T Nation

Best Possible PCT


#1

As any of us who have spent more the 8 seconds on this part of the forum would know the most recommended PCT is the Nolva 40/40/20/20 (40mg ED first 2 weeks, 20mg ED last 2 weeks). Now, my question is what would be the best possible PCT? Obviously make note if any particular parts of the PCT are directly related to any AAS the cycle could contain.

I am just curious, most of the time the most recommended is based on the fact that its easier to get and hard to fuck up, not based on it having max effect.

Thanks


#2

IMO the most effective PCT will often be the one that is specific to the cycle.

Factors such as timing, hormone control and training are all going to be important IMO.


#3

20/20/10/10 just work as well. 40mg Nolvadex is overkill in my opinion. Also I respond better to Clomid anyway, 50mg ED.


#4

[quote] Brook wrote:
IMO the most effective PCT will often be the one that is specific to the cycle.

Factors such as timing, hormone control and training are all going to be important IMO.[/quote]

Fair Call. It was a very wide question. So Lets put some of T-Nations greatest AAS minds to work. :stuck_out_tongue:

I will just grab a few from around the forum.

3 Examples

  1. My new cycle starting soon.
    W 1-6 250mg Test enth E3D
    W 2-8 60mg Oxandrolone ED
    W 1-6 .25-.5mg Adex ED
    W 7-8 .125-.25 Adex ED

  2. Thanks to mFow for this one.
    W 1-10 Test Enth 250mg E3D
    W 1-8 Tren Enth 150mg E3D
    W 1-12 Arimidex 0.25mg EOD (reduce to 0.125mg EOD in last 2 weeks)

  3. Thanks to Westclock (had to make a lot up but the base of doses was from his post, hope its not totally retarded)
    W 1-10 1 gram Test EW
    W 1-10 300mg Deca EW
    W 1-3 50mg Dbol ED
    W 7-10 50mg Dbol ED
    W 1-10 1mg Adex ED (down to .75mg when not on Dbol)


#5

No, i don’t bloody think so! Hilarious effort tho!

Firstly - [quote]Now, my question is what would be the best possible PCT?[/quote] So giving 3 different cycles with the aim of getting three different PCT’s is kinda contradictory.

Secondly, the specifics i was thinking about are TOTALLY specific to each situation, not JUST the cycle. So the goals, the cycling protocol, the users cycle history and even their health and medical history in some cases. The point is, there is not ONE best PCT as the best PCT is individual according to the specifics of the situation. IMO.
There is never ONE rule.

Thirdly, if you just want to ask someone how you should approach PCT for your cycle - just ask, or was it puuure coincidence you have included the cycle you are about to start soon?

I think it is a bit sad that you feel you have to resort to this kind of manipulative ‘trick’ to get information from the site.

I was close to not giving an opinion at all as i could smell the motive for the post immediately - however if you are simply asking for help (as you should have done in the first place like a man) then IMO a SERM PCT will be sufficient for your cycle…

Generally speaking, you take drugs to level the hormones back to a level conductive to your personal homeostasis (for this reason it is an excellent idea to get bloods before you cycle). Not just because you are ‘supposed’ to use ‘x’ for PCT.

:wink:


#6

Based on your location, HCG may be a little difficult to procure. So I would suggest the following PCT
Week 9-12 Clomid 50mg ED + Nolvadex 20mg ED
Week 9-14 Original LONG®R³IGF-I (Media Grade) 50mcg 3X week


#7

It’s because everyone’s scared of you Brook, that’s why they dont want to ask :wink:


#8

[quote] Brook wrote:
No, i don’t bloody think so! Hilarious effort tho!

Firstly - Now, my question is what would be the best possible PCT? So giving 3 different cycles with the aim of getting three different PCT’s is kinda contradictory.

Secondly, the specifics i was thinking about are TOTALLY specific to each situation, not JUST the cycle. So the goals, the cycling protocol, the users cycle history and even their health and medical history in some cases. The point is, there is not ONE best PCT as the best PCT is individual according to the specifics of the situation. IMO.
There is never ONE rule.

Thirdly, if you just want to ask someone how you should approach PCT for your cycle - just ask, or was it puuure coincidence you have included the cycle you are about to start soon?

I think it is a bit sad that you feel you have to resort to this kind of manipulative ‘trick’ to get information from the site.

I was close to not giving an opinion at all as i could smell the motive for the post immediately - however if you are simply asking for help (as you should have done in the first place like a man) then IMO a SERM PCT will be sufficient for your cycle…

Generally speaking, you take drugs to level the hormones back to a level conductive to your personal homeostasis (for this reason it is an excellent idea to get bloods before you cycle). Not just because you are ‘supposed’ to use ‘x’ for PCT.

;)[/quote]

The reason I put the cycle I was going to do soon in here was because when I searched through the previous 15 pages on this part of the forum I had only found 2 cycles that people hadn’t said “you suck at life and everything in it” to and I thought that wouldn’t be enough to really fit enough of the field. So funnily enough, no, I have run Test and Var before and was fine with the SERM PCT. This was more like trying to create a reasource for other users.


#9

I think in some instances, Hormone Replacement Therapy is possibly the best PCT.


#10

[quote]mephistopheles wrote:
I think in some instances, Hormone Replacement Therapy is possibly the best PCT. [/quote]

and in reality if you do this long enough that is where you will end up. i am living it…there is no perfect PCT … with each cylce you will gradually reduce your ability to recover…if you stop early enough no big deal. but lets face it most of us won’t (i know i didn’t). Even the famed test taper thread by Prisoner…he himself will admit that he does not really come off anymore because the last time he tried it jsut didn’t work anymore. But in all honesty HRT is not a bad deal at all and even if i didn’t HAVE to be on it i probably would push for it, screw getting old.


#11

Brook, How would one go about finding out which serm would work best for them aside from just trying a few.


#12

[quote]morepain wrote:
mephistopheles wrote:
I think in some instances, Hormone Replacement Therapy is possibly the best PCT.

and in reality if you do this long enough that is where you will end up. i am living it…there is no perfect PCT … with each cylce you will gradually reduce your ability to recover…if you stop early enough no big deal. but lets face it most of us won’t (i know i didn’t). Even the famed test taper thread by Prisoner…he himself will admit that he does not really come off anymore because the last time he tried it jsut didn’t work anymore. But in all honesty HRT is not a bad deal at all and even if i didn’t HAVE to be on it i probably would push for it, screw getting old. [/quote]

I agree whole heartedly. Very wise my man.

It is something i was thinking about today actually - how it is never spoken about here but that recovery becomes harder and harder each time until the inevitable moment when you decide whether you make steroids a part of your life for good or not use them ever.

Of course - as with everything else - i am sure this isn’t the case for all (BR comes to mind although his success in cycling is partially due to the fact he has forgotten more about AAS most will know in a lifetime).

But generally there comes a time when one needs to weigh up the pro’s and con’s… (as with all chronic overdosed drug usage IME)

JMO

JJ


#13

[quote]horsepuss wrote:
Brook, How would one go about finding out which serm would work best for them aside from just trying a few.[/quote]

I can’t think of a way… there really is little in them.

Just read up on common side effects and choose the one that has the least or most acceptable ones! :wink:


#14

[quote]mephistopheles wrote:
Based on your location, HCG may be a little difficult to procure. So I would suggest the following PCT
Week 9-12 Clomid 50mg ED + Nolvadex 20mg ED
Week 9-14 Original LONG�®R�³IGF-I (Media Grade) 50mcg 3X week
[/quote]

Meph,
What is the rationale behind IGF-1 use during PCT and specifically six week usage?


#15

Brook,

I wold be grateful for your thoughts - if you were running the following;

3 weeks at 300mg/week prop and 50mg/day Winst. Plus suitable estrogen control

2 weeks off AS, but continue with suitable dose Nolva/clomid

Repeat original 3 week cycle

Take a break of 8-12 weeks before next cycle

Would it be worthwhile running 2 weeks of nova or clomid prior to the start of the first steroid block each time in an attempt to maximize testicular/hpta function? Would entering the cycle with increased T/LH secretion help avoid shutdown/improve restart in each case? Is there any point in Pre Cycle Therapy or is it not even worth considering? Your opinions would be greatly valued


#16

I am not sure what you mean exactly, but if you are asking if it would be a good idea to use a SERM in the 2 weeks between cycles, then yes.

As for using a SERM before the cycles even begin… I am not sure - good idea though.

I can not see a reason why optimizing T beforehand would minimize suppression or maximise recovery - but it is certainly an effective way to maximise your own endocrine system through less ‘invasive’ means than AAS.

By optimizing T - i am thinking of using low dose AI to manage E and increase T, rather than a SERM.

(It wouldn’t hurt though AFAIK)


#17

The igf-1 would minimise muscular atrophy during PCT, it doen’t help the recovery of HPTA, but you will hold on to your gains a bit better.

Generally IGF-1 will start to lose it’s effect past 4 weeks of continuous usage, by using EOD/3x week protocol, we hope to minimise antibody build up and stretch the effective cycle length to 6 week. Also, LR3 variant have a longer active period in the body, so EOD injection is sufficient. Altought the PCT will be finished in 4 weeks, it doens’t mean that the body is fully recovered, so every bit of anabolic assitance helps.

Also, if you can’t get real IGF-1LR3, then don’t use it. A lot of the generic IGF/MGF on the market is totally useless. Regular IGF-1 is cost prohibitive to use.
Real IGF-1LR3 are manufactured in Australia by Gropep/NovoEnzyme. The chinese stuff is a bit of hit and miss.


#18

[quote]mephistopheles wrote:
The igf-1 would minimise muscular atrophy during PCT, it doen’t help the recovery of HPTA, but you will hold on to your gains a bit better.
Generally IGF-1 will start to lose it’s effect past 4 weeks of continuous usage, by using EOD/3x week protocol, we hope to minimise antibody build up and stretch the effective cycle length to 6 week. Also, LR3 variant have a longer active period in the body, so EOD injection is sufficient. Altought the PCT will be finished in 4 weeks, it doens’t mean that the body is fully recovered, so every bit of anabolic assitance helps.

Also, if you can’t get real IGF-1LR3, then don’t use it. A lot of the generic IGF/MGF on the market is totally useless. Regular IGF-1 is cost prohibitive to use.
Real IGF-1LR3 are manufactured in Australia by Gropep/NovoEnzyme. The chinese stuff is a bit of hit and miss. [/quote]

The reasons that IGF’s results reduce after a certain time are not fully understood AFAIK, but of the factors that do have a role - i have not heard of any ‘antibodies’, what do you mean?
I was under the impression it was likely due to a few factors, with inhibition, satellite cells and possibly IGFBP all playing a role.

Also - the addition of the LR3 was to increase its activity in the body (time), but it didn’t pan out that simply… I mean - Yes, on the one hand it isn’t attaching to the first receptor it meets on injection, but as it cannot be bound by IGFBP, nor is it attaching to a receptor - it is also not having any activity at all until it is freed of the attached protein (i assume LR3 is some peptide based thang).
So the active life is not increased, more delayed.

If it had a pharmacokinetic profile like any regular drug, then it could be dosed accordingly - as we do for Propionate or Enanthate (and most drugs actually)… but it doesn’t really have an effect like that AFAIK, not quite.
May be wrong of course.

This delay IME tends to mean that whether it is used SC or IM it doesn’t matter, the results are more systemic than when ‘base’ IGF-1 is used. It DOES manage to leave the injected muscle and survive in the blood, without binding to the IGFBP.
This makes it free to attach to a receptor ‘later on’… (scientific aren’t i?)

Unlike the original peptide, the LR3 can be injected just once a day and show great results, and it does not have to be bi-laterally nor does it need to be site specific (lagging groups - although IMO it doesn’t hurt and can only help).

The point is, the LR3 addition is NOT like an ester, where it simply delays the release of the drug and therefore increases it’s DURATION of action.

These are just observations of my experience with the drug and of the writings i have read on it - both of scientific studies and personal accounts

AFAIK/IMO - all that polite shit.


#19

increase in antibody is basically a lot of binding protein get released, so exo IGF become pretty much useless.

That was a long reply brook, but i didn’t quite catch your point…
You need an abstract, main body and conclusion. lol

The regular IGF-1 get pretty much destroyed as soon as you inject it, which is why you need milligrams of the stuff, rather than micrograms. It only get to work around the injection site (just speculating), i think that’s one the primary reason that it supposed to provide site enhancement. Because it doesn’t remain active long enough to excert strong systemic action. I think LR3 is definitely a very good research product (for real reaseach), it is cost effective compared to regular IGF-1.

On the other hand LR3 variant can excert strong systemic action. i.e bind strongly to the receptors in your small intestine. I have heard on several occasions that high level teams (goverment funded) uses regular IGF-1 exclusively, to avoid the gut issue. Altought most of them had phased out IGF-1 by now and moved on to newer peptides, or transgenic shit. I never get to know the cutting edge new “news”.

IGF-1 is still too new (for us anyway), still not widely used in the healthcare sector. Still very hard to get high quality igf1. so I’d stick to tried and true HGH for now, for fucking 20 USD per IU. Man, i need to make some more money.


#20

[quote] Brook wrote:
I am not sure what you mean exactly, but if you are asking if it would be a good idea to use a SERM in the 2 weeks between cycles, then yes.

As for using a SERM before the cycles even begin… I am not sure - good idea though.

I can not see a reason why optimizing T beforehand would minimize suppression or maximise recovery - but it is certainly an effective way to maximise your own endocrine system through less ‘invasive’ means than AAS.

By optimizing T - i am thinking of using low dose AI to manage E and increase T, rather than a SERM.

(It wouldn’t hurt though AFAIK)[/quote]

The thought was to use the SERM prior to cycle. Simply because I thought it may improve T/LH through the same mode as it does during PCT. I am keen that I utilize every possible weapon to ensure that start up is as easy as it possibly can be. The last cycle was the first occasion I have ever had any problem or even noticed recovery was not occurring (in the past I have slipped seamlessly from cycle to normal life). Five weeks later all is not quite right, it was but seems to have slipped back. I can only assume recovery is not a linear process but your endocrine recovery can be transient with an overall trend for improvement?

I will take your advice and try ADEX - I have not used this previously, I will do 2 weeks prior to cycle. I do have some letro, but I am loathe to use this - the last cycle was the first occasion I used this and it killed me (fool at 2.5mg/day for a week). I am not completely convinced that my problems lay with letro and not the AS cycle, time will tell.

Thank you