I’ve spent some time reading about how to overcome plateaus, but I still need some help.
My son is on WS4SB (just turned 16 and has been lifting for a little over a year). Since he has been on WS4SB (the last couple of months) all of his lifts have improved but his flat barbell bench. He has improved his incline bench, dumbbell flat bench, tricep exercises, rows; all of the lifts that should lead to a bigger bench. His diet is pretty good, not perfect. I am just not sure what else he should do. Although they say if you work the other areas without actually doing flat barbell bench-your bench will improve, it is not happening.
At this point, my feeling is that his bench is not going to improve unless he is directly working hard on his flat barbell bench for a period of time (not the rotation that is called for in WS4SB). He is really making good progress on WS4SB, and I think he should continue, but I’d also like to see his bench increase. It is almost like he is uncomfortable when he goes back to doing bench. Could it be more mental than physical?
I’m not a big fan of rotating exercises (especially for beginners). A huge part of getting strong at a particular lift is “learning” how to do the lift correctly. The insanely strong Westside guys have tons of experience, and benching is second nature to them, so they can rotate exercises no problem. For beginners or even intermediates, I think it’s important to spend as much time under the bar as you can, until the lift becomes automatic.
[quote]FJA wrote:
I’ve spent some time reading about how to overcome plateaus, but I still need some help.
My son is on WS4SB (just turned 16 and has been lifting for a little over a year). Since he has been on WS4SB (the last couple of months) all of his lifts have improved but his flat barbell bench. He has improved his incline bench, dumbbell flat bench, tricep exercises, rows; all of the lifts that should lead to a bigger bench. His diet is pretty good, not perfect. I am just not sure what else he should do. Although they say if you work the other areas without actually doing flat barbell bench-your bench will improve, it is not happening.
At this point, my feeling is that his bench is not going to improve unless he is directly working hard on his flat barbell bench for a period of time (not the rotation that is called for in WS4SB). He is really making good progress on WS4SB, and I think he should continue, but I’d also like to see his bench increase. It is almost like he is uncomfortable when he goes back to doing bench. Could it be more mental than physical?
Any suggestions or thoughts???[/quote]
A couple of months really isn’t enough time to determine the validity of a training method. He might just be adapting to the new style and appear to not be making progress. If everything is improving but the bench it may be a good sign of a mental block. Make sure you aren’t putting undue pressure on him to improve his bench, as this could intimidate him once he gets under the bar. It might also be a technique issue, not a strength issue.
It’s tough to offer any advice without seeing your kid press. There could be a technique issue somewhere. Usually novice lifters don’t stay tight enough. Improving on that alone can add 30-40 lbs to his bench.
I agree that more practice with the actual bench press movement will give you the best reward. But, depending on the goal of training, that might not make any sense.
Is your son training for a sport? How old is he? What is he pressing right now?
[quote]rmexico wrote:
I’m not a big fan of rotating exercises (especially for beginners). A huge part of getting strong at a particular lift is “learning” how to do the lift correctly. The insanely strong Westside guys have tons of experience, and benching is second nature to them, so they can rotate exercises no problem. For beginners or even intermediates, I think it’s important to spend as much time under the bar as you can, until the lift becomes automatic.[/quote]
I agree. Although the program is highly regarded, it seems by the time he gets comfortable with doing some of the exercises you are supposed to rotate. At least, for bench, I strongly believe he needs more time under the bar.
[quote]BigE05 wrote:
How is his back training? Shoulder training? frequency of training chest?
You might want to look into useing chains or bands. Also, you can look up the 200 rep challange article these can help.[/quote]
He is strictly following the WS4SB template so he works his back twice a week(different exercises), does rear delt rows, lateral raises and does incline bench, weighted push-ups and dumbbell bench. We have used chains with his barbell bench with his last rotation.
A couple of months really isn’t enough time to determine the validity of a training method. He might just be adapting to the new style and appear to not be making progress. If everything is improving but the bench it may be a good sign of a mental block. Make sure you aren’t putting undue pressure on him to improve his bench, as this could intimidate him once he gets under the bar. It might also be a technique issue, not a strength issue.
Just my thoughts. Best of luck to you both![/quote]
Very interesting. I am anxious for his bench to increase and I do unintentionally probably put pressure on him. It could be causing him stress.
[quote]Steel Nation wrote:
It’s tough to offer any advice without seeing your kid press. There could be a technique issue somewhere. Usually novice lifters don’t stay tight enough. Improving on that alone can add 30-40 lbs to his bench.
I agree that more practice with the actual bench press movement will give you the best reward. But, depending on the goal of training, that might not make any sense.
Is your son training for a sport? How old is he? What is he pressing right now?[/quote]
What do you mean by “stay tight enough”?
He is training for football, he’s just 16 and his 1RM is 220.
[quote]FJA wrote:
Steel Nation wrote:
It’s tough to offer any advice without seeing your kid press. There could be a technique issue somewhere. Usually novice lifters don’t stay tight enough. Improving on that alone can add 30-40 lbs to his bench.
I agree that more practice with the actual bench press movement will give you the best reward. But, depending on the goal of training, that might not make any sense.
Is your son training for a sport? How old is he? What is he pressing right now?
What do you mean by “stay tight enough”?
He is training for football, he’s just 16 and his 1RM is 220.[/quote]
When benching, his whole body should be tight. He should be gripping the bar tightly, have his shoulder blades pulled back and tight, he should be driving with his legs, and he should be arching his back. Do a search for some of Dave Tate’s articles on benching and he can give more info on a tight setup. Staying tight is crucial to big lifts not just in benching, but any major lift.
The other day should be DE/floorpress/close grip/whatever to work on the part of the bench that needs to be broguht up the most. For my next cycle I’ll be doing
2 weeks of close grip
2 weeks of DE benching
2 weeks of board or floor presses
2 weeks of DE pressing
This is in addition to the ME flat bench day. I’ve found I need to work on my lockout. So Instead of DE work for 4 weeks I’m doing something to target that.
I doubt that any beginning lifter will get anything out of dynamic bench. It’s hard enough to maintain good form when you’re not moving the bar as fast as you can. Doing heavy singles isn’t that helpful, either, because you don’t get as much time under the bar with heavy weights.
When you’re a beginner or even an intermediate, you can just bench (do sets of 3 or 5) and add weight to the bar practically every week for a long time. When you can’t go up by 5-lb increments, buy some microplates and use them.
It doesn’t need to be complicated. If the Westside guys could switch to Rippetoe and get stronger every time they lifted, they would. They only do the more advanced stuff because they have to.
[quote]FJA wrote:
Steel Nation wrote:
It’s tough to offer any advice without seeing your kid press. There could be a technique issue somewhere. Usually novice lifters don’t stay tight enough. Improving on that alone can add 30-40 lbs to his bench.
I agree that more practice with the actual bench press movement will give you the best reward. But, depending on the goal of training, that might not make any sense.
Is your son training for a sport? How old is he? What is he pressing right now?
What do you mean by “stay tight enough”?
He is training for football, he’s just 16 and his 1RM is 220.[/quote]
What position? From my experience, bench pressing doesn’t carry over very well to football performance. Squat, deadlift, and speed/agility work yes, bench press no. In any case, don’t turn your kid into a weightroom warrior. He should be training to improve field performance, not gym performance.
Go to elitefts.com and do a search for any articles by Dave Tate, there is one specific one titled Bench 600 Pounds(or something like that) which will help both of you(him with his lifting, and you if you are coaching his lifts). It has very good descriptions of proper positioning, and how to stay tight. Mark Rippetoe’s ‘Starting Strength’ might be a good addition to your library as well, since it is geared toward the beginning lifter(but can help anyone, regardless of lifting knowledge/experience).
Second the motion. Keep him on flat bench longer than the typical 3-week cycle in WS4SB. Also incorporate ‘deloading’ weeks every so often, where he will back off on the weight for his bench. As far as WS4SB III, I find better results(personally) by doing 3x8-12 of the assisstance exercise(on ME upper body day) as opposed to the 2x max reps.
What position? From my experience, bench pressing doesn’t carry over very well to football performance. Squat, deadlift, and speed/agility work yes, bench press no. In any case, don’t turn your kid into a weightroom warrior. He should be training to improve field performance, not gym performance.[/quote]
It depends on the position, he plays on the offensive and defensive line. He has a good leg workout(he does a lot of squats, deadlifts and other leg/glute work) and core workout and his legs are very strong. The workout he is doing was designed primarily for football by a highly regarded trainer…he trains high school, college, professional athletes.
It depends on the position, he plays on the offensive and defensive line. He has a good leg workout(he does a lot of squats, deadlifts and other leg/glute work) and core workout and his legs are very strong. The workout he is doing was designed primarily for football by a highly regarded trainer…he trains high school, college, professional athletes.[/quote]
I’m not doubting the program, I know Joe knows his shit. I was just thinking that maybe you were emphasizing the bench a little too much. By that, I mean don’t get your kid thinking that he absolutely has to bench big weights to be a good football player. He should know that it’s only a tool, not the be-all, end-all.
You probably already know this, I’m just saying.
Anyhow, my final answer is that it’s probably a technique problem. Read Dave Tate’s stuff on here and you should pick up enough to get him pressing 30-40 more lbs in the next month or two.