T Nation

Best Nutrient Timing for Fat Loss?

After posting and reading a bunch I have decided to scrap the crappy crash diet plan and do something a little more long term.

For training I shall be doing Defranco’s “Built Like a Badass”… 3 lifting sessions (2 up, 2 lower) a week with metabolic finishers after. To increase acivity levels with regards to training I will up mobility/stretching, NEPA walks and perhaps some light parkour work.

I will be training in the evening.

What would be the better option for my nutrient timing?

  1. P+C for breakfast and PWO shake, P+F before bed and rest of time.
  2. P+C for PWO shake and meal 90 mins later (before bed), P+F rest of time.

Option 1 opens up several possibilities of progression as fat loss might stall:

  • Recalculating for new weight
  • Removing P+C breakfast on non training day
  • Removing P+C breakfast on training day
  • Swapping PWO P+C shake for low carb workout nutrition

With option 2:

  • Recalculating for new weight
  • Removing P+C after the PWO shake.
  • Swapping PWO P+C shake for low carb workout nutrition

So option 1 or option 2?

Would just like to add: 1. is closer to defrancos recommendations, 2. is closer to Berardi’s reccomendations.

Man, you’re over thinking this. Unless you’re in contest prep, you don’t need to push around the minutiae. I’ve been doing a little recomp myself the past 6 weeks, and it’s very simple and very effective.

Granted, at this point I basically know the macro breakdown of everything I eat so it’s second nature to eat the right number of grams of whatever. Here’s what I’ve been doing, and it got me back down to 10% and I’ve yet to stall. In fact, the few holiday season blunders have had no impact at all - they may have even helped.

Here’s what I’ve been doing:

Training: 5/3/1 and some inclined walking on the treadmill (30-40 mins at 3.7 mph and 10 grade, 2-3 times a week on off days)

Nutrition: 5 meals a day of about 40g protein, 15-20g fat, and veggies at will. Pre workout I drink 25g whey + a scoop of BCAA powder, same post-workout. Every 5th or 6th day I’ll carb up with about 500g carbs, 200g protein, and trace fats. In reality I occasionally eat a piece of fruit or have some carbs with dinner, so my kcals are likely higher than this, but the point is you shouldn’t be worrying about which timing for carbs is better until you get to a point where you’re so lean you have to micro-manage for that next level leanness.

Haven’t lost any strength and I feel good. Make sure you drink enough water too, and sleep as much as possible.

Ignore this.

I was going to give this approach a trial however I have decided to try and develop some strong nutritional habits… I have always lacked consistency.

Which of the two approaches would be ideally?

Or is there an even better option for those wanting to train in the evening and drop fat?

What works better for me may not be best for you, so why don’t you experiment with both options yourself to see whether there’s a difference?

Will do - However I was just wondering what the general consensus is for a high carb meal before bed when trying to drop body fat after an evening training session and a P+C PWO shake? Is one of these approaches fundamentally wrong for this goal?

I suggest the P+C breakfast and P+C drink 30 minutes before your workout. The rest of your meals you really only NEED protein and EFAs. I’ve been doing a recomp as well and have left the ground beef, beans, and steak in my diet…which is AWESOME. I’ll still eat fruit and veggies post-WO as well.

For a cut you really only need to watch your CALORIES (drilling this point in again)!

[quote]phatkins187 wrote:
I suggest the P+C breakfast and P+C drink 30 minutes before your workout. The rest of your meals you really only NEED protein and EFAs. I’ve been doing a recomp as well and have left the ground beef, beans, and steak in my diet…which is AWESOME. I’ll still eat fruit and veggies post-WO as well.

For a cut you really only need to watch your CALORIES (drilling this point in again)![/quote]

Don’t worry I’ll be keeping a close eye on my intake.

Perhaps something like the following?

P+F
P+F
P+F
P+C
training
P+C PWO Shake
P+F
bed

A P+C after the PWO shake is not all that important?

[quote]benmoore wrote:

A P+C after the PWO shake is not all that important?[/quote]

IMO, False.

[quote]dyeguy1212 wrote:

[quote]benmoore wrote:

A P+C after the PWO shake is not all that important?[/quote]

IMO, False.
[/quote]

Oh wonderful contradictions.

Would a P+C be needed after the P+C shake on a training day when the training session is in the evening?

I dont think it matters much, as long as you reach your macros for the day.

[quote]bad bowtie wrote:
I dont think it matters much, as long as you reach your macros for the day.

[/quote]

I wasn’t going to really count my macros that much other then my protein intake. Instead I was going to look at calorific intake and P+F/P+C meals.

Hence my confusion.

As I previously mentioned, there are no black-and-white answers when it comes to this stuff.

The best thing you can do is experiment to see what works best for YOU.

Fair play - I was just wondering if there is anything fundamentally wrong I am doing.

Since there are two schools of thought, as you point out, then there is no consensus. Personally I would not eat the carbs after you workout and would stick to a carb cutoff. I’d do carb cycling and then switch to keto for a month or two if I had a specific date/contest I was getting ready for. If there is no contest or date in which you have to get ready for, then there is no hurry (if you’re not above 18-20% fat) and I would stick with carb cycling.

If you are above 18% or so I would stick with a keto diet until you get below that point and at that point you could slowly add back carbs [of course adjusting your fat grams, and even your protein a little]…(people have recomended things such as Week 1 add 50 grams carbs pre-workout (don’t cut protein from this meal), week 2 add another 50 grams in the morning, week 3 and forward is up to you where you want to put the carbs and it would be a good time to begin carb cycling as well).

[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
Since there are two schools of thought, as you point out, then there is no consensus. Personally I would not eat the carbs after you workout and would stick to a carb cutoff. I’d do carb cycling and then switch to keto for a month or two if I had a specific date/contest I was getting ready for. If there is no contest or date in which you have to get ready for, then there is no hurry (if you’re not above 18-20% fat) and I would stick with carb cycling.

If you are above 18% or so I would stick with a keto diet until you get below that point and at that point you could slowly add back carbs [of course adjusting your fat grams, and even your protein a little]…(people have recomended things such as Week 1 add 50 grams carbs pre-workout (don’t cut protein from this meal), week 2 add another 50 grams in the morning, week 3 and forward is up to you where you want to put the carbs and it would be a good time to begin carb cycling as well).[/quote]

I’m up at a high 22% bodyfat (up from 9% about 16 months back). As a result I won’t be doing carb cycling.

With the training Ill be doing though - intense lifting 3x a week along with metabolic finishers… walking/mobility drills on off days. Would keto be the right way to go?

[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
Since there are two schools of thought, as you point out, then there is no consensus. Personally I would not eat the carbs after you workout and would stick to a carb cutoff. I’d do carb cycling and then switch to keto for a month or two if I had a specific date/contest I was getting ready for. If there is no contest or date in which you have to get ready for, then there is no hurry (if you’re not above 18-20% fat) and I would stick with carb cycling.

If you are above 18% or so I would stick with a keto diet until you get below that point and at that point you could slowly add back carbs [of course adjusting your fat grams, and even your protein a little]…(people have recomended things such as Week 1 add 50 grams carbs pre-workout (don’t cut protein from this meal), week 2 add another 50 grams in the morning, week 3 and forward is up to you where you want to put the carbs and it would be a good time to begin carb cycling as well).[/quote]

I’m up at a high 22% bodyfat (up from 9% about 16 months back). As a result I won’t be doing carb cycling.

With the training Ill be doing though - intense lifting 3x a week along with metabolic finishers… walking/mobility drills on off days. Would keto be the right way to go?

[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
Since there are two schools of thought, as you point out, then there is no consensus. Personally I would not eat the carbs after you workout and would stick to a carb cutoff. I’d do carb cycling and then switch to keto for a month or two if I had a specific date/contest I was getting ready for. If there is no contest or date in which you have to get ready for, then there is no hurry (if you’re not above 18-20% fat) and I would stick with carb cycling.

If you are above 18% or so I would stick with a keto diet until you get below that point and at that point you could slowly add back carbs [of course adjusting your fat grams, and even your protein a little]…(people have recomended things such as Week 1 add 50 grams carbs pre-workout (don’t cut protein from this meal), week 2 add another 50 grams in the morning, week 3 and forward is up to you where you want to put the carbs and it would be a good time to begin carb cycling as well).[/quote]

I’m up at a high 22% bodyfat (up from 9% about 16 months back). As a result I won’t be doing carb cycling.

With the training Ill be doing though - intense lifting 3x a week along with metabolic finishers… walking/mobility drills on off days. Would keto be the right way to go?

[quote]benmoore wrote:

[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
Since there are two schools of thought, as you point out, then there is no consensus. Personally I would not eat the carbs after you workout and would stick to a carb cutoff. I’d do carb cycling and then switch to keto for a month or two if I had a specific date/contest I was getting ready for. If there is no contest or date in which you have to get ready for, then there is no hurry (if you’re not above 18-20% fat) and I would stick with carb cycling.

If you are above 18% or so I would stick with a keto diet until you get below that point and at that point you could slowly add back carbs [of course adjusting your fat grams, and even your protein a little]…(people have recomended things such as Week 1 add 50 grams carbs pre-workout (don’t cut protein from this meal), week 2 add another 50 grams in the morning, week 3 and forward is up to you where you want to put the carbs and it would be a good time to begin carb cycling as well).[/quote]

I’m up at a high 22% bodyfat (up from 9% about 16 months back). As a result I won’t be doing carb cycling.

With the training Ill be doing though - intense lifting 3x a week along with metabolic finishers… walking/mobility drills on off days. Would keto be the right way to go?[/quote]

IMO, at your BF%, yes. Do it until you get closer to 15%. LIke I said, if you don’t have a deadline on your weight loss, once you get around the mid-teens, carb cycle using 1 high and 2 mid days per week until you get to 11-12%, then do a traditional carb cycle.

I’d post your question up in CT’s thread to get his take on it, but my inclination would be you’d be much better off doing a keto diet at this point, but that’s if and only if, you split the training sessions so that you separate the cardio/metabolic finishers from the lifting. IMO, you simply don’t need carbs if sessions are short, but if you are deep into a diet and you are doing ~60 minute sessions with low cals and low carbs, you will probably run into a brick wall.

I would personally try to hit each body part 2-3 times per week with low volume per muscle group per session to keep the workout time down, but with low intensity per muscle group using a ramping to your max force point (refer to CT’s current stuff if you are confused by the terminology).

Call me crazy but here’s what I suggest to you. A sample workout and diet would look like this (I realize it’s a bit difficult schedule-wise but it gets the idea across, and I’m going to try something very similar starting in a week):

Keto Diet throughout. I won’t get too much into the supplementation at this time, but of course Anaconda and or other Biotest supplements are a good choice. Shoot for some Anaconda before your metabolic session(s) and before your lifting session as well if you can afford it. Personally I wouldn’t try what I’m about to recommend without Anaconda.

Day 1:

AM - Upper Body Horizontal Push: Bench Press - ramp using sets of 3 (dominate the weight) slowly adding weight each set and stop your sets when you reach to your max force point (say it’s 225 pounds) and follow up with 5X5 with 80-88% of your MFP set

Noon - HIIT Cardio or Circuit lasting 20 minutes (get in and get out, but get in there and do it hard!)

PM - Upper Body Vertical Push: Standing Shoulder Press (performed in the same way as the AM session)

Day 2:

AM - Upper Body Horizontal Pull: Row Variation (same as above)

Noon - 30 minute NEPA in the sun if possible :smiley:

PM - Upper Body Vertical Pull: Pull Up/Down Variation (same as above)

Day 3:

AM - Lower Body Machine-Centric Glute/Ham Workout

Noon - Sprinting session. Each sprint should last LESS than ~15-20 seconds (do a bunch of 40s, 50s, and 100s and do them on a track!) resting long enough to fully recover. Time yourself making sure speed does not decrease. Rest should be 60 seconds. Do this for 20 minutes. Cover more distance in the next workout and do at least 1 more 100 than the previous workout

PM - Beach muscle session, or any muscles you feel you negelected (if you are up for it)

Day 4: Rest

Day 5: repeat

That looks WONDERFUL… but its REALLY going to put stress on my studies. I have picked the defranco program because it has a 3 day split for guys with tight schedules… normally I would MAKE the time but ultimately I am at uni to study and I am definitely not near the top of class at the moment!

What would you do if metabolic+lifting are together?

EDIT:

And Anaconda is WAY out of my budget at present. Due to the intensity of my studies (physics seems to eat up my hours) I’m struggling to find a suitable job as it is.

At my disposal I have:

P+C recovery shake with BCAA’s + creatine (I want Surge but can’t afford at the moment)
Whey concentrate
Creatine
Fish oils
Whey + Casien blend (No Metabolic Drive but best i can do at the moment… and this stuff tastes like ass!)