T Nation

Beating A Hormonal Saliva Test


#1

My doctor will continue prescribing me testosterone as long as my levels are low. The problem is my natural levels are not low.

He only does take-home saliva tests every 3 months so I'm looking to keep the results of those numbers low. I tried to mix 85% of my girlfriend's saliva with 15% mine. This didn't work and gave a result of testosterone level over 600 and a high estrogen level.

What other way can I manipulate the numbers without having to take saliva from a little kid or an old man, or suppressing my own levels for the test? Surely there is something I can add to the saliva that will lower the numbers.

Thanks


#2

Aren’t you supposed to be using Test? If so then your numbers should be normal/high.

Why would he be looking for low numbers seeing as he is prescribing a drug that increases these numbers to regular levels??


#3

[quote] Brook wrote:
Aren’t you supposed to be using Test? If so then your numbers should be normal/high.

Why would he be looking for low numbers seeing as he is prescribing a drug that increases these numbers to regular levels??[/quote]

My thoughts exactly.

Hes giving you TAKE HOME tests, you could easily fake those, but not with your girlfriends spit, that made me laugh out loud, but you have already figured out why.

But your test should be normal, if you keep coming back with a take home test that shows you as being low no matter how high he doses you, hes going to get suspicious and your going to lose everything.


#4

Yeah, that’s hilarious. I laughed out loud when he still gave me another injection the same day of looking at the results. If you knew the intelligence level of this doctor then I’m sure you would understand. He doesn’t care about progesterone or estrogen levels, only how high my testosterone levels are. He is a ‘feel good’ anti-aging doctor from India! He obviously only wants justification to ding my insurance.

The amount he’s giving me won’t be enough to raise my levels to anything significant, BUT my natural levels are already too high according to doctors. He even made the comment, “If your numbers remain low then we are going to have to increase the dose amount and frequency”.

I have two options:

  1. Give him my actual saliva and have him stop or cut back on my free HCG and test injections.

  2. Manipulate the numbers and keep getting increases in amount and frequency.

My question was: How do I manipulate the numbers of the take-home saliva test? That’s all I need to know, I will worry about ‘ruining’ my chances.


#5
  1. You don’t want to take saliva from a pre-pubertal kid

  2. You don’t want to take saliva from an old man

  3. It didn’t work so well using your girfriend’ saliva

You’re not leaving a lot of options for anyone to work with are you?

Only thing I can think of that remains is diluting with water, which obviously would cut your values proportionately across the board, but I don’t know if the folk that run the analysis would pick this up or not. For example it could be that saliva is pretty much always within a given viscosity range and they actually measure this to detect possible water-diluters.

If you know what lab does the analysis, for example ZRT, you could buy your own kit and do a trial run.


#6

Let’s be real about this here. You can’t fool this doc enough times to get him to prescribe more and more test if your levels aren’t low. He will figure it out eventually, period. You’re going to have to come back with a normal result sooner or later as proof that the TRT is working so he can solidify your dose. If he keeps giving you more and more and thinks your body isn’t responding, you’re going to end up in a mess of other tests you won’t get out of easily.

And why were you ever started on test injections when your natural levels are “too high”?


#7

Too high for medical standards, not for bodybuilding standards.

That’s why my intent was to gradually increase the amount of test in my saliva, but this is appearing to be more difficult than assumed.

His nurse explained it like this…as long as my levels are low he will continue increasing the injections, this is what gives him justification to show the insurance companies and saves his ass. I’m sure he realizes that I’m yanking his chain, but honestly, he doesn’t seem to care. Therefore, I will exploit the hell out of it and get free testosterone and HCG. Why not?

I also have a regular doctor that will schedule me blood tests any time I want.

I guess there’s no magical solution for suppressing the levels in the saliva tube.


#8

Why don’t you get a regular prescription from him, order online from companies that sell without prescriptions… with a photocopy (something they don’t need, BUT can send with the package making customs happy with the law…) supplied to them so they can return it with your order.

Other than that, i think you are very ignorant in your endeavours mate… if you honestly think that you will get an indefinite increase of Test OR you will get 500+mg a week… then you are mistaken.

For one, if the doctor is dodgy… fine - but everyone who deals with the script would have to be… including the pharmacist and your rep at the insurance company…


#9

I like the idea about the online prescription, I’ll look into it.

They do in-house injections, so no pharmacist is involved. As you read above, the nurse could care less.

This guy has been in business locally with anti-aging since 1983 and has absolutely no cases in the court system against him (I checked).

So far it’s working like a charm so I will see how long I can ride the wave. I truly think he wants to give me the amount I want, so time will tell.

Thanks for the advice.


#10

That’s a good suggestion for a online script but insurance won’t pay for it. Additionally I was
thinking you could have online prescriptions from multiple sources. But like I said insurance
won’t pay.


#11

this seems like a shitload of hoops your making yourself hump through just to get some test,would it not be worlds easier (and cheaper) just to order it online ?


#12

If you can get one of your mates spit, get a shitload of it and freeze it lol


#13

[quote]ironmiketyson wrote:
this seems like a shitload of hoops your making yourself hump through just to get some test,would it not be worlds easier (and cheaper) just to order it online ?[/quote]

Lol, this is what I am thinking.


#14

Army Stud - contrary to the popular opinion in this thread I agree with your logic. In theory, you should be able to dilute your saliva considerably at first, let him increase your injections (quantity and frequency) and then dilute it less and less with each assay until you have reached a level of T injections that you are happy with. Then keep the dilutions constant. That way, according to the assays he will think that he has succeeded in reaching a normal physiological level of T according to your saliva, but the results are actually being skewed consistently lower than your actual T levels.

I would do the same thing. The advantage is that the T would be pharmaceutical grade and free. Worth the hoops IMO.

One problem with this scenario however is that it could be difficult for you play this game. I mean - trying to find the right level of dilution of your saliva to achieve a happy level of injections could be difficult unless you are seeing your results and there is a direct linear correlation between the dilution and the assay result.

Second problem is back to your original question - what to use to dilute the saliva. I’m with JDSoFla here. Get a shit load of saliva off a clean buddy and use it.

I am far from an expert and I am not familiar with the saliva assay so just take this as my ignorant opinion (though it does seem sound)!


#15

Hey what is this docs name and ### lol.


#16

[quote]DieSucka wrote:
Army Stud - contrary to the popular opinion in this thread I agree with your logic. In theory, you should be able to dilute your saliva considerably at first, let him increase your injections (quantity and frequency) and then dilute it less and less with each assay until you have reached a level of T injections that you are happy with. Then keep the dilutions constant. That way, according to the assays he will think that he has succeeded in reaching a normal physiological level of T according to your saliva, but the results are actually being skewed consistently lower than your actual T levels.

I would do the same thing. The advantage is that the T would be pharmaceutical grade and free. Worth the hoops IMO.

One problem with this scenario however is that it could be difficult for you play this game. I mean - trying to find the right level of dilution of your saliva to achieve a happy level of injections could be difficult unless you are seeing your results and there is a direct linear correlation between the dilution and the assay result.

Second problem is back to your original question - what to use to dilute the saliva. I’m with JDSoFla here. Get a shit load of saliva off a clean buddy and use it.

I am far from an expert and I am not familiar with the saliva assay so just take this as my ignorant opinion (though it does seem sound)!
[/quote]

So when ‘diluting’ your saliva with water the ONLY metabolites diluted are those that indicate Testosterone… all other hormones and gonadotrophins are unaffected right?


#17

[quote]J-J wrote:

So when ‘diluting’ your saliva with water the ONLY metabolites diluted are those that indicate Testosterone… all other hormones and gonadotrophins are unaffected right?[/quote]

Did I say water?


#18

[quote]DieSucka wrote:
J-J wrote:

So when ‘diluting’ your saliva with water the ONLY metabolites diluted are those that indicate Testosterone… all other hormones and gonadotrophins are unaffected right?

Did I say water?[/quote]

What then? What would you dilute it with that would ONLY reduce the level of testosterone to the level that the doctor is looking for, while having the correct E2 balance and no LH/FSH?


#19

Alright, get your skinniest, wimpiest, lowest-T friend and drop him a coin or two to spit in a cup for you.
Problem solved.


#20

Wow - you really are an asswipe.

I think you are so busy trying to come across as a hardass that you don’t even take the time to digest any information anymore before commenting on it. You should try to get back to your roots (if you were ever there) and read and contribute.

If you dilute with water, the concentration of all of the analytes in the saliva will drop proportionately. If you dilute with saliva, only the T levels will drop with all other analyte concentrations being maintained (within reason for our purposes) because they are contained within the saliva of his buddy. So no - not WITH ANYTHING! fool.

[quote]J-J wrote:
DieSucka wrote:
J-J wrote:

So when ‘diluting’ your saliva with water the ONLY metabolites diluted are those that indicate Testosterone… all other hormones and gonadotrophins are unaffected right?

Did I say water?

WITH ANYTHING! fool.[/quote]