T Nation

Best First and Last Cycle

Good evening guys (from Spain, recluded in my home due to coronavirus jaja), this is my first topic and would like to know your thoughts on this subject, even would like to make it a sticky if it ends up been valuable for other people like me in the future.

A little background of me: I am 29, 6’8 tall, and currently about 220 lb, quite a big guy you may think…but no, just my skeleton and that, you would say I am big but not massive.

I had a year of anorexia a few years ago, I lost all my muscle, developed arduously during my twenties, and unfortunately damaged my endocrine system. Got a few bloodwork done and always the same: 500 ng, which is medium-low. Long story short: started trt a year ago but the doctor always keeping me on small doses such as nevido (1000 mg) every three months and that, resulting in…well you could imagine, no working axis and no testosterone to replace it.

I have decided to go to the dark side and start cycling. My question is the following:

“which would be the cycle you would use during your whole life (2, 3 cycles a year) for the rest of your life if you had to take into account these variables (engineer mind here sorry, don’t like to overcomplicate basic things nor want to play to pseudoscientist with lots of chemicals):
2- low side effects, keeping my hair, healthy liver and bloodwork, nothing to hear about losing erections (deca dick stories)…etc.
3- best gains but not cut or low fat, just massive, Brock o’hurn style.”
4- lifetime commitment, or been able to keep gains long-term, preferably both.

I have heard and think that the best for these points would be just e. testosterone, the dosage varying between 500 and 700 (have heard that going higher is just reaching a point of diminishing returns). Testosterone is cheap and is easy on the body. I have discarted these compounds for the following reasons:
-deca: deca dick, I keep hearing about that and just don’t want to run the risk
-tren: the side effects and that I don’t look for the cut and 3D delts effects, looks artificial to me
-anadrol: too powerful, don’t wanna risk damaging the liver
-primo, masteron, clen, win: low capacity to build mass/cutting substances

We have left Dbol and test as powerful substances with relative low price and high bang for the buck in terms of pure muscle mass.

So… thoughts? anything I left? recommendations? suggestions? everything constructive will be welcome. Thanks in advance people, you are helping a lot of guys doing what you do.

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You’ve taken the heavy hitters off the table. Test and anavar would be my vote outta what’s left. I’ve never used D-bol

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thanks for replying, the thing is that the heavy ones as you said, could be less dangerous than I think, so if something I thought beforehand is not right, please let me know,

cheers man

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I’m in the same boat as you (engineer too), and not wanting regrets from heavy blasts when I’m in my 50s+.

I think you should be able to get plenty of size with test, dbol, tbol, mast, and EQ. Test, EQ and dbol being cheap compounds and not faked to often.

The golden era guys got big off of test, dbol and primo. Primo is really expensive though.

Basically, if you can’t gain off of the list I mentioned, gear is not your issue.

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yeah man, that’s what I thought, I looked for the cycles the golden era guys run and arnold was not as heavy an abuser as some guys nowadays (could be wrong), for what I have researched he was on primo (mild form of testosterone) and Dbol, and in average dosages, and IMO, that pysique is superior and what I would like to aim for at a lower scale.

Tbol, mast and EQ give you serious size? I have researched and people seem to disagree.

Cheers man, thanks for replying

Primo is actually a dht derivative. One advantage dht derived aas have is that they don’t convert to estrogen. Mast, and tbol are also dht derived. Dbol is test derived aas as is EQ. Dht is a natural derivative of test. Deca and tren are based on nandralone (also a natural derivative of test, in fact npp and deca are just estered nandralone. Nandralone/nandralone derivatives seem to have the worst sides but also are powerful.

I have only run test and var, but try to learn what I can about aas. Also on trt.

You probably won’t get the same size off of mast, EQ or tbol, but the gains are reported to be more loyal after the cycle. Dbol will blow you up, but you will lose a bunch of water weight when you stop. Still a good bulker. On tbol you might spend more money, but won’t need as much or any ais, which saves money and is better for your health (ais are pretty terrible for your heart and bones).

If your training, genetics and diet are pretty good, you can be pretty impressive off just test IMO.

My plan for the near future is just to run test. I didn’t really like var, and last cycle (my first) I ran test too low (325 per week, which worked some, but was probably less effective as I was already on trt).



Should be noted nonaromatising AAS are typically far harsher on lipids… A side effect many leave out. Over many years this will exponentially increase plaque build up. Also chlorodehydromethyltestosterone (tbol) is a test derivitave

The 4-chloro alteration makes it incapable of aromatising or from having affinity to the 5a reductase enzyme. Super, super harsh on lipids (anecdotally), is a cross between dbol and clostebol.

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You are correct about tbol (a modification of dbol which is test derived).

Anything can give you serious size. Genetics play a huge role as does diet/training. Some compounds have properties more suited for gaining size than others… That being said if you’re using like 1000mg masteron you’re going to gain size

I appreciate your reply man, good info in there

exactly, but of what I have learned here, the higher the dosage, the point of diminishing returns kicks in, and you get more sides with less benefits, what I want is optimization,

thanks for your reply man

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didn’t know that, so tbol is more prone to heart attacks than dbol?

yeah, I am a tall ass guy jaja

More prone to heart attacks is subjective. You’ve got people like @iron_yuppie who can use oxandrolone with minimal lipid strain. Then you’ve got people like me wherein my HDL will drop to 27 on mast/deca (low dose too, total dose below 250mg/wk).

What seriously dictates cardiac risk is how severely a compound impacts cardiac morphology. Does dbol or tbol enlarge you’re heart to a greater degree thus predisposing one to fatal arrythmia over time… I can’t answer that

But generally I’d hypothesise mg/mg tbol is harsher on lipids.

You can say that again… I bet you’ve got girls coming after you from every single percievable angle… Or not, I’m short and I’ve been rejected for the sole basis of my height a few times thus long term it’s created somewhat of an inferiority complex that I’m highly aware of… Not about me though

Six foot EIGHT!!!

I will take that into account then, now that I was convinced of a test/tbol cycle I learn it is worse for the heart jaja, shit. what would I need to look for if running it to avoid strokes and that stuff? cholesterol and blood pressure right?

depends man, when I was more jacked…it helps, a lot, but when I was anorexic it was day and night, disgust looks everywhere…so it all comes down to been balanced. Can tell you that the average girl will prefer a short jacked guy over a thin tall guy always, And can attest it. If the guy is equally jacked as the short guy, then the winner will be the tall guy.

thanks for replying man, learning some good stuff

Ya’ll make me glad I’m 6’2". Y’all also make me glad that I’m married and don’t have to deal with dating bullshit anymore

Now to answer the question:

You should probably start with testosterone only first. The standard first cycle recommendation is 500mg/week for 12 weeks. Since it looks like you want to stay on year round it would be recommended to Blast & Cruise where you do 500mg/week for 12 weeks, then go down to a more sustainable dose like 200 mg for 12 weeks, then back up to 500… wash, rinse, repeat.

If you want to add more compounds like dbol, eq, anavar then it would be best to wait until your 2nd or 3rd, or 4th blast.


Since you removed the heaviest ones. The best for what you want then left over would then be Test with Dbol, safest, least chance of sides, great gains, and you’ll feel great on it too, the dbol gains are a lot of water as well, but I guess you won’t mind if you hate looking thin, fulls up nicely especially if you look thin.

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I felt like dogshit on this drug absent of hepatotoxicity. Response is individualistic in nature, I felr fantastic on low dose nandrolone, not many would vouch for that.

that was my first idea, thanks for confirming man :ok_hand: