T Nation

Best Insulin Protocol?

Let me start this thread off with a disclaimer: INSULIN USE IS TO BE TAKEN VERY SERIOUSLY, IMPROPER USE AND/OR POOR NUTRITIONAL INTAKE CAN CAUSE COMA OR DEATH.

For many years the standard insulin protocol consisted of PWO injections in which doses were directly related to ones level of experience and body weight. Then a certain amount of carbs were recommended per iu injected.

As pointed out to me recently this really doesn’t make the most sense as far as optimizing the effects of the drug and preventing the onset of insulin resistance. Due to the amount of dextrose in my PWO shakes I am already creating a rather high insulin spike and with the addition of exogenous insulin I am creating a huge and possibly damaging insulin spike.

I have used insulin once before and loved the way it helped me recover from intense workouts. I am strongly debating starting DC training after I am done cutting this summer and staying on for some time. This would give me 3 intense workouts a week. I am now currently trying to develop a protocol that would allow me to recover from those 3 training sessions but without using the PWO method. I would also like to use insulin for the duration of a 12 week cycle but hopefully without negatively affecting my insulin sensitivity.

For those of you still reading, thank you. I will now get to my main point and question. I want to hear peoples thoughts on this insulin protocol, keep in mind my training days would be Tue PM, Thur PM, Sun PM.

Thurs. Tues. Sat. Sun. 450mg glucophage with high carb meal.

Mon. Wed. Fri. AM humalog injections/ up to 8iu with 30gram protein and 50g low GI carbs every hour for three hours. No fat intake during that 3 hour time frame.

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[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

On a side note, here is a synopsis of a protocol that was emailed to me by a friend. It’s not his protocol but was designed for him by a so called PED ‘guru’.

Basically, take humilin R spread throughout the day (3iu per shot I think) PLUS use 10iu with meals, three times per day.

A faster way to set someone down the path to insulin resistance and type II diabetes, I cannot think of.

Bushy[/quote]

Isn’t this very similar to what a true diabetic would do when dosing their insulin?

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
I would be interested to hear any other protocols that people know of or have created or tried.

Bushy[/quote]

Me too, but I’m glad you gave the above an OK. I basically made the protocol out of your past advice.

BigKiwi knows insulin!

I plan on following his, but it looks like Bushy’s preference’s I think.

I will post his later when I have time right now I have to hit the books :x

What the hell, I’ll read in a sec… here is basically what he advises:

use humalog… do before cardio in morning when first wake up, then do it post workout later in the day. He recommends starting aroudn3 iu’s and increasign to where you prefer 10-20.

He like injecting into muscle - he see’s less fat gain. Just aspirate.

I will post more on what he recommends as far as carbs later…

Don’t Mean To Hijack
Also There is a person in the medical field on another forum that is spouting this stuff against slin … From what I know about insulin seems a good debate by him - just saying the negatives in his opinion out weigh the positives:

Consider the function of insulin: its a “master hormone” affecting essentially all cells within the body in term of blood glucose metabolism and amino acid uptake. That�??s where the “benefits” of insulin come from for bodybuilders. But those aside, I think they are far outweighed by the negative effects in a nondiabetic. The point of taking insulin as a bodybuilder is to essentially induce hypoglycemia—you have to take enough to have an effect. If you just take a little bit, the body secretes hormones in response to the falling blood glucose levels, effectively negating the effects of the insulin. When you take enough to induce hypoglycemia, you have the beneficial side effect of amino acid uptake (and other minor effects)—which can lead to muscle growth under the right conditions but you have a potential plethora of negative side effects.

The body has a set point (normoglycemia) where it tries to maintain no matter what. It also has a biphasic hormonal cascade—one for hyperglycemia (elevated blood glucose) and one for hypoglycemia (below normal). The overall goal of the body is to make sure the brain is getting the fuel (glucose) it needs. Insulin is the hormone that is secreted when you are hyperglycemic. So, say you eat a meal containing simple carbohydrates. The sugar from that meal is absorbed into the blood stream from the mouth and stomach. As this sugar enters the blood stream, your blood glucose goes up. As it goes up, the body responds by secreting insulin. The body knows exactly how much insulin that it needs to secrete to bring your blood glucose levels back down to normal. That�??s why dietary manipulation is probably the best way of controlling insulin spikes and is much, much safer with fewer negative effects than injecting exogenous insulin.

Inducing hypoglycemia by taking insulin is more complex. Hypoglycemia will deplete the body�??s glycogen stores as the body breaks down the glycogen in an effort to mobilize glucose and return blood glucose to normal. This depletion leads to decreased performance in the gym, which leads to decreased stimulation of muscle growth. I’m also a powerlifter. I’m an insulin dependant diabetic–and have been for over 20 years and I’m a doctor in a very, very specialized field of medicine. Having stable blood glucose levels the week prior to a meet is the single most important thing I have to deal with as diabetic. One episode of severe hypoglycemia will significantly affect my max lifts (ie what I’d do at the meet) for up to 3 days. So don’t take a “little low blood sugar” lightly. It�??s not just a “shaky weak feeling”.

Second, hypoglycemia stimulates the adrenals for epinephrine release as a means of increase circulating glucose within the blood. Epinephrine (adrenalin) works in two ways. It directly inhibits the effects of insulin by binding with alpha 1 receptors in the liver, which leads to the phosphorylation of insulin, deactivating it. So if you take enough insulin to get “shaky and weak” you will not see the benefit of the insulin like you think you will because your body will do everything it can to shut it down in an effort to maintain normal blood glucose levels. Second, insulin activates Beta receptors in the liver and skeletal muscle, leading to the breakdown of stored glycogen. The glucose from this is released into the blood stream to stabilize your blood glucose levels at their normal level. If you take enough insulin, you can seriously deplete the body�??s stores of glycogen, leading to flat, weak, appearing and functioning muscles.

Third, hypoglycemia induces the secretion of glucagon from the alpha cells of the pancreas. Glucagon also leads to the breakdown of stored glycogen, but it also mobilizes free fatty acids and ketoacids in the blood stream to serve in the production of energy and it will affect urea metabolism.

Now, the secretion of epinephrine and glucagon are the classic stress response you see with the “fight or flight response” that you as a powerlifter should know all too well as you approach a max single. Think about it, after this “fight or flight” response, you always feel tired. Why? Because of what has happened with your glycogen stores and blood glucose. It�??s pretty simple. It�??s virtually impossible to train hard if you are inducing fatigue like this. The body will have to rest and recooperate, replenishing lost glycogen before you will be at any degree of maximal functionality again. This will also lead to secretion of cortisol as a result of the “stress” you’ve induced. While cortisol has its place in the stress response, it is also a catabolic hormone.

Insulin also has that great side effect of not distinguishing between fat and muscle cells in terms of nutrient uptake. Insulin will increase fatty acid synthesis. It essentially forces fat cells to take in blood lipids which are converted to triglycerides. It also has effects on cholestrol levels. This has obvious negative cardiovascular effects.

Insulin forces fat cells to make fatty acid esters and it reduces the conversion of fat cell stores into blood fatty acids—ie it makes the body more likely to store fat because it decreases the breakdown of fat cells. So what you get with taking insulin is potentially increased bodyfat with any potential muscle growth you get.

I also mentioned the “shaky weak” feeling several times in this post. What�??s that? It�??s a direct result of secretion of epinephrine due to low blood glucose. Remember, the body�??s goal is homeostasis. It�??s going to secrete glucagon and epinephrine in response the injected insulin as the blood glucose drops. You have to take enough insulin to overcome this homeostatic mechanism which is where things get very, very dangerous.

The sole source of energy for the brain is glucose from the blood stream. The body does everything it possibly can to maintain the blood glucose so that there is fuel for the brain. If your blood glucose becomes low, the brain is one of the first organs to be effected because low blood sugar means the brain is not getting the fuel it needs to function. If an individual takes enough insulin to stimulate low blood glucose, they risk the possibility of inducing loss of consciousness or seizures, or even death as a result of the insulin depriving the blood of the glucose it needs to work. You can, in theory, develop permenant brain damage from one severe episode of hypoglycemia. Thats the dangerous, scary bad part of taking insulin. Its not just something that will take a few minutes to get over, it can kill you. Not only that, but say you have one episode of seizures, seizures which were induced as a result of the brain not having enough fuel to function—read part of the brain dying—you will run the risk of irreversable damage from that single episode. Its thought that brief of mild hypoglycemia may have no lasting effects on the brain, though it can temporarily alter brain responses to additional hypoglycemia. Severe hypoglycemia can produce lasting damage. This can include impairment of cognitive function, motor control, or even consciousness. The likelihood of permanent brain damage from any given instance of severe hypoglycemia is difficult to estimate, and depends on many factors including age, recent blood and brain glucose experience, concurrent problems such as hypoxia, and availability of alternative fuels.

There, did that answer your question? That�??s why I think taking insulin is stupid. Its got its positive effects, but the negative (ie exhaustion, fat deposition, and potential death) far outweigh the positives. Insulin is something I would not mess with if I wasn’t a diabetic.

[quote]retailboy wrote:
What the hell, I’ll read in a sec… here is basically what he advises:

use humalog… do before cardio in morning when first wake up, then do it post workout later in the day. He recommends starting aroudn3 iu’s and increasign to where you prefer 10-20.

He like injecting into muscle - he see’s less fat gain. Just aspirate.

I will post more on what he recommends as far as carbs later…

[/quote]

Please post up a link whenever you get the time. I am sceptical of the AM insulin pre cardio. I usually do my cardio on an empty stomach, add in humalog with no carbs and I’m done:(

Sorry… I was typing this and then your post came up.

http://www.bigkiwi.co.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19&sid=0e369ff16be5045740bc95af55996edc

That’s Big Kiwi’s forums… he’s in jail right now :\ … but his wife still talks to him and posts for him… but he’s only been in jail since like early 07 so any post before then are really good that he posts on slin. He mentions usuing a different type of slin even faster working but not what he advises to most people… here is his site:
http://www.bigkiwi.co.nz/index.html

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Just really quickly because I’m on the run - I’ll respond more later date - here is Kiwi’s answer of why slin when he did it POST CARDIO:

“I do feel that after cardio seems to be the best time to take slin. I feel the uptake of creatine, glutamine, and proteins seems to be better as muscles are alot more depleted than in workout.”

Thanks for the detailed response Bush I’ll post later.

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[quote]retailboy wrote:
Just really quickly because I’m on the run - I’ll respond more later date - here is Kiwi’s answer of why slin when he did it POST CARDIO:

[/quote]

I must have misread something. I thought the slin was suggested Pre Cardio. Post makes a little more sense to myself. However in the time frame that I am going to be using insulin my cardio will be slim to none as I attempt to pack on a few pounds.

Bushy et al, i have obviously read quite a lot about PWO slin usage of no more than 10i.u, and with 10-15g simple carbs per i.u.

This is the “original” protocol i believe.

But while i know this is beneficial as it increases the ‘window of opportunity’ for 3-6 hours rather than 15mins(!), i am inclined to think that if one was to do the dose at some other time of the day, then you would get 2 insulin surges, and 2 “windows” no?

The thing is, if it is used in the morning, is it safe to train 3-4-5 hours later…? As long as you are keeping well carbed up, sipping a CHO/BCAA mixture during workout too…?

I have a few questions… i hope this is ok…?

It is often taken on workout days only, why is this?
It is the fact that slin use when the muscles arent fatigued, will not lead to hypertrophy, but adipose deposit?
But what about the fact that recovery and hypertrophy is done on the off/rest days, wouldnt it be productive to dose every day a week, or will that lead to sure-fire diabetes?

I know that you are a fan of using more complex carbs with slin BBB, does this tend to lead to less fat deposit for you?
I was wondering about this - with the slin in your system, then does it matter what the carb is as there is a massive insulin spike anyway and the CHO will only end up as glucose anyway… so why do you prefer the complex BBB?

For the correct dose, it is advised that 1i.u is used each day to a comfortable dose (how would you know? sleepiness?!) or a max of 1i.u per 20lbs LBM.
At the beginning of this thread, it was suggested that this protocol is not the best for maximizing the effects, and for lessening the chances of increased insulin resistance - can this please be expanded on?
As far as i understand, i get that due to the natural spike with some glucose PWO - while the muscles are gagging for it - you would be getting a higher amount of insulin in your body, thus potentially increasing resistance, but couldnt the regular administration of Metformin combat this resistance?

ALSO (sorry), with the benefit of PWO use being the maximised window - when the muscles are naturally screaming out for it too - then why isnt this the best use of it? Is that due to the point i questioned/mentioned earlier about there being 2 anabolic spikes when not dosed PWO?

Please forgive all these questions, i think they are relevant to this thread, i am not at a level with slin where i could design or use a protocol, but i am looking into it out of interest.
I have quite a number of articles on the subject that i am currently studying, some threads too… but i havent come across the answers to these questions that have occured recently.

JJ

Alright fellas… Alittle confessional here. Ive never mentioned this before due to, well, embarassment. But take it for what its worth, everybody makes mistakes.

The first time I did insulin I was around 24 years old. I had already been competing for three years and had experience with GH. One my friends had started experimenting with slin and I decided to give it a try. I was gonna run 8ius am, and 8ius pwo. For some reason, everyone I spoke with advised to go 10g of sugar per iu of slin (mistake #1). Alright, so here I go, I’m all ready and excited, its my first morning. The problem was, I had been using gh (6mg serano) which has 18ius/bottle. I would dilute it with 180ius of BS water to make it easier to dose (maybe you can see where this is headed). So, I load up the insulin pin (U-100).

Without thinking, I load up 80ius of humilin-R. Yeah that’s 8 0. Boom, it goes in. So I’m standing there looking at the syringe and oh shit, what did I do?! Now, I’m 24, thinking I know everything, no medical insurance and pretty ignorant. To make a reallt long story just long, every two hours on the nose I would start going hypo and have to take in some sugar. This went on for about 12-15 hours. The next day I was fine, but scared shitless and didn’t use slin again for somw time.

Obviously since that very very stupid mistake I get regular checkups and everything is fine. My docs throughout the years have been fully briefed on everything and I am 100% healthy… And very very very lucky.

-M

[quote] JJ wrote:
Bushy et al, i have obviously read quite a lot about PWO slin usage of no more than 10i.u, and with 10-15g simple carbs per i.u.

This is the “original” protocol i believe.

But while i know this is beneficial as it increases the ‘window of opportunity’ for 3-6 hours rather than 15mins(!), i am inclined to think that if one was to do the dose at some other time of the day, then you would get 2 insulin surges, and 2 “windows” no?

The thing is, if it is used in the morning, is it safe to train 3-4-5 hours later…? As long as you are keeping well carbed up, sipping a CHO/BCAA mixture during workout too…?

I have a few questions… i hope this is ok…?

It is often taken on workout days only, why is this?
It is the fact that slin use when the muscles arent fatigued, will not lead to hypertrophy, but adipose deposit?
But what about the fact that recovery and hypertrophy is done on the off/rest days, wouldnt it be productive to dose every day a week, or will that lead to sure-fire diabetes?

I know that you are a fan of using more complex carbs with slin BBB, does this tend to lead to less fat deposit for you?
I was wondering about this - with the slin in your system, then does it matter what the carb is as there is a massive insulin spike anyway and the CHO will only end up as glucose anyway… so why do you prefer the complex BBB?

For the correct dose, it is advised that 1i.u is used each day to a comfortable dose (how would you know? sleepiness?!) or a max of 1i.u per 20lbs LBM.
At the beginning of this thread, it was suggested that this protocol is not the best for maximizing the effects, and for lessening the chances of increased insulin resistance - can this please be expanded on?
As far as i understand, i get that due to the natural spike with some glucose PWO - while the muscles are gagging for it - you would be getting a higher amount of insulin in your body, thus potentially increasing resistance, but couldnt the regular administration of Metformin combat this resistance?

ALSO (sorry), with the benefit of PWO use being the maximised window - when the muscles are naturally screaming out for it too - then why isnt this the best use of it? Is that due to the point i questioned/mentioned earlier about there being 2 anabolic spikes when not dosed PWO?

Please forgive all these questions, i think they are relevant to this thread, i am not at a level with slin where i could design or use a protocol, but i am looking into it out of interest.
I have quite a number of articles on the subject that i am currently studying, some threads too… but i havent come across the answers to these questions that have occured recently.

JJ[/quote]

Wow bunch of questions HAHA

But I’ll one or two

Your body becomes resistance to insulin, NO it won’t lead to being diabetic, but that’s why weeks off are in a lot of people’s protocol.

Most effective seems to be EOD or 4 days a week 3-4 weeks on … but for year round use I 2-3 times a week would be safe.

Injecting that much during the day… you mies well be diabetic.

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I have issues here…

[quote]retailboy (some other guy? BigKiwi?) wrote:
Inducing hypoglycemia by taking insulin is more complex. Hypoglycemia will deplete the body�??s glycogen stores as the body breaks down the glycogen in an effort to mobilize glucose and return blood glucose to normal. This depletion leads to decreased performance in the gym, which leads to decreased stimulation of muscle growth. I’m also a powerlifter. I’m an insulin dependant diabetic–and have been for over 20 years and I’m a doctor in a very, very specialized field of medicine. Having stable blood glucose levels the week prior to a meet is the single most important thing I have to deal with as diabetic. One episode of severe hypoglycemia will significantly affect my max lifts (ie what I’d do at the meet) for up to 3 days. So don’t take a “little low blood sugar” lightly. It�??s not just a “shaky weak feeling”.
[/quote]

I disagree with the assertion that stable blood glucose levels for an entire week or one severe hypo episode will significantly affect the performances of a type 1 diabetic for up to 3 days. As long as I am not taken to the hospital, the worst I can possibly experience from insulin-induced hypoglycemia is a headache that lasts a few hours after the episode as my body renormalizes itself. A 3 day effect for anything outside of going into a coma is not accurate and overstated.

Also the type 1 diabetic has not only defective insulin production, but also has defective counter-regulatory responses (glucagon, epinephrine, cortisol) to hypoglycemia and he technically should not be using himself as an example for situations to deter healthy persons from taking exogenous insulin; their body acts in vastly different manners with respect to glucose homeostasis and their response to insulin is not the same.

No the “shakes” are a direct result of low brain glucose levels. Why would epinephrine release cause you to feel “shaky and weak” if epinephrine release is supposed to be a part of the “return to normoglycemia (ie, feeling normal again because your glucose is back above 60-70 mg/dL)?”

And who said you need to take insulin use to this point to get positive growth effects anyways? Where is the evidence?

I agree that it is extremely dangerous, but we need to be properly informed and most importantly UNBIASED in our opinions before we think we can write about why the dangerous nature of insulin use and what it does is enough to deter a person without diabetes to never take it…

Not really much to contribute and dont mean to clog it up just want to say thank you fellas this is an awesome discussion, just sittin back 'spongin it up!