T Nation

Best Split?


#1

I know there is no perfect split, it's 90% effort and diet and that any training routine with some logic behind it ultimately works if given the chance. That aside my question is the following: I've done TBT and worked around a four and five day split but I would like to try a 2 day split now. I've considered upper/lower however I feel that this would involve too many movements on the upper day so I'd like to add a bodypart or two to the lower day. I've come up with the following and wanted to get feedback on which everyone though was better for strictly mass.

Day one: chest/back/shoulders
Day two: legs/arms

or...

Day one: chest back/arms
Day two: legs/shoulders

I know it's splitting hairs but I just was curious for feedback.

Thanks.


#2

Wayyyyy too many muscle groups to work them all in 2 days IMO. I would split it up to at least 4 days.

If you have the energy to work other muscles on your back and leg days, you aren’t working hard enough.


#3

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Wayyyyy too many muscle groups to work them all in 2 days IMO. I would split it up to at least 4 days.

If you have the energy to work other muscles on your back and leg days, you aren’t working hard enough.[/quote]

And what about Doggcrapp? That seems to work well for many people.

Day one: chest/back/shoulders
Day two: legs/arms

or…

Day one: chest back/arms
Day two: legs/shoulders

Try both, see how they work. The first split is popular (it is the DC split) but be careful to not overwork your lower back

Although, also consider

Day one; Chest shoulders tris
Day two: Legs, back, bis

Another popular split from Iron Addict ^^


#4

[quote]RossDB wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
Wayyyyy too many muscle groups to work them all in 2 days IMO. I would split it up to at least 4 days.

If you have the energy to work other muscles on your back and leg days, you aren’t working hard enough.

And what about Doggcrapp? That seems to work well for many people.

Day one: chest/back/shoulders
Day two: legs/arms

or…

Day one: chest back/arms
Day two: legs/shoulders

Try both, see how they work. The first split is popular (it is the DC split) but be careful to not overwork your lower back

Although, also consider

Day one; Chest shoulders tris
Day two: Legs, back, bis

Another popular split from Iron Addict ^^[/quote]

Geez everyone has a DC hard-on these days. The guys I know who do DC style are all big fellas, but they didn’t start out with it. They started using it once they were already big boys and it allowed them to continue progressing.

I have no problem with DC training, I was just giving my opinion.

For every big DC’er you can probably find 5 big guys who got that way with a normal bbing split.


#5

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:

For every big DC’er you can probably find 5 big guys who got that way with a normal bbing split.[/quote]

So in other words, both ways are proven to work, so what’s the harm in him trying a two way split? If it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work, at least he tried. Tons of people grow well off of lower volume work and can thus perform more exercises/work more muscles per workout. It doesn’t mean you’re not working hard enough, just that you’re doing less per muscle.

I mean, whether you’re doing 10, 16, 24 or 40 sets per workout, you’re doing the same amount of work no matter how many muscle groups you do it over. OK, it doesn’t quite work like that because you would generally either increase or decrease weight as exercises and the workout went on, but overall you’re still doing largely the same, you’re just splitting it up differently.


#6

Personally, if I were going to do a two-way split (gun to my head):

Back/biceps/thighs

Chest/shoulders/tris

OR

A regular westside template…


#7

[quote]mr popular wrote:
Personally, if I were going to do a two-way split (gun to my head):

Back/biceps/thighs

Chest/shoulders/tris
[/quote]

I have done that one and it’s a fun one, but it’s a bit uneven in terms of how much attention you give to each muscle. If you consider that your legs are equal roughly in muscle mass to your upper body, and your pushing muscles are roughly equal in muscle mass to your pulling muscles, you’re working 1/3 of your muscles on one day and 2/3 the next.


#8

Then for gods sake man just train normally lol

Your own recovery, time in the gym, experience level, and intensity will dictate your bodybuilding routine.

It doesn’t matter if you start with a 2 way split or a 5 way split, if you listen to your body it will tell you what it needs and how it grows the best. There is no need to trying everything ‘just cuz’.


#9

[quote]Squelchy wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:

For every big DC’er you can probably find 5 big guys who got that way with a normal bbing split.

So in other words, both ways are proven to work, so what’s the harm in him trying a two way split? If it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work, at least he tried. Tons of people grow well off of lower volume work and can thus perform more exercises/work more muscles per workout. It doesn’t mean you’re not working hard enough, just that you’re doing less per muscle.

I mean, whether you’re doing 10, 16, 24 or 40 sets per workout, you’re doing the same amount of work no matter how many muscle groups you do it over. OK, it doesn’t quite work like that because you would generally either increase or decrease weight as exercises and the workout went on, but overall you’re still doing largely the same, you’re just splitting it up differently.[/quote]

Sure he can try a 2 day split, I just think it’s weird for someone to go from TBT straight to something like DC. I see DC as more of the second step after the conventional splits. By all means though go for it, I don’t want to argue that point anymore.

And…your second paragraph makes no sense man. If I do 16 sets and it is all my back and you do 16 total sets for your back/biceps/whatever it is NOT the same amount of work. All of my fatigue and micro trauma is accumulated in one muscle group, yours is in three.


#10

[quote]mr popular wrote:

There is no need to trying everything ‘just cuz’. [/quote]

No, but it’s a smart idea to at least experiment with the main types of routine you can do because no matter what some people would have you believe, it DOES make a difference.

I’m sure everyone is in agreement that the most important things are to eat enough, rest enough and lift progressively heavier weights, but within those parameters are a variety of variables that do make a difference.

No matter what people say, lots of people WILL grow better with total body training than splits, and the reverse is also true. Lots of people will grow a lot better with low volume and the reverse is also true.

So it’s really a smart idea to at least get a basic all round idea of what you respond best to, at least in terms of volume, loading and body part training frequency.

Let me repeat again before anybody jumps on me for this, the most important things are obviously increasing the weight and resting/eating enough, but if you’re doing that then why wouldn’t you want to get the best possible results by finding out which sort of routine you would grow best from?


#11

[quote]mr popular wrote:
Personally, if I were going to do a two-way split (gun to my head):

Back/biceps/thighs [/quote] Uh-oh, doing back and thighs in the same workout… I tried, it seems to work for some, but to be honest… If I’m doing front squats after rows/pulldowns, then my upper back is fried and the front squats will be messed up etc… For example. Imo the standard DC way of splitting stuff up is better there… [quote]

Chest/shoulders/tris

OR

A regular westside template… [/quote]


#12

[quote]Squelchy wrote:

No matter what people say, lots of people WILL grow better with total body training than splits
[/quote]

cough Bullshit! cough


#13

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:

And…your second paragraph makes no sense man. If I do 16 sets and it is all my back and you do 16 total sets for your back/biceps/whatever it is NOT the same amount of work. All of my fatigue and micro trauma is accumulated in one muscle group, yours is in three.[/quote]

Sorry, I should’ve clarified, I meant over the course of a week or however long it takes you to train your whole body in its entirety.

For the sake of simplicity and ease, let’s say your leg workout is 24 sets of squats, your back/bicep workout is 24 sets of chins, and your chest/shoulder/tricep workout is 24 sets of bench (I know it’s a poor example but it saves me time having to think of different groupings).

You could do all 24 sets of the same exercise together on one day (i.e. Monday = back/bicep - 24 sets of chins) or you could do 8 sets squats, 8 sets chins, 8 sets bench, three times per week. Same rep ranges, same exercises, same total volume, simply arranged differently.

Hopefully that clarifies.


#14

[quote]Squelchy wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:

And…your second paragraph makes no sense man. If I do 16 sets and it is all my back and you do 16 total sets for your back/biceps/whatever it is NOT the same amount of work. All of my fatigue and micro trauma is accumulated in one muscle group, yours is in three.

Sorry, I should’ve clarified, I meant over the course of a week or however long it takes you to train your whole body in its entirety.

For the sake of simplicity and ease, let’s say your leg workout is 24 sets of squats, your back/bicep workout is 24 sets of chins, and your chest/shoulder/tricep workout is 24 sets of bench (I know it’s a poor example but it saves me time having to think of different groupings).

You could do all 24 sets of the same exercise together on one day (i.e. Monday = back/bicep - 24 sets of chins) or you could do 8 sets squats, 8 sets chins, 8 sets bench, three times per week. Same rep ranges, same exercises, same total volume, simply arranged differently.

Hopefully that clarifies.[/quote]

You people always manage to focus on all the details that would normally fall into place perfectly if only you’d focus on what’s actually important.


#15

Whatever happened to an upper/lower split? I like them.


#16

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

You people always manage to focus on all the details that would normally fall into place perfectly if only you’d focus on what’s actually important.
[/quote]

Did you miss these two paragraphs I posted?

"I’m sure everyone is in agreement that the most important things are to eat enough, rest enough and lift progressively heavier weights, but within those parameters are a variety of variables that do make a difference.

Let me repeat again before anybody jumps on me for this, the most important things are obviously increasing the weight and resting/eating enough, but if you’re doing that then why wouldn’t you want to get the best possible results by finding out which sort of routine you would grow best from?"

Or are you referring to something else that is “actually important”?


#17

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Squelchy wrote:

No matter what people say, lots of people WILL grow better with total body training than splits

cough Bullshit! cough[/quote]

LMAO, so you are saying that everybody is physically identical and never respond differently to different stimulation?

Seriously dude, you are mad if you think you can speak for everybody in the world. I will agree with you that for more or less all advanced trainees splits are the way to go, but if you seriously think all beginners and intermediates will always, always grow better on a split, then I am absolutely speechless. I’ve never seen such a ridiculous blanket statement before.


#18

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Squelchy wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:

And…your second paragraph makes no sense man. If I do 16 sets and it is all my back and you do 16 total sets for your back/biceps/whatever it is NOT the same amount of work. All of my fatigue and micro trauma is accumulated in one muscle group, yours is in three.

Sorry, I should’ve clarified, I meant over the course of a week or however long it takes you to train your whole body in its entirety.

For the sake of simplicity and ease, let’s say your leg workout is 24 sets of squats, your back/bicep workout is 24 sets of chins, and your chest/shoulder/tricep workout is 24 sets of bench (I know it’s a poor example but it saves me time having to think of different groupings).

You could do all 24 sets of the same exercise together on one day (i.e. Monday = back/bicep - 24 sets of chins) or you could do 8 sets squats, 8 sets chins, 8 sets bench, three times per week. Same rep ranges, same exercises, same total volume, simply arranged differently.

Hopefully that clarifies.

You people always manage to focus on all the details that would normally fall into place perfectly if only you’d focus on what’s actually important.

[/quote]

What do you mean, “YOU people” ??

LOL


#19

[quote]Squelchy wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
Squelchy wrote:

No matter what people say, lots of people WILL grow better with total body training than splits

cough Bullshit! cough

LMAO, so you are saying that everybody is physically identical and never respond differently to different stimulation?

Seriously dude, you are mad if you think you can speak for everybody in the world. I will agree with you that for more or less all advanced trainees splits are the way to go, but if you seriously think all beginners and intermediates will always, always grow better on a split, then I am absolutely speechless. I’ve never seen such a ridiculous blanket statement before.[/quote]

I can safely assume I speak for 99.9% of the competing bodybuilders in the world (even the I am not one of them) and say they train using body part splits. That goes for natties and assisted.


#20

[quote]Itchy wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Squelchy wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:

And…your second paragraph makes no sense man. If I do 16 sets and it is all my back and you do 16 total sets for your back/biceps/whatever it is NOT the same amount of work. All of my fatigue and micro trauma is accumulated in one muscle group, yours is in three.

Sorry, I should’ve clarified, I meant over the course of a week or however long it takes you to train your whole body in its entirety.

For the sake of simplicity and ease, let’s say your leg workout is 24 sets of squats, your back/bicep workout is 24 sets of chins, and your chest/shoulder/tricep workout is 24 sets of bench (I know it’s a poor example but it saves me time having to think of different groupings).

You could do all 24 sets of the same exercise together on one day (i.e. Monday = back/bicep - 24 sets of chins) or you could do 8 sets squats, 8 sets chins, 8 sets bench, three times per week. Same rep ranges, same exercises, same total volume, simply arranged differently.

Hopefully that clarifies.

You people always manage to focus on all the details that would normally fall into place perfectly if only you’d focus on what’s actually important.

What do you mean, “YOU people” ??

LOL

[/quote]

Most of the T-Nation population, really.
(not waylander of course, I forgot to delete his part in the quote)

Those I wasn’t talking about probably know anyway.