T Nation

Beginner Advice, Critique

Hey guys. Feels very strange doing this as I am one of the more dedicated helpers on the bb.com nut forum, so after advising so many people to read the stickies, I’ve been thrown back into the realm of dealing with unfamiliar measurements and words for the first time again.

Anyhow, I’ve read Cy’s Steroids for Dummies, the Steroid Newbie sticky and The Newbie Cycling sticky.

I am looking to use a moderate amount for my first cycle for 10-12 weeks.

  • Test Enth 250-500mg per week with…
  • Stanozolol 50mg per week.

Stats: 5ft11, 180lbs, ~9%bf, ~5 years lifting, 25 years old.

Another question: the side effects listed in Cy’s Steroids for Dummies, are they likely / unlikely / possible to occur without abuse of steroids or possible on first cycle? Naive question I know.

EDIT - I’m using the Test E for strength and muscle mass purposes and coupling that with Stanozolol viewing it as a compound muscle builder and the prevention of muscle breakdown. Is this the correct thought process and choice of steroids for gaining mass.

Tried to edit this in but wouldn’t work.

Test e is for hypertrophy and strength gains overall and coupling with Stanozolol is as a compound builder and to prevent tissue breakdown. Is this the right thought process for someone trying to gain more mass first time round?

There’s a big difference between 250 and 500mg of test a week. For your first cycle most people would suggest just Test, 500mg/wk and and AI along with it at .25mg EOD, bump to .5mg if gyno seems be to settling in.

Why on earth would you put winny in a “mass cycle” especially to “prevent muscle breakdown”…

[quote]lbraga wrote:
There’s a big difference between 250 and 500mg of test a week. For your first cycle most people would suggest just Test, 500mg/wk and and AI along with it at .25mg EOD, bump to .5mg if gyno seems be to settling in.

[/quote]

Thanks man.

The reason I put 250-500 was because I was unsure which to go with if coupling with stanzolol. Your info has helped with that. The reason I was thinking 250 was because in Cy’s article he said there’s 2 camps. The 1st being more aggressive with the test because you’ll make your best gains on 1st cycle, when I was leaning to the 2nd camp which suggests a lower dose to start which he agreed with as there’s less chance of anything going wrong.

Is an amount like 500mg in the 1st camp, 2nd camp? Does it really matter in terms of safety?

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
Why on earth would you put winny in a “mass cycle” especially to “prevent muscle breakdown”…

[/quote]

After reading about each individually in the sticky and then seeing it as a recommended first cycle in there, using test e with it seemed to make sense to me.

Call me as stupid as u like, I can be (too) hard on noobs with nutrition at bb.com at times so I understand where you’d be coming from if u also felt that way with my thought process :slight_smile:

To me, using test e with something (according to what I’ve read) that specialises in the prevention of tissue breakdown makes sense to me.

By tissue breakdown, I didn’t think it was referring to breaking down to aid hypertrophy through a calorie surplus. I thought it was because maybe there was a chance of muscle atrophy from the power of the test e and the stanzolol would prevent that. That was my thought process. Thanks for the help!

I ran an identical cycle for my first cycle… I’m starting my PCT in a couple days from it actually.

Wk 1: 750 mg/wk Test E (500 mg frontload 1st injection, 250 mg 2nd injection)
Wk 2-12: 500 mg/wk Test E (pinned twice weekly)
Wk 9-14: 50 mg/day winstrol
Wk 15-18: 40/40/20/20 nolva protocol

I started off with 0.25mg adex eod, then went to 0.5mg eod when i felt a little bitch of tingling in my nipples (this might be a little high, but I’m gyno prone so it worked for me. No signs of low E2).

I loved this cycle, especially for a first one. No real sides that the Adex didn’t deal with quickly and very minimal joint pain from the winny. I gained roughly 10-15 lbs LBM, dropped maybe 2% bf. Fairly clean diet, but still ate dirt every couple of days to try and get even more of a caloric surplus.

Only thing I’d change is frontloading the first week or 2 with test prop. I didn’t really feel the test E kick in until week 3 or so.

Let me know if you have any specific questions

Why not run dbol if your looking for a mass cycle

[quote]PulsedEE wrote:
I ran an identical cycle for my first cycle… I’m starting my PCT in a couple days from it actually.

Wk 1: 750 mg/wk Test E (500 mg frontload 1st injection, 250 mg 2nd injection)
Wk 2-12: 500 mg/wk Test E (pinned twice weekly)
Wk 9-14: 50 mg/day winstrol
Wk 15-18: 40/40/20/20 nolva protocol

I started off with 0.25mg adex eod, then went to 0.5mg eod when i felt a little bitch of tingling in my nipples (this might be a little high, but I’m gyno prone so it worked for me. No signs of low E2).

I loved this cycle, especially for a first one. No real sides that the Adex didn’t deal with quickly and very minimal joint pain from the winny. I gained roughly 10-15 lbs LBM, dropped maybe 2% bf. Fairly clean diet, but still ate dirt every couple of days to try and get even more of a caloric surplus.

Only thing I’d change is frontloading the first week or 2 with test prop. I didn’t really feel the test E kick in until week 3 or so.

Let me know if you have any specific questions[/quote]

Thanks! So you’d swap the test e for test prop instead, simply because that would have worked quicker? Even though the end result would probably be roughly the same? Sort of like the equivalent of loading and not loading creatine.

Can you simply split the injections in half? So if I wanna use 500mg every week, just 250 at each end of the week?

Why would winstrol be a bad thing as has been implied by a poster above?

And the eod is necessary also then?

Thank you very much.

[quote]BUDs wrote:
Why not run dbol if your looking for a mass cycle[/quote]

Would that be more effective?

Why have you advised that over test e?

And another question for all, is clomid advised / necessary for the sack?

[quote]Pharlay wrote:
And another question for all, is clomid advised / necessary for the sack?[/quote]

Dude its cool, but go back and read up(Stickys) on each steroid profiles and what they are used for. Also read about PCT, what to use and when to use. Find out why dbol is a mass builder and why winny is not? Why a test only 1st cycle is recommended? Do some research, post a new improved cycle plan and I guarantee it will be better received than this one.

All im saying is by your line of questions you need to study up a bit and then we can help.

Peace

[quote]tattoo’d’popeye wrote:

[quote]Pharlay wrote:
And another question for all, is clomid advised / necessary for the sack?[/quote]

Dude its cool, but go back and read up(Stickys) on each steroid profiles and what they are used for. Also read about PCT, what to use and when to use. Find out why dbol is a mass builder and why winny is not? Why a test only 1st cycle is recommended? Do some research, post a new improved cycle plan and I guarantee it will be better received than this one.

All im saying is by your line of questions you need to study up a bit and then we can help.

Peace[/quote]

Thanks.

I’ve read each individually and understand why dbol is a mass builder and why winny is not. I was asking the comparison between dbol and test e :slight_smile:

And the reason I queried why a test only first cycle was because in the stickys, that isn’t one of the recommendations. Also I wanted to use winny with it because of what I put earlier on how I perceive it works, and that made sense to me in coupling it with test. That’s how I interpreted the description of winny in the sticky anyhow. Am I wrong?

He wasnt implying dbol over test. Test is a must and the base of your cycle, he was saying use dbol instead of winny for better mass and strength gains. You would enjoy the dbol alot more. Just saying your 5’11" at 180lbs you dont need winny you need a mass building cycle. I think we just misunderstood one another for a minute, lol

[quote]tattoo’d’popeye wrote:
He wasnt implying dbol over test. Test is a must and the base of your cycle, he was saying use dbol instead of winny for better mass and strength gains. You would enjoy the dbol alot more. Just saying your 5’11" at 180lbs you dont need winny you need a mass building cycle. I think we just misunderstood one another for a minute, lol[/quote]

Ahhhhh I see. The one thing I can’t get from that sticky is real experiences with specific cycles, for specific people and the true potential of those cycles for the person.

I do need a proper mass building cycle, I’m not looking to put on anymore than 15lbs in general.

From the sticky, it seemed to me that test would have been enough as a mass builder and coupling it with dbol may be too much. Again, that’s how I made sense of it in my head after reading anyhow :slight_smile: as I said, it’s difficult to interpret the true potential / likely outcome of a specific cycle and coupling of steroids by reading about them individually.

Updated cycle

Weeks 1-12: 250mg test e E3D
Weeks 1-4: Dbol 10mg, 3 times per day
Weeks 1-12: Adex 0.25mg EOD

PCT
W 13 Nolva 20mg 2x/d
W 14-16 Nolva 20mg/d

After more searches, and from above advice, I’m curious as to whether to switch test e for prop?

Also I see varying opinions on whether to use Adex from the beginning? And shall I bring in 20mg of nolva per day if I start experiencing itches?

Depends man, your going to have to see how you react. Me personally I dont get any sides until Im over a gram of test a week. You maybe more/less prone than others. I still run adex cause my face swells up like a tick from water wieght.

As long as your intaking enough good foods on this cycle you should be able to easily keep 15lbs of lean body mass after pct. Dont be suprised if you gain 20-25lbs on the first run.

Are you going to frontload your Test?

[quote]tattoo’d’popeye wrote:
Depends man, your going to have to see how you react. Me personally I dont get any sides until Im over a gram of test a week. You maybe more/less prone than others. I still run adex cause my face swells up like a tick from water wieght.

As long as your intaking enough good foods on this cycle you should be able to easily keep 15lbs of lean body mass after pct. Dont be suprised if you gain 20-25lbs on the first run.

Are you going to frontload your Test?[/quote]

I wasn’t going to so there’s less chance of something going wrong. But is that not something to really worry about?

As I said before, I’m one of the more dedicated helpers over at bb.com nutrition forum, so my cals and macros are always correct and hit. I get sufficient micros and also eat chocolate and ice cream and any other treats once I’ve hit my macro and micro needs.

I also drink twice a week on the weekend. I will take liver tablets I think seeing as it will be taxed more.

[quote]Pharlay wrote:
Updated cycle

Weeks 1-12: 250mg test e E3D
Weeks 1-4: Dbol 10mg, 3 times per day
Weeks 1-12: Adex 0.25mg EOD

PCT
W 13 Nolva 20mg 2x/d
W 14-16 Nolva 20mg/d

After more searches, and from above advice, I’m curious as to whether to switch test e for prop?

Also I see varying opinions on whether to use Adex from the beginning? And shall I bring in 20mg of nolva per day if I start experiencing itches?[/quote]

Your cycle looks good you will get good gains from this. Only thing is your pct start time is wrong, if your running 12 weeks of test you want to start 2 weeks after your last pin. I would also run the adex from the start of the cycle right up until pct.

Now adex is different for everyone so you will need to adjust the dose need be, but .25 EOD is a good starting point. It will also help with the bloat that comes along with the test and dbol. Having Nolva on hand is a wise choice if symptoms do appear.

Regarding the choice to switch to test p I think he was saying to use the test p the first 3 weeks or so while still injecting the test e. Reasons being that test e takes a few weeks to Kick in so if using test p you’ll start seeing gains sooner then if you didn’t use it. So basically you would shoot the test e and test p.

The reason I recommended dbol over winny is it better as an overall mass builder and if that’s your goal I would go with that but if you want to use winny by all means go ahead.