just matters your TRT provider.

For what it’s worth.
[/quote]

i thought you said that you were at 660 a week after injecting, and varied between that and 1100?


#12

Free test was at 660 seven days post injection. My understanding is that 1100 is the upper limit of “average.” My buddy never gets his blood tested but I know his provider is a little looser and so I suspect he is closer to the upper limit of 1100.

Interestingly enough, that’s my most recent bloodwork. Previously I was at 720 seven days post injection. Not sure what’s up with the drop, but not concerned about it either.

Oops, didn’t mean to hijack the thread. Bottom line is that blast and cruise is an option if you are not worried about fertility.


#13

[quote]The Myth wrote:
Free test was at 660 seven days post injection. My understanding is that 1100 is the upper limit of “average.” My buddy never gets his blood tested but I know his provider is a little looser and so I suspect he is closer to the upper limit of 1100.

Interestingly enough, that’s my most recent bloodwork. Previously I was at 720 seven days post injection. Not sure what’s up with the drop, but not concerned about it either.

Oops, didn’t mean to hijack the thread. Bottom line is that blast and cruise is an option if you are not worried about fertility.[/quote]

7 days is around the half life of the ester. So your test levels would be at, or even exceed the upper limit at their peak.


#14

[quote]The Myth wrote:
Free test was at 660 seven days post injection. My understanding is that 1100 is the upper limit of “average.” My buddy never gets his blood tested but I know his provider is a little looser and so I suspect he is closer to the upper limit of 1100.

Interestingly enough, that’s my most recent bloodwork. Previously I was at 720 seven days post injection. Not sure what’s up with the drop, but not concerned about it either.

Oops, didn’t mean to hijack the thread. Bottom line is that blast and cruise is an option if you are not worried about fertility.[/quote]

have you ever talked to your doc about splitting your injections? the half-life of test e/cyp is around 4-5 days (which seems clear based off your up and down levels). also, you’ll feel better with less fluctuations, and are also less likely to aromatize estrogen if levels are more stable…

also, free test of 660 is pretty high… that’s not total test, correct?


#15

Total test, my bad…ranges are 300-1100. Yes, I suspect my peak is close to twice my trough…For what it’s worth, was at 170 prior to TRT.


#16

Total test, not free…my bad. Lab set ranges are 300-1100. I know that is the trough and the peak is higher than that.

I use a clinic and they don’t want to split shots, don’t do self inject and that is why I’m going to be shopping for a new doc soon.


#17

Alright maybe something got lost in the translation…

What are the pros and cons of being about in between TRT level and below ‘blast/cycle’ levels? Normal being in between of roughly 400 to 1100ng/dL. So if a guy, all other hormones (E2, LDL, hematocrit,…) within range but above 1100ng/dL.

Instead of going hard (cycle) and then slowing down (cruising) what if someone (already on TRT so no need to 'recover") adopts slightly above average free/total test level(for the rest of his life lets say) to have some slow but continuous gains?

Not sure which other way I can explain that…


#18

I already told you it would not do much other than maintain gains made on a blast. Myostatin levels increase with an increase in testosterone levels.


#19

[quote]dt79 wrote:
I already told you it would not do much other than maintain gains made on a blast. Myostatin levels increase with an increase in testosterone levels.[/quote]

Yes I understand that. But if there is no ‘blast’ per say…

You only ‘double up’ (just saying) numbers compare to regular TRT levels…

Analogy, you can drink one beer a day (regulart TRT) or two beers a day (very high TRT) or you can get drunk once a week (regular cycle)…

One beer a day: you feel normal and fine
Get drunk once a week:Amazing night but the next day…or two is a little hard
Two beers/day: You get a little buzz, no hangover and you can do that all your life…!!!

Good analogy?


#20

[quote]nocoolnick wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:
I already told you it would not do much other than maintain gains made on a blast. Myostatin levels increase with an increase in testosterone levels.[/quote]

Yes I understand that. But if there is no ‘blast’ per say…

You only ‘double up’ (just saying) numbers compare to regular TRT levels…

Analogy, you can drink one beer a day (regulart TRT) or two beers a day (very high TRT) or you can get drunk once a week (regular cycle)…

One beer a day: you feel normal and fine
Get drunk once a week:Amazing night but the next day…or two is a little hard
Two beers/day: You get a little buzz, no hangover and you can do that all your life…!!!

Good analogy?[/quote]

I understood your initial question. You don’t seem to understand the answer.

When you do a cycle of 500mg/week, your gains start to slow after 8 weeks. By week 12-14, you either increase dose or PCT.

If you cruise on 500mg/week, you will encounter the same thing, in which you will either have to increase dosage, which will turn it into a blast, or you will be having a similar rate of gains as you would on 100mg/week.

So, if you’re above your natural limit, this will maintain your gains. If you’re NOT over your natural limit, why would you cruise with 500mg/week?