Benefits of Estrogen for TRT Patients

How many case examples would you like me to post? They are everywhere.

As I told you our medical director is a ER doc. He sees it too, and with the rise in AAS usage your first line of defense is seeing it more often.

In fact our doctor tried to help a guy, he wouldn’t listen. The guy was huge. Like 10% BF

Have you ever seen the autposy results of someone with that kind of history? I have, not pretty.

I am not trying to scare anyone, if you don’t believe that is totally fine.

I’m curious. What if someone is at 20 free t and complaining of low symptoms? What if this person then increases their dose to 30 and they tell you they feel fantastic and are so happy they are finally feeling better? Are you going to tell them they need to lower it back down to 20 because you have seen thousands of labs? Or this person is now on a steroid cycle?

I’m am curious as to how many men are in this predicament and because their doc thinks anything beyond 2019 lab standards is super high.

What if someone started ten years ago when the high end was 27 ft. They come see you, and with 1500/27 you think they are above range: yet they show you lab work from ten years ago showIng in range.

This is the thing about labs . BS.

Why did they need T to begin with?

I tried to tell him multiple times, they mocked me. I was trying to get their attention.

What is up your ass today?

This is absolute crud of a comment you don’t even know how the receptors work to make such a comment. These people who run AAS are running 15 different steroids along with testostorone. Test is not their problem.

Just goes to show you that you are totally out there in nowhere land with your logic.

You make it sound like aas use is guys who take 1000mg of Test a week. Or that receptors are desensitized. What kind of an expert are you that has never heard of Doctor Rouzier? Just goes to show how much research you have done.

Men can maintain 1500 / 35 free t year round for decades without any sensitization issues. Studies show this and I posted a video in a post i created where this was explained in detail.

@nhwatts also mentions how his endo is ok with the levels.

This is a waste of time. Tell us who you are where you work and your credentials. Not that you’ve seen 10k labs.

I am not going to go back and explain something that I have explained thoroughly.

I have NEVER seen anyone be able to stay on 45 in their trough for years that did not screw up BUN, Creatinine, EGFR, Cholesterol, HCT, HA1c and CRP.

They all climb (EGFR goes down). So when you tell me your patients all have good labs with these enormous free T numbers I DON’T BELIEVE YOU. Because I have seen it a million times.

Also, you are not equating the fact that 450 free T is this guys TROUGH. We have no problems with guys that have 180 free t, and we can assume, on a 7 day schedule that his FT got up to 360.

All of this has to be taken into to account. But if that is your trough, unless your injecting every day, you’re taking way too much.

To prove my point I am willing to put up 0.1 BTC for a bet.

I bet that if @NH_Watts stops drinking, stops oral sups, and cuts his dosage in half his HCT climbs higher than it has ever been, and he will feel even better.

I will provide the testing.

This is very interesting. Based on the ranges on their website, I’m just slightly above the top at 231 vs 224… But based on their old ranges I’m being compared too I’m way above.

Maybe I’ll try LabCorp next time.

Thanks again, appreciate the look.

Low t symptoms. The other thing about ranges is the fact that a man with total t or free t within range is told they are not having low t symptoms. It must be something else. Yet we all know most need trt when they fall close to the bottom range. Especially below 50.

Yea I know. Thats why history is so important.

You don’t use lab work to diagnose hypogonadism, you use lab work to confirm a suspicion of hypogonadism.

They are using an average, the upper limit for a 30 year old is not the same as a 50 year old.

I did too, long time ago in this thread.

You said you don’t need labs to diagnose. You must of missed my question, but what would a doctor look for otherwise to diagnose?

Symptomatology is much more important. Age is a huge factor. History.

So now you’re putting words in my mouth?

Let me be clear on the question, what is your dosing schedule, and when did you do your labs in comparison to your shot when you arrived at this 20 ng/dl conclusion?

Please read again and tell me what you would do to the man. If he sat at 20 free t for 3 years without resolution of symptoms are you really going to make him drop from 30?

No there are plenty of folks who have zero issues with what you just stated in regards to bun creative and whatever.

So you are telling me you have allowed men to stay above lab ranges and observed all of them having these issues? How did you manage this observation if In the first place you are to scared to even allow a man to take more T than the current standards. Or are you referring to folks who were taking tons more t for other purposes than symptom resolution?

I’m a little confused. I reference clinical experience and it’s shot down. Yet your clinical experience is valid. But the logic isn’t there. How do you know higher free t is bad for all men if in the first place you won’t let it happen.

Every man is unique. But we have one thing in common. Our body loves testostorone and needs it. We don’t aim to put every man at 35 or 40 free t. What we aim for is the minimal amount of t needed to resolve symptoms. For many men that seeks to be well above and beyond 20. Rarely does a man find symptom resolution below 20.

So what do you do for a man who isn’t feeling well when their labs fall within the upper range of labs do you tell them it’s depression and they need an ssri? What??

You said that I said you can’t run a 20 ng/dl without it wrecking your labs. I never said that.

But I am still trying to answer your question. This 20 ng/dl, how did we arrive there?

Ok so now let me ask you a question, is it different for someone who does every 7 days and land on 20?

So not only have you reduced the number from 30 (what dbossa suggested) to 20 you also reduced injections to twice a week. So do you understand how this affects actual testosterone numbers for the patient?

But thats not my point. My point is you are near peak when you measure on twice weekly. Maybe it goes to 25.

For someone on weekly that is going to swing from 40 20.

So no the latter you can’t do, it messes up your labs. Yours you can probably get away with.

Remember the context here of my accusations, the guys free T is 2x the range in his trough.

Do you consider that a cycle?

Well remember, the HCT is low BECAUSE of the kidney issues.

Yea Thomas O’connor. He says some silly things sometimes lol But he is a good guy, and he knows his shit when it comes to lipids for men that are on T or Steroids.

I know this cause one of our docs is really good at it, cause he is ER. My best friend is ER too, he is also good with it.