Ben Stein's 'Expelled'

The day ID produces something useful, let me know.

Evolutionary theory is used daily by biologists, researchers, scientists. It helps devise new vaccines, develop new antibiotics, is used routinely in genomic medicine, and so on. Evolution not only talks the talk, it can walk the walk.

ID, even with all the backing it’s been getting, is still nothing more than an ignorant whimper. It has advanced no domain, provided no new technique, produced no special insights.

As for the movie “Expelled!” (available on torrents now) it’s the usual bullshit religious propaganda. For all the posturing ID proponents have been making about ID being a science, the movie does all it can to tie it back to religion. If you were expecting anything new, forget it. It’s the usual “can science completely explain THIS with 100% certainty?” “Well, no, but…” “AH-HA! God did it! GOD DID IT!!!”

Yawn.

That Ben Stein is the best spokesperson they could find should tell you everything you need to know.

you realize that in biology its not evolution that is used to develop vaccines etc

evolution means going to a higher order, evolving to something more complex.

what makes bacteria/viruses etc change is the loss of genetic info, not gaining genetic info.

btw, evolution has never been observed.

[quote]rugbyhit wrote:
you realize that in biology its not evolution that is used to develop vaccines etc

evolution means going to a higher order, evolving to something more complex.

what makes bacteria/viruses etc change is the loss of genetic info, not gaining genetic info.

btw, evolution has never been observed. [/quote]

Stupidity though,has been extensively observed

you will have to explain yourself here, if you have info to the contrary

[quote]rugbyhit wrote:
you realize that in biology its not evolution that is used to develop vaccines etc

evolution means going to a higher order, evolving to something more complex.

what makes bacteria/viruses etc change is the loss of genetic info, not gaining genetic info.

btw, evolution has never been observed. [/quote]

…You’ve never taken Bio 101 have you?

macro evolution has never been observed at any biological level. if you want to incorrectly include what is often referred to as micro evolution/genetic drift, then yes this has been observed, but it not evolution in the sense that genetic information is added.

again, if you have info to the contrary, please share.

[quote]rugbyhit wrote:
you realize that in biology its not evolution that is used to develop vaccines etc[/quote]

Mechanisms and processes explained by evolution are used everyday in biology studies and research. A scientific theory is useless if it doesn’t have any predictive benefits.

No, it entails changes that render organisms of all kind better suited to their environment. It says nothing about complexity. Evolution does not work towards a goal.

Strike three. According to your logic, as time went on, bacteria and virii would have less and less genetic information (because they can only lose it, not gain it). Eventually, they’d have none at all left.

This is not the case.

Strike four. You won’t mind if my baseball rules “evolve” to better fit your ignorance of the subject matter, will you?

[quote]rugbyhit wrote:
macro evolution has never been observed at any biological level. if you want to incorrectly include what is often referred to as micro evolution/genetic drift, then yes this has been observed, but it not evolution in the sense that genetic information is added.

again, if you have info to the contrary, please share.[/quote]

[quote]pookie wrote:
rugbyhit wrote:
you realize that in biology its not evolution that is used to develop vaccines etc

Mechanisms and processes explained by evolution are used everyday in biology studies and research. A scientific theory is useless if it doesn’t have any predictive benefits.
[/quote]
please give me an example. tell me how in everyday research macro evolution is used.predictive benefits are not based on a more complex organism, it’s based on how much genetic info can be removed to render an organism sterile/destroyed

and theory is just that, theory and I’ll state it again, macro evolution has not been observed. give me an example if you are so sure that it has. show me the predictive benefits used through an evolutionary process that creates a new organisim [quote]

evolution means going to a higher order, evolving to something more complex.

No, it entails changes that render organisms of all kind better suited to their environment. It says nothing about complexity. Evolution does not work towards a goal.
[/quote]
wrong, evolution by it’s very definition predicts that as time goes on organisms become MORE complex and do work towards a goal[quote]

what makes bacteria/viruses etc change is the loss of genetic info, not gaining genetic info.

Strike three. According to your logic, as time went on, bacteria and virii would have less and less genetic information (because they can only lose it, not gain it). Eventually, they’d have none at all left.

This is not the case.

btw, evolution has never been observed.

Strike four. You won’t mind if my baseball rules “evolve” to better fit your ignorance of the subject matter, will you?

once again…where has evolution been observed?

and whats with the hostility? its just a freaking conversation. should I call you and ignorant dickhead for believing what you do, just because we disagree??

Evolution helps explain ~50% of the phenomenons observed in Biology 101. Evolution makes everything make sense.

So, even as a learning tool exclusively, evolution has more worth than ID EVER will.

Edit: And he called you ignorant because you quite obviously ARE. Anyone whose taken a basic comprehensive biology course will understand why the theory of evolution is key to biological sciences.

Everything, and I mean everything you wrote about evolution is completely wrong. Species don’t go extinct because they run out of genetic material, scientific theories are no “just theories” in the sense you think they are, etc.

I already have a full time job, so start here:

Afterwards, well, you’re an adult with internet access, right? Do your own research if you’re honestly (which I doubt) interested in learning what the Theory of Evolution (the real one, not the amusingly quaint fantasy you’ve been entertaining us with) is all about.

A few more links to help you along your way:

http://tolweb.org/tree/

If books are more your style, there’s a good list here:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/02/an_updated_book_list_for_evolu.php

You could, but you’d still be wrong.

the extinction was referring to a molecular level.

Go read them all, then come back and tell me specifically where you find ANY concrete evidence for evolution.

Many of the major fields of science were founded by Christians. This information was taken from the book Men of Science, Men of God by Henry M. Morris, Ph.D.

  1. Johann Kepler (1571-1630) was the founder of physical astronomy. Kepler wrote "Since we astronomers are priests of the highest God in regard to the book of nature, it befits us to be thoughtful, not of the glory of our minds, but rather, above all else, of the glory of God.

  2. Robert Boyle (1627-1691) is credited with being the father of modern chemistry. He also was active in financially supporting the spread of Christianity through missions and Bible translations.

  3. Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) was one of the greatest early mathematicians, laid the foundations for hydrostatics, hydrodynamics, differential calculus, and the theory of probability. To him is attributed the famous Wager of Pascal, paraphrased as follows: “How can anyone lose who chooses to be a Christian? If, when he dies, there turns out to be no God and his faith was in vain, he has lost nothing–in fact, has been happier in life than his nonbelieving friends. If, however, there is a God and a heaven and hell, then he has gained heaven and his skeptical friends will have lost everything in hell!”

  4. John Ray (1627-1705) was the father of English natural history, considered the greatest zoologist and botanist of his day. He also wrote a book, “The wisdom of God Manifested In The Works of Creation.”

  5. Nicolaus Steno (1631-1686) was the father of Stratigraphy. He believed that fossils were laid down in the strata as a result of the flood of Noah. He also wrote many theological works and late in his life took up religious orders.

  6. William Petty (1623-1687) helped found the science of statistics and the modern study of economics. He was an active defender of the Christian faith and wrote many papers sharing evidence of God’s design in nature.

  7. Isaac Newton (1642-1727) invented calculus, discovered the law of gravity and the three laws of motion, anticipated the law of energy conservation, developed the particle theory of light propagation, and invented the reflecting telescope. He firmly believed in Jesus Christ as his Savior and the Bible as God’s word, and wrote many books on these topics.

  8. Carolus Linnaeus (1707-1778) was the father of biological taxonomy. His system of classification is still in use today. One of his main goals in systematizing the varieties of living creatures was an attempt to delineate the original Genesis “kinds.” He firmly believed in the Genesis account as literal history.

  9. Michael Faraday (1791-1867) was one of the greatest physicists of all time, developed foundational concepts in electricity and magnetism, invented the electrical generator, and made many contributions to the field of chemistry. He was active in the various ministries of his church, both private and public, and had an abiding faith in the Bible and in prayer.

  10. Georges Cuvier (1769-1832) was the founder of the science of comparative anatomy and one of the chief architects of paleontology as a separate scientific discipline. He was a firm creationist, participating in some of the important creation/evolution debates of his time.

  11. Charles Babbage (1792-1871) was the founder of computer science. He developed information storage and retrieval systems, and used punched cards for instruction sets and data sets in automated industrial controls. He was also a Christian with strong convictions and wrote an important book defending the Bible and miracles.

  12. John Dalton (1766-1844) was the father of atomic theory, which revolutionized chemistry. He was an orthodox, Bible-believing Christian.

  13. Matthew Maury (1806-1873) was the founder of oceanography. He believed that when Psalm 8:8 in the Bible talked about “paths in the seas,” that there must therefore be paths in the seas. He dedicated his life to charting the winds and currents of the Atlantic and was able to confirm that the sea did indeed have paths, just as spoken of in the Bible.

  14. James Simpson (1811-1879) discovered chloroform and laid the foundation for anesthesiology. He said his motivation to perform the research leading to this discovery was a fascination in the book of Genesis with Adam’s deep sleep during the time in which Eve was fashioned from his side. He said his biggest discovery was finding Jesus Christ as Savior.

  15. James Joule (1818-1889) discovered the mechanical equivalent of heat, laying the foundation for the field of thermodynamics. Joule also had a strong Christian faith.

  16. Louis Agassiz (1807-1873) was the father of glacial geology and a great paleontologist. He believed in God and in His special creation of every kind of organism. When Darwin’s Origin began to gain favor, Agassiz spoke out strongly against it.

  17. Gregory Mendel (1822-1884) was the father of genetics. He had strong religious convictions and chose the life of a monk. He was a creationist and rejected Darwins’s ideas, even though he was familiar with them.

  18. Louis Pasteur (1822-1895) was the father of bacteriology. He established the germ theory of disease. His persistent objections to the theory of spontaneous generation and to Darwinism made him unpopular with the scientific establishment of his day. He was a Christian with extremely strong religious convictions.

  19. William Thompson, Lord Kelvin (1824-1907) is considered one of the all-time great physicists. He established thermodynamics on a formal scientific basis, providing a precise statement of the first and second laws of thermodynamics. Lord Kelvin was a strong Christian, opposing both Lyellian uniformitarianism and Darwinian evolution. In 1903, shortly before his death, he made the unequivocal statement that, “With regard to the origin of life, science…positively affirms creative power.”

  20. Joseph Lister (1827-1912) founded antiseptic surgical methods. Lister’s contributions have probably led to more lives being saved through modern medicine than the contributions of any one else except Pasteur. Like Pasteur, Lister was also a Christian and wrote, “I am a believer in the fundamental doctrines of Christianity.”

  21. Joseph Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879) developed a comprehensive theoretical and mathematical framework for electromagnetic field theory. Einstein called Maxwell’s contributions “the most profound and most fruitful that physics has experienced since the time of Newton.” Maxwell rejected the theory of evolution and wrote that God’s command to man to subdue the earth, found in the first chapter of the book of Genesis in the Bible, provided the personal motivation to him for pursuing his scientific work. He acknowledged a personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

  22. Bernhard Riemann (1826-1866) developed the concept of non-Euclidian geometry, which was used by Einstein in his development of the theory of relativity. Riemann was also a Christian and had hoped to go into the ministry until he got sidetracked by his interest in mathematics. He apparently made several efforts to prove the validity of the book of Genesis using mathematical principles.

  23. Joseph Henry Gilbert (1817-1901) was a chemist who developed the use of nitrogen and superphosphate fertilizers for farm crops and co-developed the world’s first agricultural experimental station. He thus laid the foundations for the advances in agricultural science which have provided the means for farmers to feed the large populations in the world today. Gilbert is yet another scientist with a strong faith and demonstrated this by signing the Scientist’s Declaration, in which he affirmed his faith in the Bible as the Word of God and expressed his disbelief in and opposition to Darwin’s theories.

  24. Thomas Anderson (1819-1874) was one of the initial workers in the field of organic chemistry, discovering pyridine and other organic bases. Like Gilbert, he also signed the Scientist’s Declaration, in which he affirmed his faith in the scientific accuracy of the Bible and the validity of the Christian faith.

  25. William Mitchell Ramsay (1851-1939) was among the greatest of all archeologists. He acquired “liberal” theological beliefs during his days as a university student. However, as he began to make various archaeological discoveries in Asia Minor, he began to see that archaeology confirmed the accuracy of the Bible and as a result he became converted to Christianity.

  26. John Ambrose Fleming (1849-1945) was the inventor of the Fleming valve which provided the foundation for subsequent advances in electronics. He studied under Maxwell, was a consultant to Thomas Edison, and also for Marconi. He also had very strong Christian beliefs and acted on those beliefs by helping found an organization called the “Evolution Protest Movement.” He wrote a major book against the theory of evolution.

  27. Werner Von Braun (1912-1977) was the father of space science. He wrote, .“…the vast mysteries of the universe should only confirm our belief in the certainty of its Creator. I find it as difficult to understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science.”

  28. Albert Einstein (1879-1955), formulator of the theory of relativity, which is one of the single greatest intellectual accomplishments in the history of man. Einstein was Jewish and thus did not follow in the Christian tradition of Newton or Faraday. He did not believe in a personal God, such as is revealed even in the Jewish Bible. Yet, he was overwhelmed by the order and organization of the universe and believed this demonstrated that there was a Creator.

books you can read to support my position (some are faily technical);

The Biotic Message by Walter ReMine

Body By Design by Alan Gillen

Bones of Contention by Marvin Lubenow

Darwin on Trial by Phillip Johnson

Darwin’s Black box by Michael Behe

Darwin’s Enigma by Luther Sutherland

Evolution:A Theory in Crisis by Michael Denton

In the Begining was Information by Werner Gitt

I could go on, but I’ll spare you. One other point, I was an evolutionist at one point, so I’m aware of the argument for the position, but it is flwed and has no evidence.

[quote]rugbyhit wrote:

  1. Johann Kepler (1571-1630) was the founder of physical astronomy. Kepler wrote "Since we astronomers are priests of the highest God in regard to the book of nature, it befits us to be thoughtful, not of the glory of our minds, but rather, above all else, of the glory of God.

  2. Robert Boyle (1627-1691) is credited with being the father of modern chemistry. He also was active in financially supporting the spread of Christianity through missions and Bible translations.

  3. Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) was one of the greatest early mathematicians, laid the foundations for hydrostatics, hydrodynamics, differential calculus, and the theory of probability. To him is attributed the famous Wager of Pascal, paraphrased as follows: “How can anyone lose who chooses to be a Christian? If, when he dies, there turns out to be no God and his faith was in vain, he has lost nothing–in fact, has been happier in life than his nonbelieving friends. If, however, there is a God and a heaven and hell, then he has gained heaven and his skeptical friends will have lost everything in hell!”

  4. John Ray (1627-1705) was the father of English natural history, considered the greatest zoologist and botanist of his day. He also wrote a book, “The wisdom of God Manifested In The Works of Creation.”

  5. Nicolaus Steno (1631-1686) was the father of Stratigraphy. He believed that fossils were laid down in the strata as a result of the flood of Noah. He also wrote many theological works and late in his life took up religious orders.

  6. William Petty (1623-1687) helped found the science of statistics and the modern study of economics. He was an active defender of the Christian faith and wrote many papers sharing evidence of God’s design in nature.

  7. Isaac Newton (1642-1727) invented calculus, discovered the law of gravity and the three laws of motion, anticipated the law of energy conservation, developed the particle theory of light propagation, and invented the reflecting telescope. He firmly believed in Jesus Christ as his Savior and the Bible as God’s word, and wrote many books on these topics.

  8. Carolus Linnaeus (1707-1778) was the father of biological taxonomy. His system of classification is still in use today. One of his main goals in systematizing the varieties of living creatures was an attempt to delineate the original Genesis “kinds.” He firmly believed in the Genesis account as literal history.[/quote]

Darwin published his “On the Origin of Species” in 1859…

Do I really need to point out how stupid you come across when you cite people who had been dead for decades if not centuries as “support” for your claims against evolution?

Anyway, enjoy your ignorance. It becomes you.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Evolution helps explain ~50% of the phenomenons observed in Biology 101. Evolution makes everything make sense.

So, even as a learning tool exclusively, evolution has more worth than ID EVER will.

Edit: And he called you ignorant because you quite obviously ARE. Anyone whose taken a basic comprehensive biology course will understand why the theory of evolution is key to biological sciences.[/quote]

You’ve now resorted to supporting evolution because it is a convenient explanation. Nevermind whether it is right or wrong. What is the point of a learning tool if it is incorrect?

I’d think twice before calling people ignorant.

[quote]stokedporcupine wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:

God and evolution are not mutually incompatible.

That sums it up.

well, in strict fundamental christian doctrine they are. obviously though i agree with the point in general. [/quote]

The funny thing is that Christian fundamentalism, and strictly literal readings of the Bible, are not a return to first principles at all, but a very modern phenomenon. It’s a 19th and 20th century attempt to read the Bible like a science textbook, something that was not done before. The earliest Church Fathers, from the first century AD on, read much of the Bible allegorically. Origen, for one, speculated that each “day” in Genesis could take thousands of years if not longer. “Christian fundamentalism” is often anything but.

[quote]rugbyhit wrote:

Many of the major fields of science were founded by Christians. This information was taken from the book Men of Science, Men of God by Henry M. Morris, Ph.D.

  1. Johann Kepler (1571-1630) was the founder of physical astronomy. Kepler wrote "Since we astronomers are priests of the highest God in regard to the book of nature, it befits us to be thoughtful, not of the glory of our minds, but rather, above all else, of the glory of God.[/quote]

By the way, if you’re simply going to cut and paste from creationist websites without adding anything original, why don’t you just provide the link: http://www.gilbertindependentbaptist.org/NoJava/Articles/creation/great_scientists.htm

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
stokedporcupine wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:

God and evolution are not mutually incompatible.

That sums it up.

well, in strict fundamental christian doctrine they are. obviously though i agree with the point in general.

The funny thing is that Christian fundamentalism, and strictly literal readings of the Bible, are not a return to first principles at all, but a very modern phenomenon. It’s a 19th and 20th century attempt to read the Bible like a science textbook, something that was not done before. The earliest Church Fathers, from the first century AD on, read much of the Bible allegorically. Origen, for one, speculated that each “day” in Genesis could take thousands of years if not longer. “Christian fundamentalism” is often anything but.[/quote]

Yep, I’m quite taken with the whole “Rapture” thing and all that.

Shouldn’t it be called Christian revisionism?

Does anyone have a link to the movie?

[quote]tedro wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Evolution helps explain ~50% of the phenomenons observed in Biology 101. Evolution makes everything make sense.

So, even as a learning tool exclusively, evolution has more worth than ID EVER will.

Edit: And he called you ignorant because you quite obviously ARE. Anyone whose taken a basic comprehensive biology course will understand why the theory of evolution is key to biological sciences.

You’ve now resorted to supporting evolution because it is a convenient explanation. Nevermind whether it is right or wrong. What is the point of a learning tool if it is incorrect?

I’d think twice before calling people ignorant.[/quote]

Well yes, evolution is convenient. It explains so much. That is kind of the job of theories.

The second point is also wrong, because many teaching methods in taoism or zen-buddhism make no sense in and of themselves but force you to ask yourself questions.

In other words, if a learning tool makes you learn stuff it is “correct”, i.e. serves its purpose.