Best Way to Build Upper Pec Region

[quote]ab_power wrote:
One observation, take what you want from it…

When someone is doing flies, look at the path that the elbows trace, no matter what it looks like the same movement that the elbows do during a bench press. So could it be that flies are just like a elbows-flared benchpress with super-light weight? maybe thats why they might not work very well.

[/quote]

That has always been the point being made. You can’t go very heavy at all on flyes which gets rid of any true usefullness they may have when it comes to building large amounts of muscle mass. I use the pec deck if I want to simulate the movement.

No, they dont build large amounts of mass… but they have a place, or the pec deck obviously, i just mean a “flye-ing movement” is a neccessity to help build a full chest.

For me it certainly is anyway, as i mentioned, i just cant get the width otherwise. And the inner seperation was helped with the pec deck too…

But presses all round… slightly off, but also on topic, i broke my bench plateau today… so i did 100kgs for 5 reps - totally mind over matter on that one… and the point? A fantastic, all over, chest pump… telling me i have some lovely adaptation going to result from that! No flyes are gonna give me the bulk i get from heavy, strict pressing.

But a neccessary ancillary exercise all the same. Just my opinion

Joe

You’re correct, but I think when people refer to “outer” pecs they’re referring only to the portion close to the delt tie-in. I’ve always found that dumbbell presses holding the dumbbells together (actually pushing them together) with the handles in-line with each other places more stress on that region. Only as an addendum to ordinary pressing, of course since you can;t go as heavy.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Radjxf wrote:
I find it a bit odd that some think there is an upper and lower pec, but no inner and outer. I think there are only pec majors and minors. To each his own.
Most barrel-chested guys with huge pecs often debunk anything except heavy pressing as a waste of time.
However, in my experience with horrid chest genetics, I have to try everything possible to make them grow.
The only things that help “non-barrel-chested” guys like me have been:

Heavy flyes
Pre and post exhaustion
Using multiple bench angles–primarily 0*~35*
Hanging rings–I have chains hanging from the rafters in my basement with handles attached. Need to use these more!

Your chest is spread over a very wide area. That makes hitting upper fibers more than lower fibers a possiblity related to the degree or angle of resistance. You can NOT do the same with “inner and outer” because the same fibers at the outside are the same ones on the inside. [/quote]

[quote]Dirty Gerdy wrote:
PF_88 wrote:
I personally like flies, would never use them over bench presses but usually have them in my routine. Why the not so fondness of them?

I’ve never really felt them in my chest. I never feel like I get a good workout from them. It seems to target my shoulders a little more than my chest. Now with cables on the other hand. It hits the chest pretty well. lol

Gerdy[/quote]

Your grip and the angle of your arms in relation to the torso is everything.

Anyone who doesn’t believe me should stand in front of a mirror with their shirts off. Raise your arms straight out in front of you, palms facing up, elbows pointed down, like a beggar asking for food, and cross them over your chest. Notice how your pecs do all the work, instead of the deltoids. The upper arm needs to stay in maximal external rotation throughout the movement.

This is the only way that anyone should do flyes (neutral grip can be used rarely, overhand never as it exclusively targets the front delts). If you are doing cable or DB Flyes you are also wasting your time. The ROM has to be extremely precise if you want to target the proper area. Free weights are out, only machines will do it.

The difference between hitting your lower pec and the upper pec is half an inch of ROM, at the most. If you lower your arms by half an inch in relation to the torso you are changing the angle by about 15 degrees. That alone, will ruin your ability to target the upper pecs. The heavier you go with free weights, the harder it becomes to control the movement and stay in the proper rom.

That’s why people who lift heavy with free weights all the time are often frustrated by their their lack of progress in regards to hypertrophy. It’s a good way to get injured without improving your appearance, though.

Leave the free weights to the fat guys who “just want to move heavy shit” and “don’t want to see their muscles”.

Seriously.

P.S. Now some fat guy is going to insult me.

Anyone who knows functional anatomy knows that the “fly movement” isolates the precise biomechanical function of the pectorals. Pressing does not.

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:

P.S. Now some fat guy is going to insult me.

Anyone who knows functional anatomy knows that the “fly movement” isolates the precise biomechanical function of the pectorals. Pressing does not.[/quote]

LOL!!!

Adduction of the humerus occurs during a pressing movement…dumbass.

[quote]Der Candy wrote:
Am I wrong?[/quote]

Yes. Powerlifters press more than anybody and they are known for having relatively small pecs. Many of them also exhibit that gap in the clavicular region of the pectorals that comes from too much pressing and not enough isolation work.

It’s because pressing is primarily a shoulder and triceps movement. Where chest is involved, it’s the lower chest for most individuals. The only people who get full chest development from presses are short and stocky types, like Arnold’s pal Franco.

Bench press is an ego lift like most compound exercises.

What a sad choice bodybuilders have.
Be a “fat guy who can;t see his muscles” or a “skinny runt who can see all his bones”.

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:

Leave the free weights to the fat guys who “just want to move heavy shit” and “don’t want to see their muscles”.

Seriously.

P.S. Now some fat guy is going to insult me.

Anyone who knows functional anatomy knows that the “fly movement” isolates the precise biomechanical function of the pectorals. Pressing does not.[/quote]

Welcome to the Jungle.

Example of PLer with a huge bench press and relatively small chest, measurements given:

http://www.pacaf.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123035249

He benches 450 lbs. more I do yet his chest is only 5" larger. Less, if you control for the difference in BF%. Also says that he has been training for years to get that big.

He could drop 200 lbs. off his bench and add 4 inches to his chest. Nobody on the street, no woman alive, and at least 70% of the people at any gym don’t give a shit how much you lift.

As Bob Chicerillo says, why lift a lot when you can LOOK like you lift a lot?

There is no situation in life that calls for the strength of a 300+ bench, deadlift, or squat.

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
Welcome to the Jungle.[/quote]

Hopefully, anyone with any sense can see all of the trees are provided by you.

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:

Anyone who knows functional anatomy knows that the “fly movement” isolates the precise biomechanical function of the pectorals. Pressing does not.[/quote]

I didn’t realize that the pecs weren’t abducting the humerus during bench presses =/

Really, fly movements are going to cause enough of a response to put on a a decent amount of mass without pressing movements =\

If you see this kid’s posting history he is not worth replying intelligently to. I recall he once bumped a TWO YEAR OLD thread merely to vent his frustrations on another member. Its a good thing he is in the “jungle” that he has conjured up by himself with a moronic sampling of his choice. Make a snarky comment or two and get on with being serious.

[quote]JoeG254 wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:

Anyone who knows functional anatomy knows that the “fly movement” isolates the precise biomechanical function of the pectorals. Pressing does not.

I didn’t realize that the pecs weren’t abducting the humerus during bench presses =/

Really, fly movements are going to cause enough of a response to put on a a decent amount of mass without pressing movements =\

[/quote]

[quote]UkpairehMombooto wrote:
If you see this kid’s posting history he is not worth replying intelligently to. I recall he once bumped a TWO YEAR OLD thread merely to vent his frustrations on another member. Its a good thing he is in the “jungle” that he has conjured up by himself with a moronic sampling of his choice. Make a snarky comment or two and get on with being serious.

JoeG254 wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:

Anyone who knows functional anatomy knows that the “fly movement” isolates the precise biomechanical function of the pectorals. Pressing does not.

I didn’t realize that the pecs weren’t abducting the humerus during bench presses =/

Really, fly movements are going to cause enough of a response to put on a a decent amount of mass without pressing movements =[/quote]

I don’t normally check thread dates. If a comment is worth posting, I’ll write it.

The layout and nature of this site is such that posting on old topics is encouraged. That’s why we have archives dating back to 1999.

[quote]JoeG254 wrote:
Really, fly movements are going to cause enough of a response to put on a a decent amount of mass without pressing movements =[/quote]

A 270 lb. bench press puts the same amount of stress on the pecs as a 90 lb. fly.

When you bench, the load is being distributed among the shoulders, triceps, and pecs.

When you do flys properly, the load is going on the pecs and nowhere else.

270/3 = 90

Use more muscles = increased load distribution = move more weight

There is nothing special about it and it doesn’t result in greater stimulation of any one muscle group (the opposite is true, in fact).

Compounds also shift stress away from muscles and onto the bone structure, which further dimishes hypertrophy potential.

Did I mention the use of momentum with heavy compounds? Subtract even more stress from the target muscle group.

Did I mention stabilizers? Subtract even more stress from the target muscle group.

Give a little here, give a little there.

Pretty soon, you get a 300 lb. bench which is roughly equivalent, in terms of potential for chest hypertrophy, to doing flyes with a pair 15 lb. dumbbells.

Which is precisely why so many “strong” guys don’t really look the part, and most of them have a bad attitude about it (“powa-lifta? I thought he was one of those competitive eaters”.

To suggest other than I’ve written is to make a mockery of simple physics and mechanics

You CAN’T get something for nothing. Energy is always conserved.

If you can do 100 lbs max on one exercise, and 300 lbs. on another, recognize that you are giving something up in order to lift heavier on the second exercise. The amount you are “giving up” is going to be proportional to the amount that you gain in the lift. There is no net change, you have not actually “increased” anything. You’ve simply swapped coefficients in an equation.

Physics for fatboys.

The fastest way to hypertrophy is to perfectly isolate the biomechanical function of a muscle and subject it to extreme tension within that ROM. Weight, reps, and sets are almost irrelevant, muscles only know tension. You should train for the pump because it lets you know that’ve targetted the muscle accurately. Your workout ends when the muscle is fully pumped. You train it again as soon as the DOMs subsides.

There’s the manifesto. If this goes against everything that has ever been written on this site, recognize that it should. There is a reason why T-Nation has begun to cater to the hypertrophy-minded crowd after beginning as a haven for fatboys. Real powerlifters only exist in Ohio and on internet forums. Everybody else wants to be a bodybuilder.

[quote]Joe Joseph wrote:
No, they dont build large amounts of mass… but they have a place, or the pec deck obviously, i just mean a “flye-ing movement” is a neccessity to help build a full chest.

For me it certainly is anyway, as i mentioned, i just cant get the width otherwise. And the inner seperation was helped with the pec deck too…

But presses all round… slightly off, but also on topic, i broke my bench plateau today… so i did 100kgs for 5 reps - totally mind over matter on that one… and the point? A fantastic, all over, chest pump… telling me i have some lovely adaptation going to result from that! No flyes are gonna give me the bulk i get from heavy, strict pressing.

But a neccessary ancillary exercise all the same. Just my opinion

Joe[/quote]

You make a lot of sense here Joe. I agree.

And congrats on getting through that plateu finally. :stuck_out_tongue:

Gerdy

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
Welcome to the Jungle.

Example of PLer with a huge bench press and relatively small chest, measurements given:

http://www.pacaf.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123035249

He benches 450 lbs. more I do yet his chest is only 5" larger. Less, if you control for the difference in BF%. Also says that he has been training for years to get that big.

He could drop 200 lbs. off his bench and add 4 inches to his chest. Nobody on the street, no woman alive, and at least 70% of the people at any gym don’t give a shit how much you lift.

As Bob Chicerillo says, why lift a lot when you can LOOK like you lift a lot?

There is no situation in life that calls for the strength of a 300+ bench, deadlift, or squat.[/quote]

I was going to ask you about athletics but you’re right, why would you ever want to be strong, god.

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:

He benches 450 lbs. more I do yet his chest is only 5" larger. Less, if you control for the difference in BF%. Also says that he has been training for years to get that big.[/quote]

Laughing my fucking ass off at “only 5” larger". I would love to see how long it takes you to build that extra 5" or even come close to understanding the increase in strength it would take to get there.

You are a true idiot.

That “only 5” larger" is like comparing a newbie to a seasoned weight lifter of ten years. How can you see the computer screen past your own bullshit?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:

He benches 450 lbs. more I do yet his chest is only 5" larger. Less, if you control for the difference in BF%. Also says that he has been training for years to get that big.

Laughing my fucking ass off at “only 5” larger". I would love to see how long it takes you to build that extra 5" or even come close to understanding the increase in strength it would take to get there.

You are a true idiot.

That “only 5” larger" is like comparing a newbie to a seasoned weight lifter of ten years. How can you see the computer screen past your own bullshit?[/quote]

Hes so stupid that had he had fewer posts, or the length of them would’ve been smaller there really wouldnt be a question that he was a troll.

Edit: holy shit hes a personal trainer, god help us

[quote]Defekt wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:

He benches 450 lbs. more I do yet his chest is only 5" larger. Less, if you control for the difference in BF%. Also says that he has been training for years to get that big.

Laughing my fucking ass off at “only 5” larger". I would love to see how long it takes you to build that extra 5" or even come close to understanding the increase in strength it would take to get there.

You are a true idiot.

That “only 5” larger" is like comparing a newbie to a seasoned weight lifter of ten years. How can you see the computer screen past your own bullshit?

Hes so stupid that had he had fewer posts, or the length of them would’ve been smaller there really wouldnt be a question that he was a troll.

Edit: holy shit hes a personal trainer, god help us[/quote]

It’s dumbasses like that who walk in a gym and start degrading every guy who has more muscle than them as if it is insignificant. It took me YEARS to build that 5", yet some scrawny personal trainer for a gym franchise actually thinks he is in the same ballpark.

That attitude is the very thing we are fighting on this website and throughout the entire training world. Every jackass with the smallest amount of muscle now thinks they are experts because they can balance on one leg while curling 35lbs. Even worse, they think all of those years to build a great amount of size come so easily that they have to make sure they don’t accidentally get that big.

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
Welcome to the Jungle.

Example of PLer with a huge bench press and relatively small chest, measurements given:

http://www.pacaf.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123035249

He benches 450 lbs. more I do yet his chest is only 5" larger. Less, if you control for the difference in BF%. Also says that he has been training for years to get that big.

He could drop 200 lbs. off his bench and add 4 inches to his chest. Nobody on the street, no woman alive, and at least 70% of the people at any gym don’t give a shit how much you lift.

As Bob Chicerillo says, why lift a lot when you can LOOK like you lift a lot?

There is no situation in life that calls for the strength of a 300+ bench, deadlift, or squat.[/quote]

You’re that guy who thinks he’s immortal right?

[quote]Defekt wrote:
I was going to ask you about athletics but you’re right, why would you ever want to be strong, god. [/quote]

Oh, please. Nobody knows what the hell “strength” is. You will become strong at whatever you train at. Bodybuilders are “stronger” at using the Smith machine than powerlifers because that’s what they train with. Tell a PLer to do BB-style squats on a smith and watch him fall apart.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
That “only 5” larger" is like comparing a newbie to a seasoned weight lifter of ten years. How can you see the computer screen past your own bullshit?[/quote]

No, it isn’t.

The difference between a newbie and a seasoned lifter in chest size is more than 5 inches. I can easily dig up stats of pro bodybuilders to prove my point. They all have 50" chests, minimum. 47" isn’t particularly large. It isn’t significantly larger than a guy off the street. That’s a fact.

You are so hung up on berating everyone who is smaller than you that you ignore valid points.

Instead of comparing his measurements to my own I could have compared his measurements to some bodybuilder, who has a 55" chest and benches 200 lbs. less. The point would have been exactly the same. What can you post to refute the fact that a 47" chest isn’t very large for a guy who benches more than 98% of the male population?

Training for strength gives you size ?
Bullshit.

This guy is in the 99th percentile for bench press max.
He is in the 75th percentile for chest size.

Whether you like it or not, that says a lot about the correlation between heavy benching and chest hypertrophy (or lack thereof).