[quote]The Mage wrote:
rsg wrote:
Sepulnation wrote:
…Even a 200+ bodybuilder does not need or is not able to utlilize more than 30g of protein at a time, provided he’s not building muscle synthetically, a.k.a steroids.
Where did you get that info from?
Very old myth that does not seem to die. But the grams quoted keeps changing depending on who is spreading the myth.[/quote]
No doubt, I’ve heard people tell me it’s 40g protein per day.
The idea of PWO carbs is to replenish glycogen and spike insulin.
With BCAA you get the same insulin spike to block off cortisol levels and to provide a catalyst for feeding the muscles with your PWO protein for protein synthesis without replenishing your glycogen to remain in a ketosis.
If you’re goal is fatloss then carbs should be avoided till you’re refeed, if not the whole concept of the diet will be pointless.
[quote]weib wrote:
The idea of PWO carbs is to replenish glycogen and spike insulin.
With BCAA you get the same insulin spike to block off cortisol levels and to provide a catalyst for feeding the muscles with your PWO protein for protein synthesis without replenishing your glycogen to remain in a ketosis.
If you’re goal is fatloss then carbs should be avoided till you’re refeed, if not the whole concept of the diet will be pointless.
[/quote]
This type of diet has a weekly refeed - Ill wait till then.
At the moment my workout nutrition is very simple:
PRE:
10g bcaa
5g creatine
1 scoop whey concentrate
POST:
10g bcaa
2-3 scoops whey concentrate
I guess I could always drop some of the pre bcaa’s - say 5g - and dump them in the post… what would people say would be the better protocol? Would 5g + 1 scoop whey pre workout be enough to help prevent any catabolism? Would 15g bcaa even be enough to cause a noticeable spike?
If you are eating right, and have sufficient insulin sensitivity, then a post workout drink should not negatively effect fat loss. It would simply replenish glycogen in the muscles, and help recovery.
This is assuming you have trained hard enough.
And I would not worry about any insulin boost from BCAA, nor its conversion to glucose. It isn’t that significant.
[quote]The Mage wrote:
If you are eating right, and have sufficient insulin sensitivity, then a post workout drink should not negatively effect fat loss. It would simply replenish glycogen in the muscles, and help recovery.
This is assuming you have trained hard enough.
And I would not worry about any insulin boost from BCAA, nor its conversion to glucose. It isn’t that significant.[/quote]
Im still concerned about coming out of ketosis =/
[quote]laroyal wrote:
If you are on a low carb diet skip on the post workout carbs in favor of :50-60 grams of whey isolate, 10 grams of glycine, and 20-60 grams of glutamine (the last amino being a function of your budget.) Build up to the ideal glycine dose starting low to guage individual tolerance or you WILL get NAUTIOUS!! Good luck!!
[/quote]
So no BCAA’s post workout? I usually have them during my workout mixed in crystal light (since they’re so bitter). I do add 10g or so BCAA postworkout sometimes.
Also, is mixing a splenda or two in the PWO drink going to spike insulin or have any negative affect?
I think i’m the only one that started with 15g glycine the first time I ever had it with no nausea =)
[quote]benmoore wrote:
Im still concerned about coming out of ketosis =/
[/quote]
Don’t worry about it. Ketosis is overrated anyway. Ketosis does not matter if your in a muscle burning state. A post workout drink is designed to stop catabolism, and return you to an anabolic state.
If your seriously worried, just try it for a couple of weeks, and compare the results to the previous weeks.
I don’t think so.
[quote]The Mage wrote:
benmoore wrote:
Im still concerned about coming out of ketosis =/
Don’t worry about it. Ketosis is overrated anyway. Ketosis does not matter if your in a muscle burning state. A post workout drink is designed to stop catabolism, and return you to an anabolic state.
If your seriously worried, just try it for a couple of weeks, and compare the results to the previous weeks.
[/quote]
How about a smaller amount:
15g bcaa’s
2 scoops whey concentrate
10g maltodextrin
10g dextrose
?
[quote]benmoore wrote:
The Mage wrote:
benmoore wrote:
Im still concerned about coming out of ketosis =/
Don’t worry about it. Ketosis is overrated anyway. Ketosis does not matter if your in a muscle burning state. A post workout drink is designed to stop catabolism, and return you to an anabolic state.
If your seriously worried, just try it for a couple of weeks, and compare the results to the previous weeks.
How about a smaller amount:
15g bcaa’s
2 scoops whey concentrate
10g maltodextrin
10g dextrose
?[/quote]
No, why would you use any carb powder/supplements on a low carb diet and if you are going to use bcaa’s during w/o you need to take the full amount. This is when they are MOST effective! Finally, I don’t understand why you would choose whey concentrate? or why you would use whey DURING your w/o in the first place. I like that you are thinking but, this is simply wrong. I will say if you are NOT concerned with a low carb approach then malt/ and dex are good post workout choices but in that case I would go less protein more carbs, leave the extra bcaa’s out, they are for DURING and add in glutamine. Good Luck!
[quote]nycsoccax wrote:
laroyal wrote:
If you are on a low carb diet skip on the post workout carbs in favor of :50-60 grams of whey isolate, 10 grams of glycine, and 20-60 grams of glutamine (the last amino being a function of your budget.) Build up to the ideal glycine dose starting low to guage individual tolerance or you WILL get NAUTIOUS!! Good luck!!
So no BCAA’s post workout? I usually have them during my workout mixed in crystal light (since they’re so bitter). I do add 10g or so BCAA postworkout sometimes.
Also, is mixing a splenda or two in the PWO drink going to spike insulin or have any negative affect?
I think i’m the only one that started with 15g glycine the first time I ever had it with no nausea =)
[/quote]
A couple of splendas would not hurt per sey but personally I would do it without them. You are lucky about the glycine and should find piece of mind in knowing that this is an indicator o good liver health. BCAA’s DURING workout!
[quote]laroyal wrote:
benmoore wrote:
The Mage wrote:
benmoore wrote:
Im still concerned about coming out of ketosis =/
Don’t worry about it. Ketosis is overrated anyway. Ketosis does not matter if your in a muscle burning state. A post workout drink is designed to stop catabolism, and return you to an anabolic state.
If your seriously worried, just try it for a couple of weeks, and compare the results to the previous weeks.
How about a smaller amount:
15g bcaa’s
2 scoops whey concentrate
10g maltodextrin
10g dextrose
?
No, why would you use any carb powder/supplements on a low carb diet and if you are going to use bcaa’s during w/o you need to take the full amount. This is when they are MOST effective! Finally, I don’t understand why you would choose whey concentrate? or why you would use whey DURING your w/o in the first place. I like that you are thinking but, this is simply wrong. I will say if you are NOT concerned with a low carb approach then malt/ and dex are good post workout choices but in that case I would go less protein more carbs, leave the extra bcaa’s out, they are for DURING and add in glutamine. Good Luck![/quote]
Im going to have to spend a lot of money arent I? 
No, I would just use the BCAA’s during your workout and, for now take the whey you have post workout. It won’t make a HUGE difference, mostly it is important to train hard and eat well, all the workout stuff helps but remember it is just a SUPPLEMENT and there is no substitute for good food, hard training and rest. When you run out of supplements check out ntesupplements.com they have pretty good prices or trueprotein.com both sources are reasonable but for now, use what you have and focus on the three BIG THINGS listed above. Good luck.
[quote]benmoore wrote:
The Mage wrote:
If you are eating right, and have sufficient insulin sensitivity, then a post workout drink should not negatively effect fat loss. It would simply replenish glycogen in the muscles, and help recovery.
This is assuming you have trained hard enough.
And I would not worry about any insulin boost from BCAA, nor its conversion to glucose. It isn’t that significant.
Im still concerned about coming out of ketosis =/
[/quote]
unless you’re consuming over 75 g of carbs a day, you should still be good…
however, the simple way for you to figure this out is to go and buy some ketostix. that’s it.
[quote]laroyal wrote:
No, I would just use the BCAA’s during your workout and, for now take the whey you have post workout. It won’t make a HUGE difference, mostly it is important to train hard and eat well, all the workout stuff helps but remember it is just a SUPPLEMENT and there is no substitute for good food, hard training and rest.
When you run out of supplements check out ntesupplements.com they have pretty good prices or trueprotein.com both sources are reasonable but for now, use what you have and focus on the three BIG THINGS listed above. Good luck.[/quote]
Cheers buddy.
One thing though… if you are using a large dose of bcaa’s/possibly some glutamine… could you not use a small dose of maltodextrin/dextrose to encourage the insulin spike?
Im not talking a mega dose… just 10-20g total carb powder.
I mentioned this earlier but someone pounced on the concept of a carb powder being used is retarded full stop on a low carb diet.
Surely protein+bcaa+glutamine+15g maltodextrin will have less of an affect on ketosis then protein+bcaa+50g maltodextrin whilst still causing a greater insulin response then protein+bcaa+glutamine alone?
Just a thought.
You could do this but, it would really not be of any benefit. Leucine on its own will solicit enough of an insulin response and give enough of a boost in insulin sensitivity that you just plain don’t need the carbs. 10-15 grams will barely cause much in the way of insulin response anyways.
It is not only the type of carb but the amount and what you are digesting with it that effects its insulin response. The BCAA’s are good on their own during the workout and the leucine primes you to absorb protein postworkout.
Glutamine is for repair tae that with the whey (whey as well solicits enough of an insulin response) people grossly OVERESTIMATE the importance of the postworkout insulin response. I am not anti insulin but it is important to understand how it works and when it is most beneficial.
[quote]benmoore wrote:
laroyal wrote:
No, I would just use the BCAA’s during your workout and, for now take the whey you have post workout. It won’t make a HUGE difference, mostly it is important to train hard and eat well, all the workout stuff helps but remember it is just a SUPPLEMENT and there is no substitute for good food, hard training and rest.
When you run out of supplements check out ntesupplements.com they have pretty good prices or trueprotein.com both sources are reasonable but for now, use what you have and focus on the three BIG THINGS listed above. Good luck.
Cheers buddy.
One thing though… if you are using a large dose of bcaa’s/possibly some glutamine… could you not use a small dose of maltodextrin/dextrose to encourage the insulin spike?
Im not talking a mega dose… just 10-20g total carb powder.
I mentioned this earlier but someone pounced on the concept of a carb powder being used is retarded full stop on a low carb diet.
Surely protein+bcaa+glutamine+15g maltodextrin will have less of an affect on ketosis then protein+bcaa+50g maltodextrin whilst still causing a greater insulin response then protein+bcaa+glutamine alone?
Just a thought.[/quote]
seriously, you’ve got a lot of ideas, but the best answer for you is to try them out. go buy some ketostix, which are used to see if you’re in ketosis (you pee on them and they indicate the level of ketones in your urine). use them to test your theory…
Having been following a diet similar to the anabolic diet (5 day low carb, 2 day carb loading) for a few weeks, I have to say that taking BCAA, whey & glutamine before and after training (plus enzyme tablets), is helping me to revover just as quickly as using the carb/whey protocol.
Just went shoppinng on myprotein.co.uk… their online customiser has let me make a custom keto pwo formula… each 90g serving has…
50g whey isolate
25g glutamine
15g leucine
Bought 2kg of the stuff for about 40 quid 
Also picked up ANOTHER box of bcaa’s so I will have enough for 5g pre and 20g during very easily.
AND some ZMA just to squeeze out every little bit of recovery juice I can =]
Im fairly happy now - I think Ill start having a look at bcaa protocol for throughout the day/evening.
Once ive finished this diet I’ll write it all up formally and present it as a protocol… Im feeling megadosing bcaa’s and fish oils - 50g each… rubs chin xD
If you’re ever interested, let me know cause I make up a wicked PWO formula from those guys.