Believers: What Would You Do?

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Every actual and possible object of knowledge whatsoever conclusively establishes not only that God is, but what He’s like and we are accountable to Him. Nobody can “find out” that the ultimate seminal fact upon which all else depends doesn’t exist. Even their “finding out” is itself blinding evidence that He is there. I can’t even intelligibly address this question phrased this way. I know what I’d do if I weren’t a Christian and didn’t believe if that’s what you’re asking, because I did it already.[/quote]

It’s a hypothetical question. I realize you are convinced there is a god and an afterlife, but can you answer the question as if there wasn’t?[/quote]

You are asking him what he’d do if he weren’t himself. No, he can not reasonably answer.[/quote]

Why not? People work through hypotheticals all the time. I can tell you how my life would change if I suddenly knew that there was a god and an afterlife, so why can’t you do the same in the reverse?[/quote]

Because for a believer god is who you are.

If you were an angry badger with a donkey brain, what would you do? Well, in that case, there would be an angry badger with a donkey brain, not me.

Your use of you is inappropriate in the context of your own hypothetical. You cannot ask what I would do without god and out a belief in god, because without god I am not. Or at least who I think of as self would be fundamentally erased.

That’s why there isn’t really an answer.

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
I know how the belief affected my own perceptions and my own behavior, but I’m curious how it would affect yours.

[/quote]

I’d wager the belief(s), the formative impact, still affect your behavior more than you might like to admit.[/quote]

I’m not sure why you think I would hesitate to admit the formative impact of my religious upbringing. As a psychologist with some understanding of human development, that would be dishonest.[/quote]

I apologize, sincerely. I have to admit to being pleasantly surprised. I made an assumption you wouldn’t admit to as much.

Edit: But to be clear, I’m also speaking of a bit of “just in case” calculation among agnostics and even atheists. That for different reasons, and concerning different behaviors and thoughts, certain circumstances and behaviors aren’t acceptable for, well, superstitious reasons. Almost a deepdown, inner glance to the heavans. I’m not talking about any god, or even one god. I’m talking about some deep feeling, imparted by a religious culture, that “somehow and someway, I can’t get away with this even if do. Some how, some way, regardless if I was the only person to ever know of this of my guilt, I will pay.”

In a world that never knew religion (something would have to prevent it), this ‘superstitious’ inner dialogue would never take place. So yeah, it would be a faaaaar uglier world.

Even though I do not believe or deny, I just don’t know, I have never had after my childhood the need to ask anybody what is right and what is wrong, I just know it and follow it even when people around me claim otherwise.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Every actual and possible object of knowledge whatsoever conclusively establishes not only that God is, but what He’s like and we are accountable to Him. Nobody can “find out” that the ultimate seminal fact upon which all else depends doesn’t exist. Even their “finding out” is itself blinding evidence that He is there. I can’t even intelligibly address this question phrased this way. I know what I’d do if I weren’t a Christian and didn’t believe if that’s what you’re asking, because I did it already.[/quote]

This.

I don’t think forelife believes there is no god or has even come to the realization of what a godless universe even means. [/quote]

I couldn’t with integrity believe there is no god(s), since it’s certainly possible. However, I also couldn’t with integrity dismiss the possibility of a godless universe.[/quote]

But do you understand the implications?[/quote]

Yes. I thought through all of that during my spiritual journey. It was an incredibly emotional, soul-shaking transition and I spent many nights crying over what it meant for myself and my loved ones. I fully understand why many would never even consider taking that journey.

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Every actual and possible object of knowledge whatsoever conclusively establishes not only that God is, but what He’s like and we are accountable to Him. Nobody can “find out” that the ultimate seminal fact upon which all else depends doesn’t exist. Even their “finding out” is itself blinding evidence that He is there. I can’t even intelligibly address this question phrased this way. I know what I’d do if I weren’t a Christian and didn’t believe if that’s what you’re asking, because I did it already.[/quote]

This.

I don’t think forelife believes there is no god or has even come to the realization of what a godless universe even means. [/quote]

I couldn’t with integrity believe there is no god(s), since it’s certainly possible. However, I also couldn’t with integrity dismiss the possibility of a godless universe.[/quote]

But do you understand the implications?[/quote]

Yes. I thought through all of that during my spiritual journey. It was an incredibly emotional, soul-shaking transition and I spent many nights crying over what it meant for myself and my loved ones. I fully understand why many would never even consider taking that journey.[/quote]

We’d be utterly void of any and all meaning. There would be no right, wrong, good, bad, beauty, ugly, love, pleasure, pain, est.

I also personally believe existence necessitates a god even if from a deist perspective. No, god to me means no existence.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

But I’m not asking if you think it’s possible. I’m asking what you would do if it were actually real. What if people, in this hypothetical example, were not religious by nature and there was no god or an afterlife?[/quote]

Then the world would be an ugly, ugly, place.

[/quote]

Ok, but to my questions, what would YOU do? Would you steal and even rape or kill if you knew you could get away with it? Would you spend more time with your family, knowing that the time was a far more precious commodity than you realized?

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Every actual and possible object of knowledge whatsoever conclusively establishes not only that God is, but what He’s like and we are accountable to Him. Nobody can “find out” that the ultimate seminal fact upon which all else depends doesn’t exist. Even their “finding out” is itself blinding evidence that He is there. I can’t even intelligibly address this question phrased this way. I know what I’d do if I weren’t a Christian and didn’t believe if that’s what you’re asking, because I did it already.[/quote]

It’s a hypothetical question. I realize you are convinced there is a god and an afterlife, but can you answer the question as if there wasn’t?[/quote]

You are asking him what he’d do if he weren’t himself. No, he can not reasonably answer.[/quote]

Why not? People work through hypotheticals all the time. I can tell you how my life would change if I suddenly knew that there was a god and an afterlife, so why can’t you do the same in the reverse?[/quote]

Because for a believer god is who you are.

If you were an angry badger with a donkey brain, what would you do? Well, in that case, there would be an angry badger with a donkey brain, not me.

Your use of you is inappropriate in the context of your own hypothetical. You cannot ask what I would do without god and out a belief in god, because without god I am not. Or at least who I think of as self would be fundamentally erased.

That’s why there isn’t really an answer.[/quote]

I get what you’re saying. But surely you have a deep enough sense of yourself that you know whether, for example, you would continue caring for your family even if there was no afterlife to spend with them. Is your belief in god the only deciding factor in not murdering people to steal their belongings, or would you find that repulsive even without a belief in god?

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Every actual and possible object of knowledge whatsoever conclusively establishes not only that God is, but what He’s like and we are accountable to Him. Nobody can “find out” that the ultimate seminal fact upon which all else depends doesn’t exist. Even their “finding out” is itself blinding evidence that He is there. I can’t even intelligibly address this question phrased this way. I know what I’d do if I weren’t a Christian and didn’t believe if that’s what you’re asking, because I did it already.[/quote]

It’s a hypothetical question. I realize you are convinced there is a god and an afterlife, but can you answer the question as if there wasn’t?[/quote]

You are asking him what he’d do if he weren’t himself. No, he can not reasonably answer.[/quote]

Why not? People work through hypotheticals all the time. I can tell you how my life would change if I suddenly knew that there was a god and an afterlife, so why can’t you do the same in the reverse?[/quote]

Because for a believer god is who you are.

If you were an angry badger with a donkey brain, what would you do? Well, in that case, there would be an angry badger with a donkey brain, not me.

Your use of you is inappropriate in the context of your own hypothetical. You cannot ask what I would do without god and out a belief in god, because without god I am not. Or at least who I think of as self would be fundamentally erased.

That’s why there isn’t really an answer.[/quote]

I get what you’re saying. But surely you have a deep enough sense of yourself that you know whether, for example, you would continue caring for your family even if there was no afterlife to spend with them. Is your belief in god the only deciding factor in not murdering people to steal their belongings, or would you find that repulsive even without a belief in god?[/quote]

Turning to god for strength isn’t the same as him being my reason.

You can’t just remove a vital part of a person and ask what “the person” would be like. It’s like asking what I’d do it you cut off a piece of my brain.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
I know how the belief affected my own perceptions and my own behavior, but I’m curious how it would affect yours.

[/quote]

I’d wager the belief(s), the formative impact, still affect your behavior more than you might like to admit.[/quote]

I’m not sure why you think I would hesitate to admit the formative impact of my religious upbringing. As a psychologist with some understanding of human development, that would be dishonest.[/quote]

I apologize, sincerely. I have to admit to being pleasantly surprised. I made an assumption you wouldn’t admit to as much.

Edit: But to be clear, I’m also speaking of a bit of “just in case” calculation among agnostics and even atheists. That for different reasons, and concerning different behaviors and thoughts, certain circumstances and behaviors aren’t acceptable for, well, superstitious reasons. Almost a deepdown, inner glance to the heavans. I’m not talking about any god, or even one god. I’m talking about some deep feeling, imparted by a religious culture, that “somehow and someway, I can’t get away with this even if do. Some how, some way, regardless if I was the only person to ever know of this of my guilt, I will pay.”

In a world that never knew religion (something would have to prevent it), this ‘superstitious’ inner dialogue would never take place. So yeah, it would be a faaaaar uglier world.[/quote]

I think you make a good point, but keep in mind that religion and superstition aren’t the only contributing factors to conscience. I think socialization plays a big role, and probably even genetics.

I’ve always found it interesting why some people have such severe consciences, while others have the capacity for rationalization and compartmentalization, to the point where pretty much anything goes.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
Even though I do not believe or deny, I just don’t know, I have never had after my childhood the need to ask anybody what is right and what is wrong, I just know it and follow it even when people around me claim otherwise. [/quote]

So in the hypothetical scenario, where you actually did know there wasn’t a god or an afterlife, you would still live your life as you do now?

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Every actual and possible object of knowledge whatsoever conclusively establishes not only that God is, but what He’s like and we are accountable to Him. Nobody can “find out” that the ultimate seminal fact upon which all else depends doesn’t exist. Even their “finding out” is itself blinding evidence that He is there. I can’t even intelligibly address this question phrased this way. I know what I’d do if I weren’t a Christian and didn’t believe if that’s what you’re asking, because I did it already.[/quote]

This.

I don’t think forelife believes there is no god or has even come to the realization of what a godless universe even means. [/quote]

I couldn’t with integrity believe there is no god(s), since it’s certainly possible. However, I also couldn’t with integrity dismiss the possibility of a godless universe.[/quote]

But do you understand the implications?[/quote]

Yes. I thought through all of that during my spiritual journey. It was an incredibly emotional, soul-shaking transition and I spent many nights crying over what it meant for myself and my loved ones. I fully understand why many would never even consider taking that journey.[/quote]

We’d be utterly void of any and all meaning. There would be no right, wrong, good, bad, beauty, ugly, love, pleasure, pain, est.

I also personally believe existence necessitates a god even if from a deist perspective. No, god to me means no existence.[/quote]

Sounds like you believe that in your case, if you knew there wasn’t a god or an afterlife, you would find no beauty, pleasure, or pain in the world?

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

But I’m not asking if you think it’s possible. I’m asking what you would do if it were actually real. What if people, in this hypothetical example, were not religious by nature and there was no god or an afterlife?[/quote]

Then the world would be an ugly, ugly, place.

[/quote]

Ok, but to my questions, what would YOU do? Would you steal and even rape or kill if you knew you could get away with it? Would you spend more time with your family, knowing that the time was a far more precious commodity than you realized?[/quote]

I don’t know. It would be such a dramatically different me, in such a dramatically different world. See my comment about owning slaves. Here I am today, looking at the slave trade as some kind of alien concept. Yet, had I been in that culture…

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Every actual and possible object of knowledge whatsoever conclusively establishes not only that God is, but what He’s like and we are accountable to Him. Nobody can “find out” that the ultimate seminal fact upon which all else depends doesn’t exist. Even their “finding out” is itself blinding evidence that He is there. I can’t even intelligibly address this question phrased this way. I know what I’d do if I weren’t a Christian and didn’t believe if that’s what you’re asking, because I did it already.[/quote]

This.

I don’t think forelife believes there is no god or has even come to the realization of what a godless universe even means. [/quote]

I couldn’t with integrity believe there is no god(s), since it’s certainly possible. However, I also couldn’t with integrity dismiss the possibility of a godless universe.[/quote]

But do you understand the implications?[/quote]

Yes. I thought through all of that during my spiritual journey. It was an incredibly emotional, soul-shaking transition and I spent many nights crying over what it meant for myself and my loved ones. I fully understand why many would never even consider taking that journey.[/quote]

We’d be utterly void of any and all meaning. There would be no right, wrong, good, bad, beauty, ugly, love, pleasure, pain, est.

I also personally believe existence necessitates a god even if from a deist perspective. No, god to me means no existence.[/quote]

Sounds like you believe that in your case, if you knew there wasn’t a god or an afterlife, you would find no beauty, pleasure, or pain in the world?
[/quote]

If you are insinuating that I could create my own worth, then you are asking me what I would do if I thought I were god, and you said there was no god.

I mean, I make claims about the absolute evil of, say, rape.

In a world of zero religious sensibility, this claim wouldn’t be made at all. It couldn’t be. It’s a claim from supernatural/superstitious belief. There is no telecscope fixed on the middle of the universe, where some monolith with the laws of good and evil fixed on it’s surface. Besides, that would scream out the existence of some intelligence. There’s no calculus that can discover what is absolutely good and evil. I’ve yet to discover the morality of rape in a biology textbook. Etc.

Now take your hypothetical world, one with zero religious inclination. Not even just organized religion. No, not even that superstitious itching at the very back of the mind, suggesting that something in the universe is keeping watch. Imagine trying to start civilization.

Saying rape is evil in a completely non-religious world is pointless. Someone else would say hogwash, the strong and clever take what they please. That’s what’s good in life. Niether is right or wrong. Let me state that plainly, it is a fact that raping is no less or no more evil than not raping, without introducing superstitious/supernatural belief (even if only deep down, without admitting it). Beliefs either way would just be that, beliefs. But not only that, they’d be beliefs without any real oomph. “I believe rape is evil. Why? Because that’s how I feel. But, I do realize that in reality, evil, doesn’t exist.” Is that really the founding language of ordered human civilization?

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
Even though I do not believe or deny, I just don’t know, I have never had after my childhood the need to ask anybody what is right and what is wrong, I just know it and follow it even when people around me claim otherwise. [/quote]

So in the hypothetical scenario, where you actually did know there wasn’t a god or an afterlife, you would still live your life as you do now?[/quote]

I would rather ask what if monotheism wouldn’t ever had overrun older nature religions, which were more like whole cosmologies. Would this question be at all possible without monotheism?
Superficially and without much thought I would say yes, I would live my life as now, but when thinking it from a psychological angle one one hand and from a cultural on another, I’m stopped by the thought that to be able to even ask such a question I must know monotheism of some sort, mustn’t I?

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

…I would rather ask what if monotheism wouldn’t ever had overrun older nature religions…[/quote]

What makes you think monotheism is younger then polytheism and pantheism?[/quote]

Well, since I swallow evolution hook, line and sinker it comes natural. We could argue about it, but it would really be futile so please just accept it as my opinion.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s a fine topic. I like killing time on a hypothetical as much as the next guy. But it’s one I honestly don’t feel I can answer with regards to myself alone. I can see thinking about it on a much larger scale, but I can’t honestly answer about myself.

If you’ll permit me on more time to bring up the slave trade. I simply can’t say, beyond a doub,t that I wouldn’t support it or be involved in it, if I was suddenly a man of that place and time. The me now, would LIKE to think not. But I’m well aware that any opinion of myself is colored by what I know/believe today. And try as I might, I can’t silence this.