T Nation

Best Window for Bulking

I’ve been doing a lot of research these past four months and have concluded that to obtain optimum lean muscle mass without gaining fat (Actually burning it) one should follow a routine within these guidelines…

As I understand it:

6 MEALS COMPLETED DURING THIS TIME FRAME -(1 Day)-

Morning - Afternoon (Pre-Workout)
0830 - 1230

Two meals consisting of:

  • 40% Protein
  • 40% Carbs
  • 20% Fats

-WORKOUT-
1300 - 1430

Afternoon (Post-Workout)
1430 - 1630

Two meals consisting of:

  • 60% Carbs
  • 30% Protein
  • 10% Fats

Evening (Recovery)
1830 - 2030

Two meals consisting of:

  • 50% Protein
  • 40% Fats
  • 10% Carbs

Now, I’ve found that to gain the most mass you must implement a 67% carb/ 37% protein ratio. That’s great for muscle mass but what about fat loss? What about the fats? How about a 60% carb/ 30% protein/ 10% fat ratio? It seems by taking good fats, Omega 3,6,etc… one can actually burn fatty storage units. So one should be able to both “Bulk” and “Cut” during the same phase!

That’s impossible you say? The optimum time to take in carbohydrates seems to be right after an “intense” workout and then followed by another massive dose of carbs one to two hours later. Chris T. takes his fats in towards the latter part of the evening along with more protein and less carbs. This is spawned by the idea that proteins are the repairing mechanism for muscles.

Here’s a theory:

CARBS = MUSCLE GAIN (Through Energy?)
PROTEIN = MUSCLE RECOVERY
FATS = FAT LOSS

There seems to be so much hype in ingesting tons of proteins one forgets about the other vital nutrients the body needs. Well, what about the carbs and fats? If these are provided during the specified time-frames, I stated above, shouldn’t that not only help you gain muscle mass but allow you to burn fat more efficiently as well? I believe the best formula for fat loss and muscle gains are these:

-CUTTING-

Consumed during the evening:

  • 50% Proteins
  • 40% Fats
  • 10% Carbs

And let’s not forget bulking:

-BULKING-

Consumed Post-Workout:

  • 60% Carbs
  • 30% Proteins
  • 10% Fats

Morning should be the transition phase from cutting to bulking. Using the ratio provided above one should find their protein and carb intake evenly matched with a 20% fat intake.

So I’ve been told you cannot bulk and cut during the same month. Well, I call bullshit!!

-OD-

I don’t think any one will say you can’t build pure lean mass or even gain mass and lose fat…

But after 2-3 years who is going to have more muscle:

A. They guy who tried to gain only lean mass over that time

B. The guy who spent a good deal of time bulking with some fat gain then cut

???

[quote]JNeves wrote:
I don’t think any one will say you can’t build pure lean mass or even gain mass and lose fat…

But after 2-3 years who is going to have more muscle:

A. They guy who tried to gain only lean mass over that time

B. The guy who spent a good deal of time bulking with some fat gain then cut

???[/quote]

The answer to this question is simple. Someone who’s been working out the better part of their life develops what’s called muscle memory – so I’m told. During a lay-off period you would tend to lose muscle. However, once you come back to training you put the muscle on you lost, faster than you did when you originally gained it. This is muscle memory.

Now, let’s talk about fat. If I’m correct on this your body creates and stores fat in fat cells. When you burn fat you initially deplete these cells of their energy, not destroying them completely. So you’ve lost some fat. Great… Now it’s the holidays and it’s time to gorge like lions who sprang a fresh kill! Guess what, just like muscle memory, you put fat on faster than what it took initially to gain it. That’s because the cells were never destroyed, just depleted of the fatty crap inside them.

Following a bulking routine, that initially puts on muscle while continually burning carbs for energy and not fat, you find that your body has no need for fat storage anymore. I guess this makes the fatty cells feel unwanted and they see themselves of lesser versions that they once were and shrivel away. It’s a thought…

I’m by far no expert on this matter. Hell, if you want a good laugh check out one of my first posts, LOL, “Gaining Momentum”. Anyway, I’m a little more savy, nutrition wise, and I want to get big and ripped!!! Who doesn’t? So this post is to raise questions and eyebrows. Questions that a lot of us need answering.

T-Nation (Men and Women), feel free to drop links and chime in.

OD

Wow, compare this to Demon’s original posts.

[quote]cap’nsalty wrote:
Wow, compare this to Demon’s original posts.[/quote]

Why you shouldn’t mix HOT-ROX and Spike!

[quote]Original_Demon wrote:
Now, let’s talk about fat. If I’m correct on this your body creates and stores fat in fat cells. When you burn fat you initially deplete these cells of their energy, not destroying them completely. So you’ve lost some fat. Great… Now it’s the holidays and it’s time to gorge like lions who sprang a fresh kill! Guess what, just like muscle memory, you put fat on faster than what it took initially to gain it. That’s because the cells were never destroyed, just depleted of the fatty crap inside them.

Following a bulking routine, that initially puts on muscle while continually burning carbs for energy and not fat, you find that your body has no need for fat storage anymore. I guess this makes the fatty cells feel unwanted and they see themselves of lesser versions that they once were and shrivel away. It’s a thought…
[/quote]

Yes, a wrong thought. You don’t shrivel away fat cells. Past the age of about 16, you have all of the fat cells you will ever have. They don’t disappear, melt, or any other words that have been used by thermogenic ads. The only way to get rid of fat cells is through liposuction. Otherwise, while you can empty them out by dieting, you still have the same number of cells. Bottom line, the previous poster was right. Over the same time period, the guy who tried to avoid any and all fat gain will no doubt gain less muscle than the guy who made sure his body had enough food to grow at all times, even if that meant some fat gain. The goal is to not let it get out of hand.

Prof X,

I meant shrivel away, as in “shrink” in size. However, Guarana combined with CLA has been shown to reduce fat cell numbers. And as far as eating and gaining fat with the muscle… it’s a bad idea. I’m not trying to become a power-lifter, strongman here. I’m trying to become a bodybuilder with the proper training and diet to get there. And not only can bulking and cutting be used effectively during one month, you don’t have to worry about croaking because your arteries are full of fat!!! There should be no confusion about gaining mass and keeping the fat at bay.

Here’s something to keep in mind… Don’t bother building a bridge if you’re foundation is not made to support the weight.

OD

[quote]Original_Demon wrote:
Prof X,

I meant shrivel away, as in “shrink” in size. However, Guarana combined with CLA has been shown to reduce fat cell numbers.

[/quote]

Please provide your source as proof of this.

[quote]
And as far as eating and gaining fat with the muscle… it’s a bad idea. I’m not trying to become a power-lifter, strongman here. I’m trying to become a bodybuilder with the proper training and diet to get there. And not only can bulking and cutting be used effectively during one month, you don’t have to worry about croaking because your arteries are full of fat!!! There should be no confusion about gaining mass and keeping the fat at bay. [/quote]

Right. Apparently, every bodybuilder who ever graced the stage before the extensive use of thyroid hormone and GH all had it wrong.

[quote]
Here’s something to keep in mind… Don’t bother building a bridge if you’re foundation is not made to support the weight.

OD [/quote]

Gee, here’s another, “he who makes up quotes that don’t apply to the topic at hand takes up extra bandwidth for no reason”.

[quote]Original_Demon wrote:

The answer to this question is simple. Someone who’s been working out the better part of their life develops what’s called muscle memory – so I’m told. During a lay-off period you would tend to lose muscle. However, once you come back to training you put the muscle on you lost, faster than you did when you originally gained it. This is muscle memory.

Now, let’s talk about fat. If I’m correct on this your body creates and stores fat in fat cells. When you burn fat you initially deplete these cells of their energy, not destroying them completely. So you’ve lost some fat. Great… Now it’s the holidays and it’s time to gorge like lions who sprang a fresh kill! Guess what, just like muscle memory, you put fat on faster than what it took initially to gain it. That’s because the cells were never destroyed, just depleted of the fatty crap inside them.

Following a bulking routine, that initially puts on muscle while continually burning carbs for energy and not fat, you find that your body has no need for fat storage anymore. I guess this makes the fatty cells feel unwanted and they see themselves of lesser versions that they once were and shrivel away. It’s a thought…

I’m by far no expert on this matter. Hell, if you want a good laugh check out one of my first posts, LOL, “Gaining Momentum”. Anyway, I’m a little more savy, nutrition wise, and I want to get big and ripped!!! Who doesn’t? So this post is to raise questions and eyebrows. Questions that a lot of us need answering.

T-Nation (Men and Women), feel free to drop links and chime in.

OD

[/quote]

Honestly I don’t see where you answered my question or what your arguing with this post :-p Are you saying while building muscle your body doesnt want to store fat, or that with your previous dietery recomendations it won’t want to store fat? (trying to clarify this post of yours)

Also you bring up a good point of muscle memory as my belief is bulking-cutting-lean gain are a natural order facilitaded by muscle memory (and CNS/pshycological benifits of moving heavy weight when bulking)

[quote]JNeves wrote:
Original_Demon wrote:

The answer to this question is simple. Someone who’s been working out the better part of their life develops what’s called muscle memory – so I’m told. During a lay-off period you would tend to lose muscle. However, once you come back to training you put the muscle on you lost, faster than you did when you originally gained it. This is muscle memory.

Now, let’s talk about fat. If I’m correct on this your body creates and stores fat in fat cells. When you burn fat you initially deplete these cells of their energy, not destroying them completely. So you’ve lost some fat. Great… Now it’s the holidays and it’s time to gorge like lions who sprang a fresh kill! Guess what, just like muscle memory, you put fat on faster than what it took initially to gain it. That’s because the cells were never destroyed, just depleted of the fatty crap inside them.

Following a bulking routine, that initially puts on muscle while continually burning carbs for energy and not fat, you find that your body has no need for fat storage anymore. I guess this makes the fatty cells feel unwanted and they see themselves of lesser versions that they once were and shrivel away. It’s a thought…

I’m by far no expert on this matter. Hell, if you want a good laugh check out one of my first posts, LOL, “Gaining Momentum”. Anyway, I’m a little more savy, nutrition wise, and I want to get big and ripped!!! Who doesn’t? So this post is to raise questions and eyebrows. Questions that a lot of us need answering.

T-Nation (Men and Women), feel free to drop links and chime in.

OD

Honestly I don’t see where you answered my question or what your arguing with this post :-p Are you saying while building muscle your body doesnt want to store fat, or that with your previous dietery recomendations it won’t want to store fat? (trying to clarify this post of yours)

Also you bring up a good point of muscle memory as my belief is bulking-cutting-lean gain are a natural order facilitaded by muscle memory (and CNS/pshycological benifits of moving heavy weight when bulking)[/quote]

Yes… You read me right… I think…

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Original_Demon wrote:
Prof X,

I meant shrivel away, as in “shrink” in size. However, Guarana combined with CLA has been shown to reduce fat cell numbers.

Please provide your source as proof of this.

And as far as eating and gaining fat with the muscle… it’s a bad idea. I’m not trying to become a power-lifter, strongman here. I’m trying to become a bodybuilder with the proper training and diet to get there. And not only can bulking and cutting be used effectively during one month, you don’t have to worry about croaking because your arteries are full of fat!!! There should be no confusion about gaining mass and keeping the fat at bay.

Right. Apparently, every bodybuilder who ever graced the stage before the extensive use of thyroid hormone and GH all had it wrong.

Here’s something to keep in mind… Don’t bother building a bridge if you’re foundation is not made to support the weight.

OD

Gee, here’s another, “he who makes up quotes that don’t apply to the topic at hand takes up extra bandwidth for no reason”.[/quote]

Sorry, I can’t respond with the sources you asked for. If you are in need of proof there is about 5000 of them on the internet. Good Day…

OD

[quote]Original_Demon wrote:

Sorry, I can’t respond with the sources you asked for. If you are in need of proof there is about 5000 of them on the internet. Good Day…

OD[/quote]

Wow!

Nothing like making an outlandish claim and backing it up with hot air.

OD,

This is not intended as a flame, just the truth. I think you might have good intentions, but your “research” is severly lacking. How did you come up with the 67%/33% carb/protein ratio. That is a ridiculous generalization. 10% of calories from fat are best??? No, that is very wrong.

“fatty cells feel unwanted and they see themselves of lesser versions that they once were and shrivel away.”
Please don’t hurt their feelings. Maybe if I can make them feel unwanted, they will scurry off.

“you don’t have to worry about croaking because your arteries are full of fat!!!”

Please tell me how gaining some fat during bulking is unhealthy??? Many times the same behaviors that make people unhealthy make them fat. Its not the being overweight that is unhealthy in and of itself. If you bulk on healthy foods, what is the health risk if you are 10-15% body fat?? Please tell me. Is bodybuilder lean healthy??

I have read some of your other posts. While you might have the best intentions, you will be better served by learning more before you dish out advice. The reason I bring this up is because this site is loaded with lifters new to the game. It would be a shame if some of them read your post and tried to follow this inaccurate dogma.

Hot Air? Tisk, tisk…

I’m trying to create a discussion here about an idea that I did not create. I’m not here to create Illusions of Grandeaur! Every single statement I have formulated is from indepth, meticulous study within the walls of this site and through numerous books, magazines, and other educational websites, and hands-on experience.

CLA - (Conjugated Linoleic Acid), Quallity fatty Acid “proven” for effective weightloss.

Guarana - (Herb) A unique plant from Brazil similar to that of the effects of caffeine.

Mix the two together and you have an effective weightloss formula that not only reduces fat cell size, but declines their numbers as well.

And as far as the other claims I’m making, just look in the pages in this site from Chris T. and other headliners. And if that still does not satisfy your hunger for knowledge, much like mine, explore other alternatives. If you find productive, or counter-productive literature, please post it.

I’m by no means a professional on this topic. I’m here to formulate questions and find out the answers to them. Find me one bodybuilder that is not interested in looking lean all year long while increasing mass without using harmful steroids.

-Note-

If you do not have any answers or questions regarding education of this topic please refrain from typing senseless babble. It makes you look unintelligent and detracts from the given subject at hand. I will do my best to guide you through links to help you achieve higher learning. Links that don’t include products that is…

Thank You,
OD

Drewd,

Now those are the replies I’m looking for.

Please refrain from trying to judge the person you think I am from my past posts. I did not take this site very seriously at the time do to the topics that were posted and the childish replies they warranted. It looked like a “Dog and Pony Show” to me at first glance.

Anyway, keep the replies coming with, hopefully, some substantial “meat and potatoes” to go with them.

Thanks,
OD

I see much speak of nutrient timing and nutrient ratios

but how do you manage calories to specificly gain muscle and loose fat? You can’t just rely on what you eat… in my opinion its more important how much you eat

…also while CLA has some significant scientific studies behind it many experts are still considering in inconclusive and real world experiance is less then impressive.

[quote]Original_Demon wrote:

CLA - (Conjugated Linoleic Acid), Quallity fatty Acid “proven” for effective weightloss.

Guarana - (Herb) A unique plant from Brazil similar to that of the effects of caffeine.

Mix the two together and you have an effective weightloss formula that not only reduces fat cell size, but declines their numbers as well.

OD [/quote]

Still waiting for the scientific reference that this combo reduces the number of fat cells…

[quote]Original_Demon wrote:
CLA - (Conjugated Linoleic Acid), Quallity fatty Acid “proven” for effective weightloss.

Guarana - (Herb) A unique plant from Brazil similar to that of the effects of caffeine.

Mix the two together and you have an effective weightloss formula that not only reduces fat cell size, but declines their numbers as well.
[/quote]

Honestly, do you think that everyone responding to you so far is uneducated? Did you think I asked you for sources because your post was the first time I was exposed to this information? I am sure that plastic surgeons across the country will be quite upset when their patients find out that all they needed was a cheap CLA and caffeine supplement to actually get rid of fat cells instead of thousand dollar liposuction. The two suplements you mentioned are not new. They were the base of hundreds of different thermogenic products before the ephedra ban along with hydroxycitric acid and even l-carnitine. Your post was the first time I ever heard it claimed that these products actally get rid of fat cells themselves. If it is true, I would sure as hell like to read about it and am wondering why this info hasn’t rocked the scientific community as well as supplement stores across the nation. The ad campaign alone would be pure magic.

Beyond that, your concept of bulking up seems skewed, along with the belief that fat is so unnecessary that keeping it at or below 10% of total daily intake is a good thing…despite studies that show that testosterone can actually decrease in diets below 20% fat intake.

I am all for discussion of the topics. I am all for learning. I wouldn’t have responded at all if you were my primary source of information so why come down on everyone who has challenged your original idea?

senseless babble?

I think someone else is offering more than enough on this thread.

All I’d like to see is one credible reference that the combination of CLA and Guarana decreases the number of fat cells.

Too many people get on sites like this and start spreading nonsence as if it were the truth. Please refrain from making such statements without a greater understanding of the topic.

[quote]JNeves wrote:
I see much speak of nutrient timing and nutrient ratios

but how do you manage calories to specificly gain muscle and loose fat? You can’t just rely on what you eat… in my opinion its more important how much you eat

…also while CLA has some significant scientific studies behind it many experts are still considering in inconclusive and real world experiance is less then impressive.[/quote]

Here’s an example of nutrient timing:

Surge is a “post-workout” supplement. The directions for usage explicitly suggest immediate consumption after workout. It also states for best gains in muscle mass one should then consume a meal with a 67% carbohydrate 37% protein ratio. It also states that if one is cutting to use a 67% protein ratio instead.

CT, among others, stated that they consume greater carb ratios during the earlier part of the day and after workout. Than he switches to a nutrient composition of “Higher Protein”, “Higher Fats”, “Less Carbs”, during the latter part of the day after the post-workout phase. Before bed you consume a high protein/ low carb meal. This keeps the system in an anabolic state during sleep.

This is still confusing to me:

How can one stay in an anabolic state while converting to a catabolic state without burning muscle? Does the secret lie in the fats consumed that evening? This I’m unsure on and could use some clarification.

OD