T Nation

BB Rows

[quote]apwsearch wrote:
elliotnewman1 wrote:
Hanley wrote:
I think that alot of the time he talks out of his arse. I know I’m gonna get seriously flamed for that but he’s in business so he needs USPs. And ideas like that seem to be his.

I have to disagree! I see what Poliquin’s saying about the bb row. I’ve seen very few people do it with strict form.

That’s a stupid fucking statement.

Quit worrying about other people’s form and worry about your own. Form sucks? Take the weight down and tighten up.

The only reason people want to accept the dumbbell row argument is because they are easier. Period.

Fuck, most gyms don’t even have heavy enough bells for a reasonably strong lifter to get a meaningful workout, anyway.

Quit being a bunch of pussies and load the bar.

Just don’t be one of those douche bags doing a modified shrug calling it a row. If you are going to row, then for the love of God, row.
[/quote]

R u always so friendly??

I wasnt saying i dont do bb rows very often because other people dont do them right, i was just saying very few people do them right.

As i explained in an earlier post, when im squatting and romanian deadlifting in my program i dont think my low back needs any more strain. Therefore my back workouts usually consist of some of the following…weighted chins/pull up’s, hammer strength rows or one arm db rows.

And my backs probably my best bodypart.

I’d say do BB rows, they’re good. Another person could make an argument saying that one arm rows activates the biceps a lot?! lol
Anyways I’d use it.

Just do w/e works for you. Charles Poliquin is really intellegent and may know a lot but he doesn’t know everything.

I think the real question, from Polliquin’s quote, is is it okay to cheat a bit on the row and use your legs for some drive? Personally I feel it is. On most compound exercises like squat and bench if you cheat you are probably putting your body in a weird position and likely to get hurt, because you have no bigger muscles to use, but in a row you can use your legs a little (I am not talking about having a seizure while rowing) to get some momentum. This allows for more weight and more weight = increased strength and size. It is like a cheat curl, you can cheat in such a way so that your biceps actually work harder (especially since you can’t spot a BB row) and you can also cheat in a such a way that you work the muscle less by using too much momentum and body english. I say the former is good on most occasions and the later should be avoided. What do you guys think?

[quote]elliotnewman1 wrote:
apwsearch wrote:
elliotnewman1 wrote:
Hanley wrote:
I think that alot of the time he talks out of his arse. I know I’m gonna get seriously flamed for that but he’s in business so he needs USPs. And ideas like that seem to be his.

I have to disagree! I see what Poliquin’s saying about the bb row. I’ve seen very few people do it with strict form.

That’s a stupid fucking statement.

Quit worrying about other people’s form and worry about your own. Form sucks? Take the weight down and tighten up.

The only reason people want to accept the dumbbell row argument is because they are easier. Period.

Fuck, most gyms don’t even have heavy enough bells for a reasonably strong lifter to get a meaningful workout, anyway.

Quit being a bunch of pussies and load the bar.

Just don’t be one of those douche bags doing a modified shrug calling it a row. If you are going to row, then for the love of God, row.

R u always so friendly??

I wasnt saying i dont do bb rows very often because other people dont do them right, i was just saying very few people do them right.

As i explained in an earlier post, when im squatting and romanian deadlifting in my program i dont think my low back needs any more strain. Therefore my back workouts usually consist of some of the following…weighted chins/pull up’s, hammer strength rows or one arm db rows.

And my backs probably my best bodypart.

[/quote]

No, you caught me on one of my better days.

What I read in your post is akin to you saying to me “I am good enough so I don’t need to do anything different, and I certainly wouldn’t want to work any harder.”

You state that you think your back gets enough “strain” doing squats and RDL’s.

I find this pretty fucking amusing. I would state it sounds to me like you need to raise your work capacity.

Allow me to remind you this is the strength sports forum.

Most people posting here will never feel they are good enough and will leave no rock unturned in their quest for strength. We will always be looking for an edge.

So, congratulations on being satisfied but don’t expect to find many on this forum echoing that same sentiment.

[quote]elliotnewman1 wrote:
…weighted chins/pull up’s, hammer strength rows or one arm db rows.

And my backs probably my best bodypart.

[/quote]

      Good to see you doing weighted chins, All rows are good but i particularly like BB rows, nothing like getting some solid weight up with these.
      They go well with weighted chins, nothing like combining these two movements, try some arched back goodmornings to help if needed with your lower back, they are a good alt movement for Romanians or another movement to increase overall load, all the best with your training.

When I used to work in a gym and people did bb rows, I would either see some sort of a shrug or people using awful form while doing them (rounding their backs) especially when the weights got heavy.

I prefer chins/pull ups to them, because I think that they are somewhat of a risky exercise and my back gets enough punishment from squats, deadlifts,etc.

[quote]apwsearch wrote:
elliotnewman1 wrote:
apwsearch wrote:
elliotnewman1 wrote:
Hanley wrote:
I think that alot of the time he talks out of his arse. I know I’m gonna get seriously flamed for that but he’s in business so he needs USPs. And ideas like that seem to be his.

I have to disagree! I see what Poliquin’s saying about the bb row. I’ve seen very few people do it with strict form.

That’s a stupid fucking statement.

Quit worrying about other people’s form and worry about your own. Form sucks? Take the weight down and tighten up.

The only reason people want to accept the dumbbell row argument is because they are easier. Period.

Fuck, most gyms don’t even have heavy enough bells for a reasonably strong lifter to get a meaningful workout, anyway.

Quit being a bunch of pussies and load the bar.

Just don’t be one of those douche bags doing a modified shrug calling it a row. If you are going to row, then for the love of God, row.

R u always so friendly??

I wasnt saying i dont do bb rows very often because other people dont do them right, i was just saying very few people do them right.

As i explained in an earlier post, when im squatting and romanian deadlifting in my program i dont think my low back needs any more strain. Therefore my back workouts usually consist of some of the following…weighted chins/pull up’s, hammer strength rows or one arm db rows.

And my backs probably my best bodypart.

No, you caught me on one of my better days.

What I read in your post is akin to you saying to me “I am good enough so I don’t need to do anything different, and I certainly wouldn’t want to work any harder.”

You state that you think your back gets enough “strain” doing squats and RDL’s.

I find this pretty fucking amusing. I would state it sounds to me like you need to raise your work capacity.

Allow me to remind you this is the strength sports forum.

Most people posting here will never feel they are good enough and will leave no rock unturned in their quest for strength. We will always be looking for an edge.

So, congratulations on being satisfied but don’t expect to find many on this forum echoing that same sentiment.[/quote]

Did i say i was satisfied? Your inventing stuff i havent said. When did i say i do the exercises i do and dont try and increase my weights on them. Answer…i didnt

[quote]elliotnewman1 wrote:
Hanley wrote:
I think that alot of the time he talks out of his arse. I know I’m gonna get seriously flamed for that but he’s in business so he needs USPs. And ideas like that seem to be his.

I have to disagree! I see what Poliquin’s saying about the bb row. I’ve seen very few people do it with strict form.

[/quote]

True. In most cases, people have a tendency to heave a heavy load and are performing what appears to be an upright version of a row with a short range of motion. Not exactly hitting the lats when you perform BB rows this way.

[quote]JACKED71 wrote:
elliotnewman1 wrote:
Hanley wrote:
I think that alot of the time he talks out of his arse. I know I’m gonna get seriously flamed for that but he’s in business so he needs USPs. And ideas like that seem to be his.

I have to disagree! I see what Poliquin’s saying about the bb row. I’ve seen very few people do it with strict form.

True. In most cases, people have a tendency to heave a heavy load and are performing what appears to be an upright version of a row with a short range of motion. Not exactly hitting the lats when you perform BB rows this way.[/quote]

Chins/pulls are way better for the lats IMO, especially since they take a fatugued lower back out of it and the chance of back injury, especially the way that most jokers do them.

[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
Chins/pulls are way better for the lats IMO, especially since they take a fatugued lower back out of it and the chance of back injury, especially the way that most jokers do them.

[/quote]

Chins and pull-ups are great, no argument there, but the bent over row allows more load than any other back exercise so that is something it has going for it. Doing it at a 45 degree angle puts minimal load on the lower back (as opposed to the 90 degree version which admittedly does put a lot of load on the LB).

[quote]nptitim wrote:
Julius_Caesar wrote:
Chins/pulls are way better for the lats IMO, especially since they take a fatugued lower back out of it and the chance of back injury, especially the way that most jokers do them.

Chins and pull-ups are great, no argument there, but the bent over row allows more load than any other back exercise so that is something it has going for it. Doing it at a 45 degree angle puts minimal load on the lower back (as opposed to the 90 degree version which admittedly does put a lot of load on the LB).[/quote]

I do the 45 degree sometimes with a training partner who lets me know the second that I lose the arch in my back and then I either drop it, or arch again. Sometimes if you are trying to grind out a rep or a weight, you will not even notice that you lose the arch.
This is putting your back in a compromising position. This is what most people who do, who aren’t doing the shrug/row hybrid do when they do them.

[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:

Chins/pulls are way better for the lats IMO, especially since they take a fatugued lower back out of it and the chance of back injury, especially the way that most jokers do them.

[/quote]

They train the lats in a complete different way tho. They basically ignore scapular retraction. Which isn’t good if you’re trying to build a bug bench or keep good posture.

[quote]Hanley wrote:

They train the lats in a complete different way tho. They basically ignore scapular retraction. Which isn’t good if you’re trying to build a bug bench or keep good posture.[/quote]

But from personal experience, chin-ups/pull-ups have boosted my bench.

[quote]Hanley wrote:
Julius_Caesar wrote:

Chins/pulls are way better for the lats IMO, especially since they take a fatugued lower back out of it and the chance of back injury, especially the way that most jokers do them.

They train the lats in a complete different way tho. They basically ignore scapular retraction. Which isn’t good if you’re trying to build a bug bench or keep good posture.[/quote]

You should still be retracted when you do pull-ups and chins. It is easier with pull-ups, but even with chins at the end you would be retracted.

[quote]nptitim wrote:
Hanley wrote:
Julius_Caesar wrote:

Chins/pulls are way better for the lats IMO, especially since they take a fatugued lower back out of it and the chance of back injury, especially the way that most jokers do them.

They train the lats in a complete different way tho. They basically ignore scapular retraction. Which isn’t good if you’re trying to build a bug bench or keep good posture.

You should still be retracted when you do pull-ups and chins. It is easier with pull-ups, but even with chins at the end you would be retracted.[/quote]

You cannot honestly say that they’re simialr movements??

I found that I was cheating my BB rows. My solution - I set up a bench at an incline, fold up a towel and place it on the end, place my forehead on the towel, bend over and row. I am able to keep my back nearly parallel with the floor, and I know if I’ve cheated if the towel under my forehead hits the floor. Simple and has worked for me. My $0.02.

Sometimes my lower back hurts when i go heavier with these, i was thinkin about doin them with my ass to the wall, just something to kind of hold it against as im rowing, figure it wud take some pressure off and maybe also help form because it wud give feedback for keeping hips level and still throughout the movement. anyone try this?

[quote]Hanley wrote:
You should still be retracted when you do pull-ups and chins. It is easier with pull-ups, but even with chins at the end you would be retracted.

You cannot honestly say that they’re simialr movements??[/quote]

I don’t understand your question. Do you disagree that you are retracted at the end (chin above the bar) of both a pull-up (pronated) and a chin-up (supinated)?

[quote]nptitim wrote:
Hanley wrote:
You should still be retracted when you do pull-ups and chins. It is easier with pull-ups, but even with chins at the end you would be retracted.

You cannot honestly say that they’re simialr movements??

I don’t understand your question. Do you disagree that you are retracted at the end (chin above the bar) of both a pull-up (pronated) and a chin-up (supinated)?[/quote]

No no, I’m disputing the fact that someone can say a chin/pull up is similar to a bent over row.