Best Insulin Protocol?

[quote]Rusty Barbell wrote:
I have issues here…

retailboy (some other guy? BigKiwi?) wrote:
Inducing hypoglycemia by taking insulin is more complex. Hypoglycemia will deplete the body�??s glycogen stores as the body breaks down the glycogen in an effort to mobilize glucose and return blood glucose to normal. This depletion leads to decreased performance in the gym, which leads to decreased stimulation of muscle growth. I’m also a powerlifter. I’m an insulin dependant diabetic–and have been for over 20 years and I’m a doctor in a very, very specialized field of medicine. Having stable blood glucose levels the week prior to a meet is the single most important thing I have to deal with as diabetic. One episode of severe hypoglycemia will significantly affect my max lifts (ie what I’d do at the meet) for up to 3 days. So don’t take a “little low blood sugar” lightly. It�??s not just a “shaky weak feeling”.

I disagree with the assertion that stable blood glucose levels for an entire week or one severe hypo episode will significantly affect the performances of a type 1 diabetic for up to 3 days. As long as I am not taken to the hospital, the worst I can possibly experience from insulin-induced hypoglycemia is a headache that lasts a few hours after the episode as my body renormalizes itself. A 3 day effect for anything outside of going into a coma is not accurate and overstated.

Also the type 1 diabetic has not only defective insulin production, but also has defective counter-regulatory responses (glucagon, epinephrine, cortisol) to hypoglycemia and he technically should not be using himself as an example for situations to deter healthy persons from taking exogenous insulin; their body acts in vastly different manners with respect to glucose homeostasis and their response to insulin is not the same.

I also mentioned the “shaky weak” feeling several times in this post. What�??s that? It�??s a direct result of secretion of epinephrine due to low blood glucose. Remember, the body�??s goal is homeostasis. It�??s going to secrete glucagon and epinephrine in response the injected insulin as the blood glucose drops. You have to take enough insulin to overcome this homeostatic mechanism which is where things get very, very dangerous.

No the “shakes” are a direct result of low brain glucose levels. Why would epinephrine release cause you to feel “shaky and weak” if epinephrine release is supposed to be a part of the “return to normoglycemia (ie, feeling normal again because your glucose is back above 60-70 mg/dL)?”

And who said you need to take insulin use to this point to get positive growth effects anyways? Where is the evidence?

I agree that it is extremely dangerous, but we need to be properly informed and most importantly UNBIASED in our opinions before we think we can write about why the dangerous nature of insulin use and what it does is enough to deter a person without diabetes to never take it…[/quote]

True the low brain glucose levels would be there symptom but in addition the falling glucose would trigger counterregulatory hormones ie. epinephrine or adrenaline. Which would give us the tremors. And that’s where the shakes are coming from.

From what I’ve been taught neuroglycopenic sides are more like: modiness, mis judgment, weakness.

I agree using himself was bad example…

Agree as you and bushy pointed out, getting results on low dosing is ideal - away from sides he mentioned and still get the results. Also about the unbiasedness.

Not sure if this would be helpful but going to throw out some protocols for insulin that I’ve seen people use that are a little different - just to show what goes through peoples heads:

Example1:
4 weeks on 2 weeks off
8iu 1.5 hours preworkout with solid meal
carb drink on way to gym
8iu post workout

Example2:
2iu’s before each meal (except the last one before bed)

Example3:
Post morning cardio
post workout

Example4:
Post workout
Carbs

That’s all I have actually had people tell me or seen them taking… some I didn’t include what nutrition or doses because they didn’t happen to mention it, but I think it is self explanatory - we can at least guess since they are still breathing.

Finally, don’t mind me fellers, I’m just sitting back and soakin it up.

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
JJ wrote:
Bushy et al, i have obviously read quite a lot about PWO slin usage of no more than 10i.u, and with 10-15g simple carbs per i.u.

This is the “original” protocol i believe.

But while i know this is beneficial as it increases the ‘window of opportunity’ for 3-6 hours rather than 15mins(!), i am inclined to think that if one was to do the dose at some other time of the day, then you would get 2 insulin surges, and 2 “windows” no?

The thing is, if it is used in the morning, is it safe to train 3-4-5 hours later…? As long as you are keeping well carbed up, sipping a CHO/BCAA mixture during workout too…?

I have a few questions… i hope this is ok…?

It is often taken on workout days only, why is this?
It is the fact that slin use when the muscles arent fatigued, will not lead to hypertrophy, but adipose deposit?
But what about the fact that recovery and hypertrophy is done on the off/rest days, wouldnt it be productive to dose every day a week, or will that lead to sure-fire diabetes?

I know that you are a fan of using more complex carbs with slin BBB, does this tend to lead to less fat deposit for you?
I was wondering about this - with the slin in your system, then does it matter what the carb is as there is a massive insulin spike anyway and the CHO will only end up as glucose anyway… so why do you prefer the complex BBB?

For the correct dose, it is advised that 1i.u is used each day to a comfortable dose (how would you know? sleepiness?!) or a max of 1i.u per 20lbs LBM.
At the beginning of this thread, it was suggested that this protocol is not the best for maximizing the effects, and for lessening the chances of increased insulin resistance - can this please be expanded on?
As far as i understand, i get that due to the natural spike with some glucose PWO - while the muscles are gagging for it - you would be getting a higher amount of insulin in your body, thus potentially increasing resistance, but couldnt the regular administration of Metformin combat this resistance?

ALSO (sorry), with the benefit of PWO use being the maximised window - when the muscles are naturally screaming out for it too - then why isnt this the best use of it? Is that due to the point i questioned/mentioned earlier about there being 2 anabolic spikes when not dosed PWO?

Please forgive all these questions, i think they are relevant to this thread, i am not at a level with slin where i could design or use a protocol, but i am looking into it out of interest.
I have quite a number of articles on the subject that i am currently studying, some threads too… but i havent come across the answers to these questions that have occured recently.

JJ

Christ, you don’t want to know much do you, lol!

OK you get insulin resistance when you expose yourself to high peaks of insulin.

Guess what causes the highest peaks? Triggering your own endo insulin by consuming simple carbs then adding in a shot of exo insulin on top.

That’s why low GI carbs are better IMO. One of the reasons, anyway. Glucose is not very nice stuff actually, and the less exposure to it you have, the better off you are.

Different insulins have different active life spans. As long as you train after that has elapsed, you are (or should be) fine.

I use novorapid, which is the fastest trhere is. It feels SO natural it’s untrue. I suspecdt in me, the active life is only about 1.5 hours and it kicks in within 5-10 minutes. So I need to be on the ball when using it, that’s for sure.

You only use insulin when you are in a glycogen depleted state. Otherwise yes, you will ‘spill over’ into fat storage and generation.

Most people shouldn’t need exo insulin PWO because as you say, the muscles are ‘screaming’ for nutrients. All the natural tools are there - use them. I only use insulin in the mornings following a brutal training session because it sets me up in an anabolic framework (seemingly) for the rest of the day.

I suspect that I naturally have a poor secretory ability when it comes to insulin, because even 6iu and I see massive benefits.

Incidentally, I never go over 6iu. For me, this is the limit. Any higher and I tend towards resistance.

More questions, lol?

Bushy[/quote]

I ALWAYS have more questions my bushido practicing friend! Always! :wink:

SOoo… IF the carbs injested directly after using EXO insulin are simple this will cause a natural spike EVEN if there are supra-physiological levels in the system? Not just if the slin is injected AFTER the natural spike given from a PWO drink…?

You say that you use it in the morning (which makes sense to me as you have a whole day to metabolise it) but this is after an exerting workout… well isnt that just PWO too then?
Is the diference that you are not spiking your own levels by using oats at that time (i eat oats, water, w/ protein and powdered supps multiple times a day and is my fav CHO source - handy huh?!)? Do you then train twice a day? Can you see where i am coming from - IF you choose to use it in the morning and not with a sugary PWO drink, then couldnt you use it PWO in the afternoon (when i train coincidentally) as long as you used a more complex source of aminos and CHO?

Also…! You say that the best way to keep slin from exerting its fatty acid mobilisation ‘blocking’ actions (i do understand a reasonable amount about endogenous insulin) is to use it only PWO. That is fine… but doesnt that mean that you HAVE to consume it PWO for that reason, or would some specialised glycogen depleting HIIT and Med Intensity weights be great on ‘off’ days, or even - should/could your training lean towards this kind of exercise when utilising slin?

You are a star.

JJ

whoally shit bro…that’s a serious fuckup in the math…I would have been dialing 911 the second I realized what I’d done…that’s some scary shit.

any newbies reading this and thinking of taking insulin please take note of this post. This sort of thing is pretty easy to do and very easily could have resulted in death. take this stuff very seriously.

[quote]mbaina wrote:
Alright fellas… Alittle confessional here. Ive never mentioned this before due to, well, embarassment. But take it for what its worth, everybody makes mistakes.

The first time I did insulin I was around 24 years old. I had already been competing for three years and had experience with GH. One my friends had started experimenting with slin and I decided to give it a try. I was gonna run 8ius am, and 8ius pwo. For some reason, everyone I spoke with advised to go 10g of sugar per iu of slin (mistake #1). Alright, so here I go, I’m all ready and excited, its my first morning. The problem was, I had been using gh (6mg serano) which has 18ius/bottle. I would dilute it with 180ius of BS water to make it easier to dose (maybe you can see where this is headed). So, I load up the insulin pin (U-100).

Without thinking, I load up 80ius of humilin-R. Yeah that’s 8 0. Boom, it goes in. So I’m standing there looking at the syringe and oh shit, what did I do?! Now, I’m 24, thinking I know everything, no medical insurance and pretty ignorant. To make a reallt long story just long, every two hours on the nose I would start going hypo and have to take in some sugar. This went on for about 12-15 hours. The next day I was fine, but scared shitless and didn’t use slin again for somw time.

Obviously since that very very stupid mistake I get regular checkups and everything is fine. My docs throughout the years have been fully briefed on everything and I am 100% healthy… And very very very lucky.

-M[/quote]

Ya… slin dosages are minute in volume when you think that it is often 100iu/ml and doses start at 1iu… thats 0.01ml!

Just ripped and threw out the pages of: Endocrine System: Kidneys in my text books, it is all parenthetical :slight_smile:

I have been looking into a few different protocols, and some are very low carb.

While i know this is done, and possible it doesnt interent me.

I do NOT however, want to get fat… and slin can make you very very fat.

Once one is accustomed to it you can beging to experiment slowly and carefully with utmost caution and care…

I found this protocol, which i would be comfortable using myself - what do you guys who use think?

2-bodybuilding.com/board/showthread.php?t=369

JJ

Another thing about the nutrient side of dosing… Let me outline the intake of nutrients following a PWO shot - and correct me please!

-PWO slin.

-Then drink immediatley with Humalog and within the first 20mins max. This should contain some carbs from 10-15g/iu and aminos, even upto 10g/iu of whey would be great no?

-About an hour later, have a good meal, with some starchy carbs and lean proteins, still no fat as this will only be stored (as it does in the presence of any insulin).

Here is where it gets vague EVERYWHERE… by this time we are 1.5 hours into our Humalog ‘trip’ and do we begin to eat normally now, as the peak is past?

Plus, if i used… after some settling down/comfort period i would slowly reduce carbs/increase slin to get a balance where the carbs are just enough to off-set hypo but not enough to store in Adipose.

I believe it is a very good idea to invest in a BS tester, then you can safely push the carb level down while knowing exactly where your blood sugar level is (and what it should be obv.)

I know over the 3 posts it is alot… sorry. But i think we will all learn from this bar those who are doing the answering!

JJ

I am liking the discussion so far fellas, good work.

Bushy - Is this novorapid insulin you are using a newer type of insulin. I have easy access to humalog but havn’t found the previously mentioned in any of my pharmas. I won’t be using again until this winter so maybe it will just take some time to hit the main market.

To all - If insulin use were to be kept to 3 days per week and metformin was to be used on off days does anyone forsee a problem with a 12 week duration of use? I can run the metformin at either 425 or 850mg/day. I am unsure if doubling the dose would yield a greater benefit or not.

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
JJ wrote:
Another thing about the nutrient side of dosing… Let me outline the intake of nutrients following a PWO shot - and correct me please!

-PWO slin.

-Then drink immediatley with Humalog and within the first 20mins max. This should contain some carbs from 10-15g/iu and aminos, even upto 10g/iu of whey would be great no?

-About an hour later, have a good meal, with some starchy carbs and lean proteins, still no fat as this will only be stored (as it does in the presence of any insulin).

Here is where it gets vague EVERYWHERE… by this time we are 1.5 hours into our Humalog ‘trip’ and do we begin to eat normally now, as the peak is past?

Plus, if i used… after some settling down/comfort period i would slowly reduce carbs/increase slin to get a balance where the carbs are just enough to off-set hypo but not enough to store in Adipose.

I believe it is a very good idea to invest in a BS tester, then you can safely push the carb level down while knowing exactly where your blood sugar level is (and what it should be obv.)

I know over the 3 posts it is alot… sorry. But i think we will all learn from this bar those who are doing the answering!

JJ

This is what I would call an ‘old school’ protocol. It is basically telling you to drink sugar and whey is it not?

If so, then why bother with insulin, since it is unneeded in the presence of endo insulin which would arise from the sugar intake anyway.

Bushy[/quote]

BUT the protocol in itself, not the carbs source - that is interchangeable, but the actual protocol, is that sound?

And for the nutrition… Aminos, whey, supplements and what carb source for the gym would be the best? Is something like maltodex better - that is still a simple/complex carb IMO…

JJ

hehe! “Its okayyy… but listen to mine again…”

so i have questions about yours - alot of questions, shall i PM you or do them here?
They are in 2-3 posts above, but i can condense them a little for ease…? :smiley:

J

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Well no, cos then the whole thing needs to be rewritten. Also, I don’t like malto, because it is still a refined carb.

Bushy[/quote]

Are you still sticking to your oats and applejuice mixture? I tried this for a while but couldn’t get over the texture, kinda cold and soggy. Maybe I did something incorrect, but do you have a close second that is still beter than malto?

I have question now too! I remeber BBB telling me about the oats n’ aj before, but how much? How many gms of carbs per iu of slin? Is it still 10?

Bump