T Nation

Beta Receptors Cleaning

I am getting a lot of conflicting stories on cleaning out your receptors whilst on a ECA stack.
I have heard Benadryl, I have heard Nyquil. Does it make a difference?
Is one week of above mentioned while on the ECA stack enough to keep things going?
Even after the “cleaning” would you still want to take a break every couple of months or so?

Thanks

B0nzz

IMHO “cleaning out the receptors” is bullshit. The receptors themselves have no problem functioning and remain at a constant affinity for their substrates, it’s the downstream biochemical adaptation that occurs after a while. Something similar happens with opiates and morphine derivatives, only with a different outcome. You know, it’s called dependency. :slight_smile: but it isn’t that the receptors are “dirty” or don’t work. It’s that the chemistry has changed–the body’s adapted in some fashion.

I fail to see what either compound is going to achieve.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
IMHO “cleaning out the receptors” is bullshit. The receptors themselves have no problem functioning and remain at a constant affinity for their substrates, it’s the downstream biochemical adaptation that occurs after a while. Something similar happens with opiates and morphine derivatives, only with a different outcome. You know, it’s called dependency. :slight_smile: but it isn’t that the receptors are “dirty” or don’t work. It’s that the chemistry has changed–the body’s adapted in some fashion.

I fail to see what either compound is going to achieve. [/quote]

Isn’t the opiod tolerance caused by increased metabolism? I was under the assumption that for GPCR receptors buildup up intracellular second messengers can inhibit proper fn inside the cell…

[quote]Detroitlionsbaby wrote:
Aragorn wrote:
IMHO “cleaning out the receptors” is bullshit. The receptors themselves have no problem functioning and remain at a constant affinity for their substrates, it’s the downstream biochemical adaptation that occurs after a while. Something similar happens with opiates and morphine derivatives, only with a different outcome. You know, it’s called dependency. :slight_smile: but it isn’t that the receptors are “dirty” or don’t work. It’s that the chemistry has changed–the body’s adapted in some fashion.

I fail to see what either compound is going to achieve.

Isn’t the opiod tolerance caused by increased metabolism? I was under the assumption that for GPCR receptors buildup up intracellular second messengers can inhibit proper fn inside the cell…[/quote]

Yes, I believe this is what happens. I was just trying to simply things by saying “downstream adaptation”. The point I was hoping to make is that the receptors still have a set affinity for the substrate, which is not affected. Therefore the receptors themselves cannot be “cleaned”. You have to correct the downstream jumble–in opioids you’re absolutely right that would be second messengers and everything else.

Im pretty sure receptors can be downregulated as a result of constant activation, that is, the receptors themselves are endocytosed (in the case of an extracellular receptor), causing the total amount of available binding sites to be reduced.

B0nzz, im currently cutting using Clen, and I can say with 100% certainty that my use of 2mg Ketotifen at night noticeably increases the effectiveness of my Clen, ie, I can take less Clen to get the same effect.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Detroitlionsbaby wrote:
Aragorn wrote:
IMHO “cleaning out the receptors” is bullshit. The receptors themselves have no problem functioning and remain at a constant affinity for their substrates, it’s the downstream biochemical adaptation that occurs after a while. Something similar happens with opiates and morphine derivatives, only with a different outcome. You know, it’s called dependency. :slight_smile: but it isn’t that the receptors are “dirty” or don’t work. It’s that the chemistry has changed–the body’s adapted in some fashion.

I fail to see what either compound is going to achieve.

Isn’t the opiod tolerance caused by increased metabolism? I was under the assumption that for GPCR receptors buildup up intracellular second messengers can inhibit proper fn inside the cell…

Yes, I believe this is what happens. I was just trying to simply things by saying “downstream adaptation”. The point I was hoping to make is that the receptors still have a set affinity for the substrate, which is not affected. Therefore the receptors themselves cannot be “cleaned”. You have to correct the downstream jumble–in opioids you’re absolutely right that would be second messengers and everything else.[/quote]

Cool, = )

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
IMHO “cleaning out the receptors” is bullshit. The receptors themselves have no problem functioning and remain at a constant affinity for their substrates, it’s the downstream biochemical adaptation that occurs after a while. Something similar happens with opiates and morphine derivatives, only with a different outcome. You know, it’s called dependency. :slight_smile: but it isn’t that the receptors are “dirty” or don’t work. It’s that the chemistry has changed–the body’s adapted in some fashion.

I fail to see what either compound is going to achieve. [/quote]

i agree with this…if you were to use ECA what i would do is run it pretty hard for 2 weeks then use HOT-ROX extreme for 4 weeks then back to the eca…for me personally i just use HOT-ROX extreme … i get too damn shaky on the ECA myself

also i would not undertake any aggressive fat loss protocol unless i was on a good amount of anabolics…too easy to destroy the lean tissue gains that you have just made while on cycle.

[quote]GGlife wrote:
Im pretty sure receptors can be downregulated as a result of constant activation, that is, the receptors themselves are endocytosed (in the case of an extracellular receptor), causing the total amount of available binding sites to be reduced.
[/quote]

Actually, down-regulation of B2 adrenergic receptors can apparently occur independently of endocytosis.

Here’s a decent paper from a few years back. Not to say that endocytosis doesn’t also play a role…just that there is at least one other mechanism at play.

http://www.jbc.org/content/274/41/28900.full

[quote]whotookmyname wrote:
GGlife wrote:
Im pretty sure receptors can be downregulated as a result of constant activation, that is, the receptors themselves are endocytosed (in the case of an extracellular receptor), causing the total amount of available binding sites to be reduced.

Actually, down-regulation of B2 adrenergic receptors can apparently occur independently of endocytosis.

Here’s a decent paper from a few years back. Not to say that endocytosis doesn’t also play a role…just that there is at least one other mechanism at play.

http://www.jbc.org/content/274/41/28900.full[/quote]

Good call. I was going to say something to the same effect, but you got it. Endocytosis is only one mechanism the body uses to adapt with. I kind of dislike the word down-regulation as its used for all sorts of things and pretty broad–even though I do use it all the time myself in the interests of simplicity on general discussion boards… Depends on the person using it and the context they’re using it in.

So it looks like this whole cleansing thing was brought up by some guy named Anthony Roberts. Any relation to Bill Roberts? But ya his whole theory rests on the idea that diphenhydramine can inhibit activity of PL(B)2. Which may or may not be correct, didnt bother to look BECAUSE THAT IS HOW DESENSITIZATION OCCURS IN ALPHA RECEPTORS. Beta Receptors regulationa are primarily controled by B-Arrestin.

[quote]Detroitlionsbaby wrote:
So it looks like this whole cleansing thing was brought up by some guy named Anthony Roberts. Any relation to Bill Roberts? But ya his whole theory rests on the idea that diphenhydramine can inhibit activity of PL(B)2. Which may or may not be correct, didnt bother to look BECAUSE THAT IS HOW DESENSITIZATION OCCURS IN ALPHA RECEPTORS. Beta Receptors regulationa are primarily controled by B-Arrestin.[/quote]

lol DetroitLB, I’m guessing that you’re well aware of the reputation of AR, but talk of “cleansing” aside, studies looking at ketotifen and B2-adrenergic receptor populations did emerge from some genuine research facilities. They were studying it alongside clen, not EC-type mixes, mind you. I’m pretty sure there has been some more recent work that suggests less of an effect, but I’m not having any luck digging it up.


[quote]whotookmyname wrote:
Detroitlionsbaby wrote:
So it looks like this whole cleansing thing was brought up by some guy named Anthony Roberts. Any relation to Bill Roberts? But ya his whole theory rests on the idea that diphenhydramine can inhibit activity of PL(B)2. Which may or may not be correct, didnt bother to look BECAUSE THAT IS HOW DESENSITIZATION OCCURS IN ALPHA RECEPTORS. Beta Receptors regulationa are primarily controled by B-Arrestin.

lol DetroitLB, I’m guessing that you’re well aware of the reputation of AR, but talk of “cleansing” aside, studies looking at ketotifen and B2-adrenergic receptor populations did emerge from some genuine research facilities. They were studying it alongside clen, not EC-type mixes, mind you. I’m pretty sure there has been some more recent work that suggests less of an effect, but I’m not having any luck digging it up.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1964319[/quote]

Well, thanks for making me look like an ARSE, WTM! ; )

I will look through those tomorrow and try to find some flaws. = )

[quote]Detroitlionsbaby wrote:
whotookmyname wrote:
Detroitlionsbaby wrote:
So it looks like this whole cleansing thing was brought up by some guy named Anthony Roberts. Any relation to Bill Roberts? But ya his whole theory rests on the idea that diphenhydramine can inhibit activity of PL(B)2. Which may or may not be correct, didnt bother to look BECAUSE THAT IS HOW DESENSITIZATION OCCURS IN ALPHA RECEPTORS. Beta Receptors regulationa are primarily controled by B-Arrestin.

lol DetroitLB, I’m guessing that you’re well aware of the reputation of AR, but talk of “cleansing” aside, studies looking at ketotifen and B2-adrenergic receptor populations did emerge from some genuine research facilities. They were studying it alongside clen, not EC-type mixes, mind you. I’m pretty sure there has been some more recent work that suggests less of an effect, but I’m not having any luck digging it up.


Well, thanks for making me look like an ARSE, WTM! ; )

I will look through those tomorrow and try to find some flaws. = )[/quote]

…you are aware of Anthony Roberts’ aka “hooker’s” reputation (or lack thereof) right? Couldn’t tell from your response. Obviously no relation to Bill R of course. My sarcasm detector could jsut be broken.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Detroitlionsbaby wrote:
whotookmyname wrote:
Detroitlionsbaby wrote:
So it looks like this whole cleansing thing was brought up by some guy named Anthony Roberts. Any relation to Bill Roberts? But ya his whole theory rests on the idea that diphenhydramine can inhibit activity of PL(B)2. Which may or may not be correct, didnt bother to look BECAUSE THAT IS HOW DESENSITIZATION OCCURS IN ALPHA RECEPTORS. Beta Receptors regulationa are primarily controled by B-Arrestin.

lol DetroitLB, I’m guessing that you’re well aware of the reputation of AR, but talk of “cleansing” aside, studies looking at ketotifen and B2-adrenergic receptor populations did emerge from some genuine research facilities. They were studying it alongside clen, not EC-type mixes, mind you. I’m pretty sure there has been some more recent work that suggests less of an effect, but I’m not having any luck digging it up.


Well, thanks for making me look like an ARSE, WTM! ; )

I will look through those tomorrow and try to find some flaws. = )

…you are aware of Anthony Roberts’ aka “hooker’s” reputation (or lack thereof) right? Couldn’t tell from your response. Obviously no relation to Bill R of course. My sarcasm detector could jsut be broken.[/quote]

No, I haven’t ever heard of Anthony Roberts before this…

Some of the Vets have issue with some of his theories . I have asked questions about some of his PCT theories and the response I got was “I read it until I saw A. Roberts and stopped” so I m not sure about that. The PCT that intrigued me was here ++http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/anthony-roberts/post-cycle-therapy.htm ++

There is a description of most AAS as well. I gained a lot of info and don’t know why the Vets have issue with him…

B0nzz

[quote]B0nzz wrote:
Some of the Vets have issue with some of his theories . I have asked questions about some of his PCT theories and the response I got was “I read it until I saw A. Roberts and stopped” so I m not sure about that. The PCT that intrigued me was here ++http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/anthony-roberts/post-cycle-therapy.htm ++

There is a description of most AAS as well. I gained a lot of info and don’t know why the Vets have issue with him…

B0nzz[/quote]

Boy, if only Rainjack were still around to explain…you don’t have an issue with vast quantities of profanity and made-up conglomerations of epithets mixed with your explanations, do you? :smiley:

Look up some old threads. The wars were epic.

I don’t have time to look around and link them, but maybe some of the others who were here can tell you the short short version.

OH, no shit…
Ill do a search…

Thanks
B0nzz

In all honesty, it comes down to the fact that he had done jail time, and many people felt he was pretty dishonest and a pseudo-scammer. Also I believe he got on the bad side of Bill R and some of the other vets in a couple science arguments.

He had some entertaining articles (I think his DNP one here was the most interesting read for me) but I don’t think many of the vets pay any attention to him for information’s sake.

Aragorn, thanks that puts some things in perspective.

I couldn’t find any posts from A Roberts but Rainjack seems like fun to let him loose on someone…

The devastation was immense.

Only wish RJ was still around these parts. He’s left the site. Not sure how many of those old threads made the last couple format switches with the site.