T Nation

Berardi Contradiction?

So I’m currently in the process of leaning out using Berardi’s Massive Eating methods. However, I believe I’ve run into a contradiction. In his old articles (Don’t Diet in Appetite for Construction, and his Lean Eating articles), he advocates P+C for your first three meals, C ratio dependent on your sensitivity, and then P+F for your last three meals, vegetables and low-GI, limited consumption of fruits with every meal. So far so good.

Now, in Massive Eating Reloaded, he identifies nutrient timing (which I understand would be integrated into the “taper” method described above), so your P+C would happen post-workout and your P+F pre-workout.

Now, in Massive Eating Reloaded and Gourmet Nutrition, there is no mention
of what to do on non-workout days. Am I limited to just eating P+F, with only fruits and vegetables? According to his new articles, oatmeal is no longer good in the mornings? Does the P+C x3, P+F x3 taper still apply? I’d love to have this clarified. Thanks guys!

In my experience with Berardi he’s never adamently stated that you should do P+F pre-workout and P+C post-. I do recall him saying that P+F pre- works for some people and P+C works for other people. I’ve tried P+F pre-workout in the past and it just doesn’t work for me.

Regarding Berardi’s recommendations about not eating oatmeal: I have no clue what you’re talking about. I’m no Berardi disciple or anything but I do recall reading a 2-part article series on his website touting the benefits of oats.

Thats just what I know. Somebody with more knowledge should chime in to give a concrete answer.

Or you could do like I do

7:30am P+C
9:30am P+C
12:30pm P+F
2:30pm P+F
5:00pm Workout
6:00pm Postworkout P+C
7:00pm P+C
Bedtime P+F

I think the take home message was not “Do not have any carbs prior to workout at all” but rather “do not have carbs DIRECTLY prior to your workout”

Read the 7 Habits.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459493

If you can see where morning oatmeal fits into there (unless of course you lift prior to it), then please explain it to me.

RIT Jared

Unfortunately, in his Massive Eating Reloaded, he outlines a plan of pure P+F prior to workout, and pure P+C post work out, which somewhat contradicts his taper method in “Don’t Diet” which advocates P+C for the first meals of the day, and then P+F for the latter meals, which he notes is optimal for fat loss.

However, Gourmet Nutrition explicitly states, and here is a quote - pg 12

“4. If want to eat a carbohydrate that?s not a fruit or a vegetable (this ncludes things like things rice, pasta, potatoes, quinoa, etc.), you can ? but you?ll need to save it until after you?ve exercised. Although these grains are dietary staples in North America, heart disease, diabetes and cancer are North American medical staples ? there?s a relationship between the two! To stop heading down the heart disease highway, reward yourself for a good workout
with a good carbohydrate meal right after (your body best tolerates these carbohydrates after exercise). For the rest of the day, eat your lean protein and a delicious selection of fruits and veggies. To make this rule easy on you we?ve labeled the meals in this book as PW (good post-workout meal; to be eaten within a few hours after exercising) and Anytime (good meals for any other time of the day).”

Then, his “morning oatmeal” meal is labeled as Post workout. However, in Don’t Diet, meal #1 is…

“Meal #1
8 oz. cottage cheese
1 banana
1 scoop of Protein
1 cup of oatmeal (before cooked).”

I certainly see a contradiction here. I’d like to know what is “optimal,” and not merely “satisfactory.” Obviously all this takes a certain amount of experimentation to see how I react, but this does obviously have an effect on how I plan my days. Thanks in advance for clarification.

[quote]zdrax wrote:
Unfortunately, in his Massive Eating Reloaded, he outlines a plan of pure P+F prior to workout, and pure P+C post work out, which somewhat contradicts his taper method in “Don’t Diet” which advocates P+C for the first meals of the day, and then P+F for the latter meals, which he notes is optimal for fat loss.
[/quote]

Don’t Diet is a cutting plan, while Massive Eating Reloaded is a mass gaining plan…?

If you need to loose weight, P&F preworkout, if not protein and carb. There are multiple ways to do things for one goal and an insane amount of ways to accomplish an assortment of goals. His advice is not a condradiction! Pick one, do it, and if it works, stick with it. Keep it simple then follow through with that shit like no tomorrow.

P+C in the early part of the day on non training days, P+C during and post workout on training days. the rest of the times is P+F. laters pk

I think this is bordering on “Analysis Paralysis”

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I think this is bordering on “Analysis Paralysis”[/quote]

Agreed!

The Don’t Diet plan is based on the relatively old massive eating article. This was way before the days of the nutrient timing article. In the same way as much of the nutrition information on this site has done (e.g. T-Dawg diet and Delta diet) the guidelines presented by JB have gradually evolved and changed and hopefully they will continue to do so in the future.

So what does this mean? Once again I find myself saying that you have to find what works best for you. In the old days it was believed that you HAD to consume 500g of carbs to bulk. This did lead to some fat gain in some people. JB believes that 500g isn’t necessary and many people can actually bulk on much fewer carbs. JB suggests that overall calorie intake is more important to ensure that people can slap on some LBM. JB’s nutrient timing article is a plan designed to allow people to bulk with virtually no fat gain at all! Some people however might find that whilst they aren;t gaining any fat they aren’t gaining enough LBM by only eating their “non fruit and veggie” carbs PWO. Therefore they should try adding in more of these carbs so that they produce more of the anabolic hormone insulin. A sensible place to add them in would be at breakfast on non workout days.

Basically I’m advocating a proccess of trial and error until you find a process that works for you.

I am currently bulking (but in the middle of a much needed back off week). I am currently eating about 400g of carbs each day and taking in 4500 total calories (I am active during the day).

On workout days my carbs come PWO (dextrose, sweet potatoes, oats etc…) and on non workout days, which are still active I consume all my carbs (except a few) by 3pm. My carbs come from oats at breakfast and then lots of fruits, lentils, kidney beans and veggies such tomato passata, onions, carrots (higher carb veggies) etc… I then eat P+F meals in the evening with a few carbs coming from spinach, sprouts, cabbage (lower carb veggies) etc…

My daily totals are roughly 4500cals, 400g protein, 400g carbs and 140g fat. I have to admit that I am gaining a bit of fat at the moment so I am going to reduce my cals and carbs just a little bit and see how it goes. You might need fewer or more carbs depending on your activity and the amount of LBM you already have.

Hope this helps!
I think I sounded like an old man during this post - I mentioned the old days!!! I’m only 19 for heaven’s sake - I’m going out to get myself a blonde whilst I can.

who am I kidding?? I’m not that picky!

How about you listen to the first 11 minutes of Berardi on Double Tap?

He is basically describing the VAST MAJORITY of T-mag, seriously.

the post encompasses it.

Whoa whoa whoa! Man, some of you have certainly leapt to some very… creative assumptions about me and my nutrition. At the moment, I have been following P+F at all times except post-workout which has been P+C. The reason I made this post was not that I “couldn’t decide” or was “paralyzed by over-analysis.” Quite the opposite - I just wanted a clarification for myself and for those, in the future, who wished to reference the totality of Berardi’s work. I have already established my diet as following what has been outlined in Massive Eating Reloaded for quite some time now. Truly, it was a more thorough investigation of Berardi’s material that lead to the post, not some sort of “paralysis by information.” Don’t be so quick to leap to conclusions.

I am hardly the type to sit and stress over the minutae of arguably minimal segments of workout and nutrition theory. I have always prided myself on my capacity to initiate and not simply consider and pontificate. Talk to any of my peers and they will assure you I truly “unleash the beast” on every workout.

Berardi said to avoid carbs 30-90 minutes prior to workout and then consume them during and post workout.