T Nation

Benefits of Estrogen for TRT Patients

I take it and believe it should be at optimal levels. It’s cardioprotective and may be of value in treating CVD. It’s been shown to reduce the accumulation of abdominal visceral fat and protect against insulin resistance. It is being investigated as an anti-aging hormone as it blocks carcinogenesis, block aging and exerts antiproliferative properties. Low levels are linked to increased of developing cancer or of death from cardiovascular disease as low DHEA-S plasma levels are linked with an enhanced risk of cardiovascular mortality.

It decreases levels of proinflammatory cytokines interleukin 6 and TNF-alpha. It has been found to increase BMD in spine patients on treatment.

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I’m not sure. Back in my PED days we knew estrogen would increase on AAS. Most gained weight and fluid retention was undoubtedly as least part of that. The roid rage issues some had were linked to estrogen. A few had trouble with gyno, these were mostly bodybuilders, but I knew some weightlifters and powerlifters that experienced it. Of course, we’re talking about using multiple anabolics plus testosterone.

A novice PED user would start with one oral, usually Dianabol. Another would be added, then an injectable, usually nandrolone. Testosterone later, and while the doses weren’t crazy by today’s standards, using two or three orals with two or three injectables was not uncommon for an advanced lifter.

The bodybuilders were the first to use serms as they we especially concerned with being “shredded” and, in my experience at least, had a much higher incidence of gynecomastia. I’m sure a lot of “androgens good, estrogens bad” thought prevailed over the years. I might have bought into it back then but by the time guys started using products like Nolvadex I pretty much had figured out what worked for me and I was not going to mess with it.

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He’s not, but what level would you consider “extreme”?

I know. I think he makes a lot of sense, but there are some guys who do not react well to estrogen, like some women, and report doing much better with an AI. Still, I think most are overthinking this and much of the time over reacting to what they believe are results of not “being steady”.

I think we’ll even see more research on this in the future.

There is an optimal range for everything, I cannot have potassium anywhere closer to low normal or problems are encountered, the same thing can be said for excess potassium, it will stop my heart.

Whether it’s testosterone, estrogen and even DHT, there is a limited to how much each individual can handle before problems are encountered. If you have excess DHT, you will have ache if you are prone to it, if you have excess estrogen, you will be moody and bitchy, libido will be affected by the stress then affecting your well being.

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I used an ai going by feel as sparingly as I could for 3 years. I did pretty well with that. Eventually I noticed that not even ONCE had I been able to link a bad side effect to a high e2 test. Then I heard what Dr Keith Nichols has to say. So even with symptoms I’d take even less ai than before. Well it got down to like 1/32nd of a pill.

I decided to use none. Sure enough same sides came and went then never came back. No ai past 8 months. I inject daily. Was 300/wk. I hcg. Now 200/wk w 1500hcg weekly.

The fact that real physical symptoms present themselves then really do go away shortly after adding ai is what lead to the popularity. Also, that happened when TRT wasn’t so popular. It larger doses were which exaggerated the effects.

My e2 was 47 iirc last test. It was higher on a higher dose. I’m completely dialed in.

He’s missing the entire point haha :slight_smile:

No such thing as unlimited. Do you understand how the body converts test to three hormones?

Why is it that if you increase free t you get more DHT and estrogens as well?

If that’s how the body operates why would you want to control that?

Since when does the body create a hormone that’s harmful to you?

Where did the fear of estrogen come from? Find a source.

Why do we block estrogen if many of the benefits we seek from trt are due to estrogen. We don’t block DHT or free t. Why?

Now consider there is plenty of medical literature and nine of it says to watch out for estrogen.

It only says estrogen dominance and low estrogen in the abscence of hormones is an issue.

If the body creates its own ratio where did this seeet spot come from.

Where did labs get their lab ranges from? I’ll tell you. Sick population of folks getting labs. So that e2 range is based on sick folks not healthy.

Ask these questions and see for yourself.

Good. I’ve been on TRT since 2002 and my doc never mentioned the use of one. My friends on TRT never used one either.

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@enackers,

Try to have a little patience for us slack-jawed low IQ neanderthals. It’s the responsibility of superior intellects like yourself.

However are you aware that many people convert different things at different rates? Without an AI a friend of mine maintains e2 in the 90+ range and has terrible symptoms.

But hey, his body knows best and he should just keep it there. I’ll let him know.

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How frequent does he inejct

Can you point me to the controlled studies that conclude that the body will create its own perfect sweet spot when introducing exogenous hormones? I must have missed that one. And do you suppose your prostate loves high DHT (never mind your hair and skin)?

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The prostate has its on system for DHT and external DHT does not effect prostate dht levels.

The body creates its own estrogen as it always has. It doesn’t have to be exact. When we start therapy it is suggested we eat right, get fit and lose fat.

It doesn’t work for those who think Trt is a miracle therapy.

Even men who have fat in their body do not need ai most of the time.

Most men take an ai because of stupid symptoms like nipple sensirivify or the fact that they have emotions and feel like shedding a tear when watching a movie or whatever.

Almost all symptoms men have when they start dissipate.

When it comes to emotions . Well that’s the goal with hormones. To make us feel alive again. Not numb and dead to everything.

I’ll try to remember to get in a desktop computer later and find a way to share all the studies.

It’s jsut amazing to me that men want studies, but when it comes to taking an ai or blocking estrogen they don’t want to investigate further: they jsut take their docs word or the advice of a forum person.

Now I need to provide evidence to change folks minds on a topic where they didn’t have evidence in the first place.

Comical right.

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If you say so.

However, the body creates all kinds of things that are not beneficial, like cancer. I don’t know where you’re coming from with the relentless perception that the body is a magical unicorn that will always make the perfect ratios of everything and would never create conditions harmful to itself. One of the biggest problems common to everyone today is inflammation and autoimmune irregularities. Is that coming from the body or an outside source?

Again, I’m asking a simple question…if, say an e2 level of 35 accomplishes all the positive effects one would want, like bone density, cardio protection, good lipid profiles etc., then why would it be different just because you’re adding testosterone? You haven’t answered that question. You just keep repeating the assumption that the body will magically create the perfect ratios. And to me that’s a non-answer.

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I don’t disagree with your viewpoint @enackers, but this quote of what you said is the key, with the words “good balance” being the most important. You have to take into account that someone who is extremely obese (who probably should take other measures before starting TRT granted) will NOT have a good balance. They will excessively aromatase E2 until this problem is addressed. It’s a catch 22 for some folks. They can’t lose the weight without TRT, and they can’t benefit from T alone without losing the weight so the body can naturally balance out. There is a time and place for mild estrogen control, under very strict circumstances. The end result is to aim for no control whatsoever, but sometimes that’s a road too hard to bear for some, especially during the initial stabilization period.

I wish you wouldn’t call out members like that man, especially @hrdlvn, because he’s a good guy and he truly wants to help people here. He’s also been on TRT for longer than a lot of folks have been on this forum. I respect his advice.

You’ve also created a bit of a hypocrisy here, in that you fault a man for being on one side of a fence, and you take a hard stance on the other side. You say he isn’t willing to budge, but in a sense, neither are you right? Agree to disagree man and respect others experience and opinions even if they don’t necessarily jive with yours.

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I’ll just say this, to reiterate what I mentioned in my first post (that I am open to the truth…but truth has high standards)…

When I first came to this forum, I was the one fighting everyone tooth and nail that optimal E2 and testosterone may very well be a ratio, and not a static number. However, at the time, I was admittedly making that argument out of what instinctually made sense to me. I didn’t have any data to back that up.

Today I am not necessarily making the reverse argument, I’m simply asking for hard data so that I can finally come to a good conclusion.

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I called him out because he says things like “don’t listen to the advice on here because it’s not reviewed for accuracy”. I’ve asked the man numerous times, respectfully, to please understand the purpose behind my comments and to clarify his.

He does not clarify. Instead he runs around telling folks to take an ai if e2 is above range. Although they have zero symptoms. The other problem is making every man thing he’s going to get gyno.

So no I’m not trying to hurt heads but I think the man should sit down and have an educated non biased conversation with me. Otherwise if he can’t bsckup his points why should he be making suggestions. It’s bad for the new members. They don’t know anything.

I’m fixing my post a good balance is 100% correct and I don’t know what I was thinking saying that. Well I know why, it’s someone else’s talk that rubbed off on me :slight_smile:

I dropped AI from my protocol a few weeks before I started a blast. No AI on blast, none now on my regular trt program. Want to know what the difference has been? Zero. Zero difference. E2 went up a little bit and I feel exactly as good as I did before. Except now I’m not taking an additional drug that may or may not be good for me long term. Doing more with less is the key to almost everything in life. Unless you’re a huge outlier there should not be a need for AI while on trt.

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Dhea : everyone respond to it differently. It’s all about finding a dose that keeps you in a healthy range where you feel the benefits. Those being libido, good sleep and a few others.

No I can’t see it lowering hormones. It’s actually a hormone that’s a part of a chain of other hormones.

I can take 5mg because 25mg in 2 weeks had me super high and I had itching and etc

Pregnalone is great as well.

Where did you hear dhea can lower hormones? Maybe natural but I’ve not heard of this on trt since natural production is shut off.

Alpha gunner had made a comment about that dhea lowers other hormones.

I mean pregnelone comes from cholesterol. I believe we only need a small amount anyways